The Cam and Vala discussion thread

[ParadoxRealities]

I think we never going to end it

exactly.

I did not say they killed it. I say CAM and Vala animated the series. I just stated that change, and by this I mean CAM, was introduced in a very flawed way...

i think maylet was talking to me, Integrabyte.

Cool, I'm glad that you have the same idea than me

See we can end the thread now, we both think that they didn't kill the show.

ok, cool. bye. we'll be here if you ever change your mind (about leaving).

[Integrabyte]

See we can end the thread now, we both think that they didn't kill the show.

We speak for everyone?

[Tracy Jane]

Hmmm. You know, I was thinking about what was said; Carter not being a good leader figure. I think that depends on what you deem to be a good leader.

There are the figureheads, those who seem to have little intelligence or skill, but have the background, the personality and the presence to pull around a team. They tend to be the leaders that are at the forefront of everything, yet you never see them doing much other than cracking a few jokes whilst the team behind work their backsides off.

Then you have the leader who is part of the team, rather than the leader who "is" the team. This kind of leader knows how to delegate, gives credit where it's due, encourages both professional and personal development amongst their team rather than quashing it and taking credit themselves. They're the sort of leader that you don't realise is leading, because they make the decision that every member of their team is equally important, yet will shoulder the blame and take responsibility when things go wrong.

Honestly? I think Sam would make a good leader in that second role. She knows her strengths and the strengths of her team members, she knows when it is time to take over and when it is time to let her team do their job. I don't think Mitchell does.

Look at the way Mitchell leads and the way Sam leads. You say she doesn't rise to the occasion, doesn't step into the leadership role. If you look at episodes like Unending as well as others, I would disagree. She knows how to lead but she knows how to be a member of the team. She doesn't feel the need to stomp around wearing her command boots. She knows how her team works, they trust her, and for that exact reason, she doesn't NEED to flex her muscles so much, unlike the "new guy" who feels he has something to prove.

[Skydiver]

i work wiht a lot of hte former. men suffering from 'short man syndrome'

ones that need to throw thier weight around to make people respect them. they equate fear with respect. they get off making rules and regs to mess with those below them.

cam was never that bad. never. Bauer is the most close to 'short man syndrome' that's been on the show.

but i gotta tell ya while i acknowledge that my boss is my boss. that he has the ability to m uck with my life and cook up a reason to fire me...i don't respect him. In fact, i hold him in a certain level of contempt because i can see right through him and his little games.

[nihela]

i work wiht a lot of hte former. men suffering from 'short man syndrome'

ones that need to throw thier weight around to make people respect them. they equate fear with respect. they get off making rules and regs to mess with those below them.

cam was never that bad. never. Bauer is the most close to 'short man syndrome' that's been on the show.

but i gotta tell ya while i acknowledge that my boss is my boss. that he has the ability to m uck with my life and cook up a reason to fire me...i don't respect him. In fact, i hold him in a certain level of contempt because i can see right through him and his little games.

Denise, be careful he might be lurking on Gateworld

[SG13-NightOps]

Let us not fool ourselves. If we are criticising something let us do it properly. Nobody was qualified to lead SG 1,except SAM,Daniel or Teal'c.

Yes, but Sam was at Area 51, Daniel was leaving for Atlantis, and Teal'c had returned to the Jaffa.
When Cam came in, there was no SG1. It was basically going to be a Whole New Team. And I would say a Colonel who clearly has knowledge and training in Alien existence to have been a pat of the dog fight with anubis in the first place, is qualified to be leader of a whole new team based on the fact that the leader is always a Colonel - and usually has prior knowledge of this whole stargate thing.

I actually liked how he was introduced as I wasnt reading anything spoilerish at the time, so I had no idea what they were going to do with the team, I had no idea if Sam, Daniel and Teal'c were going to go back to SG1 or not. I knew nothing of Ben Browder. It made the whole thing far more acceptable because it was easier to swallow without prior knowledge that getting the band back together was always going to happen. I mean, Jack was there, and I DID know he was leaving - but that was all. So for all I knew, any one of the other members could have been leaving the show too.

I hope my meaning is not lost in that babble.

[suse]

Yes, but Sam was at Area 51, Daniel was leaving for Atlantis, and Teal'c had returned to the Jaffa.
When Cam came in, there was no SG1. It was basically going to be a Whole New Team. And I would say a Colonel who clearly has knowledge and training in Alien existence to have been a pat of the dog fight with anubis in the first place, is qualified to be leader of a whole new team based on the fact that the leader is always a Colonel - and usually has prior knowledge of this whole stargate thing.

I actually liked how he was introduced as I wasnt reading anything spoilerish at the time, so I had no idea what they were going to do with the team, I had no idea if Sam, Daniel and Teal'c were going to go back to SG1 or not. I knew nothing of Ben Browder. It made the whole thing far more acceptable because it was easier to swallow without prior knowledge that getting the band back together was always going to happen. I mean, Jack was there, and I DID know he was leaving - but that was all. So for all I knew, any one of the other members could have been leaving the show too.

I hope my meaning is not lost in that babble.

Knowing aliens exist is not training. It's information. He was *trained* to be a pilot. Not conduct first contact situations. Unless of course the first contact was in a war. Fly, aim, shoot. That's his training.

It's a given he had to have some type of leadership training. Some of the training could cross over but leading a specialized team of pilots is far different from leading a specialized team that combines soldiering, first contact diplomacy and science. And can easily end in ground skirmishes.

**Pilots do not focus on training for ground troops.** Not any more. Piloting is so specialized these days that all the pilots time is taken up keeping the skill set needed to keep the reflexes.

The "band was broken up" because the writers decided to break it up. There was certainly no indication SG-1 (consisting of Sam, Daniel and Teal'c) was going to break up at the end of S8. It was a ploy to get the Lead Male Action Hero where someone wanted him to be. In spite of it making no logical sense *as written*. TPTB tried to have it both ways and it blew up in their faces.

I like farcical shows. But only when they are set up to be that way. Monty Python comes to mind. But when a show that used to try to get the details right suddenly ignores them and goes for the "sexy and fun" aspect (Vala) and has to move characters off the board (Sam and Teal'c) to create SG-me so Cam has the 'right' to lead as no one was *there*...well, something in rotten in Burnaby.

My conclusion is that "our" SG-1 died in Ancient Egypt and the story is now following a farcial AU of SG-1. Because this never would have happened to "our" team. I think Gekko (Michael Greenburg and Richard Dean Anderson) who were stablizing force of the show. When they left (Greenburg after S7, RDA after S8) most of the common sense attention to continuity/canon details left also.

If S9/S10 are the type of stories Wright/Cooper wanted to tell for years SG-1 would have been cancelled years ago. Because that's the impression I got from their interviews for S9.

suse

[SG13-NightOps]

Knowing aliens exist is not training. It's information. He was *trained* to be a pilot. Not conduct first contact situations. Unless of course the first contact was in a war. Fly, aim, shoot. That's his training.

It's a given he had to have some type of leadership training. Some of the training could cross over but leading a specialized team of pilots is far different from leading a specialized team that combines soldiering, first contact diplomacy and science. And can easily end in ground skirmishes.

**Pilots do not focus on training for ground troops.** Not any more. Piloting is so specialized these days that all the pilots time is taken up keeping the skill set needed to keep the reflexes.

Considering Jack O'Neill was Airforce too, I suppose that was his training too.. no?

The "band was broken up" because the writers decided to break it up. There was certainly no indication SG-1 (consisting of Sam, Daniel and Teal'c) was going to break up at the end of S8. It was a ploy to get the Lead Male Action Hero where someone wanted him to be. In spite of it making no logical sense *as written*. TPTB tried to have it both ways and it blew up in their faces.

There was also no indication they would stay together either. They were fishing. And Daniel wanted to go to Atlantis before S8 ended. Teal'c chieved freedom for all Jaffa and it wouldnt be unbelieveable that now the fight with the Goa'uld was over, he would want to return home. The "band was broken up" for acceptable in the canon, reasons. At that point in time, they didnt even have a Big Bad to fight, so SG1 would be a bunch of "Hi, no we have liberated you from the Goa'uld, lets help you get yourselves set up" style team. I dont think that is really in Teal'c make up, and well out of Sam's line of work. Could have worked for Daniel, but as before said, he REALLY wanted to go to Atlantis.

I like farcical shows. But only when they are set up to be that way. Monty Python comes to mind. But when a show that used to try to get the details right suddenly ignores them and goes for the "sexy and fun" aspect (Vala) and has to move characters off the board (Sam and Teal'c) to create SG-me so Cam has the 'right' to lead as no one was *there*...well, something in rotten in Burnaby.

My conclusion is that "our" SG-1 died in Ancient Egypt and the story is now following a farcial AU of SG-1. Because this never would have happened to "our" team. I think Gekko (Michael Greenburg and Richard Dean Anderson) who were stablizing force of the show. When they left (Greenburg after S7, RDA after S8) most of the common sense attention to continuity/canon details left also.

If S9/S10 are the type of stories Wright/Cooper wanted to tell for years SG-1 would have been cancelled years ago. Because that's the impression I got from their interviews for S9.

suse

I tend to watch TV as an escape from overthinking things. If I was going to dump every show I watch the minute we hit a plot hole so big a person could climb out of it, or something that didnt quite seem 100% right, then I would have stopped watching MASH when they brought in Houlahans dad as a guest. He was dead in the earlier seasons.

This is the funny thing. I was reading other people saying they hate that thing that happens in Sunday because they dont watch Sci Fi for the realism. Then they go off on "but its not realistic" tangents when they see something not realistic.

I just decided that you cant please everyone all the time, and nor should anyone be forced to try to... .

[RealmOfX]

Considering Jack O'Neill was Airforce too, I suppose that was his training too.. no?

You're joking right?

Jack O'Neill was Special Forces - you know, trained in highly specialised ground ops.

He wasn't an untrained for the job doofus just out of the cockpit and returned from learning to walk again!

Jack O'Neill had relevant experience. Lt Colonel Greenie had read reports and there were plenty of other much more experienced and trained personnel available.

[jenks]

Mitchell has had special forces training too.

[RealmOfX]

Mitchell has had special forces training too.

That was a throw away line that I took as a joke because it is obvious that he hadn't had any such training AND there wouldn't have been any time to have been Special Forces and still be the supposed hot shot ACTIVE pilot.

[jenks]

That was a throw away line that I took as a joke because it is obvious that he hadn't had any such training AND there wouldn't have been any time to have been Special Forces and still be the supposed hot shot ACTIVE pilot.

Well you can believe what you like, but it's cannon wether you like it or not.

[RealmOfX]

Well you can believe what you like, but it's cannon wether you like it or not.

Seriously he was joking when he said it. That plus it was impossible with his career path so if you wanna believe something ridiculous go right ahead. TPTB wrote Mitchell all over the place so that he was a joke as an officer, it's one of the things I really hate about S9 - it totally was unnecessary and sloppy writing.

[SG13-NightOps]

You're joking right?

Jack O'Neill was Special Forces - you know, trained in highly specialised ground ops.

He wasn't an untrained for the job doofus just out of the cockpit and returned from learning to walk again!

No, he was just an also untrained for interplanetairy expediton trauma induced mental case with a death wish.

I think at this point when my snarkasm meter is going feral, which makes any further discussion pointless. I gave my opinion and no longer feel a need to justify it, so I shall agree to disagree with all the people that dislike Cam.

[RealmOfX]

No, he was just an also untrained for interplanetairy expediton trauma induced mental case with a death wish.

I think at this point when my snarkasm meter is going feral, which makes any further discussion pointless. I gave my opinion and no longer feel a need to justify it, so I shall agree to disagree with all the people that dislike Cam.

Who said anything about disliking Cam? I was commenting on who was available, as in the qualified and trained capacity, at the time of Cam's appointment, sadly he didn't make that list and that is what is so ridiculous about it. It was totally unnecessary to write it that way.

As for O'Niell, no one was trained for offworld activities at that time because it was a brand new occurence so they took the best available, it was a bonus that he was judged suicidal because it made a good fit with the suicide mission. They picked one of the best and most suitable available at the time. Unfortunately the same cannot be said for Cam, as had been previously established in canon he wasn't qualified to lead anyone let alone the top team.