The Cam and Vala discussion thread

[suse]

Both "Crusade" and "Flesh and Blood" were written by Rob Cooper. And he's the ONLY ONE who writes Vala WELL (Avalon pt. 2/Origin are another great examples of this). And he talks to Claudia about the character and listens to her ideas.

And then cuts those ideas for time.
Reference of course to the "whorelette" (CB's own words) aspects of Vala as written in TTTB (I think)

IMO:Too bad he doesn't seem to give others the same courtesy.

Suse

[Pitry]

Both "Crusade" and "Flesh and Blood" were written by Rob Cooper. And he's the ONLY ONE who writes Vala WELL (Avalon pt. 2/Origin are another great examples of this). And he talks to Claudia about the character and listens to her ideas.

Sorry, I guess this is a point where we differ. Whil I loved Crusade, I prefer Vala written anoyingly childish adn have the rest of the episode excellent, a-la PEgasus Project, rather than have Vala written in top form and have the rest of the episode disappointing, a-la Flesh and Blood. RCC is my favourite Stargate writer, but when it comes to Flesh adn Blood, he blew it, IMHO.

[Farscapefan]

Sorry, I guess this is a point where we differ. Whil I loved Crusade, I prefer Vala written anoyingly childish adn have the rest of the episode excellent, a-la PEgasus Project, rather than have Vala written in top form and have the rest of the episode disappointing, a-la Flesh and Blood. RCC is my favourite Stargate writer, but when it comes to Flesh adn Blood, he blew it, IMHO.

Why exactly?

[Pitry]

Why exactly?

Well, to have Teal'c some it up, "I do not understadn why everythign in this scfript must inevitably explode".

RCC's become my favourite Stargate writer because most of his episodes are strong on the human angle. From Torment of Tantalus and The Fifth Race, From Maternal Instinct through Meridian to Zero Hour, And even his bigger episodes usually have a centre point aroudn the people - Heroes, There But for the Grace of God, Fair Game, In the Line of Duty, Redemption, Avalon/ origin and Crusade. Flesh adn Bloo,d however, had a similar problem to Fallen, the episode rushed so impossibly fast from one action serquence to another that it didn't stop to consider the people behind these explotions. And so what could have been good, human emotional scenes came out empty.

Unlike a lot of other peopel in htis thread, I don't think it's a regular problem with him, and I fully expect his next episode to be able to compensate. I jsut think that somwhere along the way, Flesh adn Blood got hte short end of the stick.

[pittsburghgirl]

all RCC has shown me is what Sky has referred to as the "3B's"-boobs, butts and bombs.

[Skydiver]

with the most recent exception of Sateda, i feel that coop's work is best when he has a good beta.

someone to go over it, find the cliches and tighten it up a bit. and hwo knows, maybe brad did that with sateda.

brad has said that it wasn't unknown for him to tweak to totally rewrite the others' scripts

that's what always makes me shake my head at some of his recent work. he CAN do great stuff. But either through a lack of caring, tiredness, over work or others' orders, he hasn't been doing that much lately. AT least not in my definition of 'good'

[majorsal]

You know Sally, I see it this way, since TPTB don't follow their own history/cannon, then nothing they have done since the beginning of S9 can be cosidered cannon IMO.

Yep, it's Felger in that VR machine

hey, that makes sense! thanks!





sally

[cavalierlwt]

I don't think Vala had anything to do with it.

I say SciFi is kind of risk averse and pessimistic when it comes down to brass tacks. They killed Farscape and SG-1 (both with decent ratings) because in their eyes the cost vs. ratings equation was right on the line, and the tie breaker to them is how look toward the future: for Farscape they didn't see much hope of improvement due to the serial nature of the show, and in the case of SG-1 I think they were pessimistic due to the changeover of the bad guys from Goauld to the Ori, and the general changing of the guard with cast members.

IMHO they looked at that changeover as it either takes off like rocket or they ditch it for a new series with higher growth potential.

Next show to start worrying about: Battlestar Galactica!

[esoap524]

I don't think Vala had anything to do with it.

I say SciFi is kind of risk averse and pessimistic when it comes down to brass tacks. They killed Farscape and SG-1 (both with decent ratings) because in their eyes the cost vs. ratings equation was right on the line, and the tie breaker to them is how look toward the future: for Farscape they didn't see much hope of improvement due to the serial nature of the show, and in the case of SG-1 I think they were pessimistic due to the changeover of the bad guys from Goauld to the Ori, and the general changing of the guard with cast members.

IMHO they looked at that changeover as it either takes off like rocket or they ditch it for a new series with higher growth potential.

Next show to start worrying about: Battlestar Galactica!

The only reason I'm not too worried about Battlestar is that NBC owns it (I think!) and it gets a hell of a lot of press. Every time I open up Yahoo TV, there's something about Battlestar. We'll see how the move to Sunday works out.

Your analysis seems reasonable--FS, due to its cost and serialized nature, wasn't growing. SG1, due to its cost and just the fact that the show's been around for 10 years, has reached the point of diminishing returns.

[esoap524]

Why exactly?

For one thing, it seemed very hit and miss.

It's interesting to me. I watched this episode with 4 friends. One has watched the show from day one. One started watching it for a couple of episodes for Ben and Claudia, then got bored. Two others only came to watch it because we were having a party--they're both Farscape/Ben/Claudia fans but won't watch a show just because they're in it. Then there was me.

To a person (all women), they felt the only time anything sort of interesting was going on was when Daniel and Vala were involved. The rest was just filler, to the point where one of my friends said "Poor Ben, stuck in such a boring role."

My point is...the episode itself didn't give the characters, with the exception of Vala, and to a lesser extent, Daniel, anything to do. Lots of standing around, chatting, then finally blowing **** up. For the Vala-freaks among us, yeah, great, but we still had to wade thru 30 minutes of other stuff that wasn't particularly riveting.

I think part of why this episode didn't work was the flashback nature of the way the story was told in filling out what had happened to the team. I wasn't overly concerned about Sam getting scooped up by the ship--you knew she would so what was the point?

That, for me, was the reason why this episode isn't great. It's a good Vala character episode--very good, actually, because her interactions with Tomin and her daughter feel very real, as does her alliance with Daniel and his reaction to her situation. As for the other three...it really wouldn't have mattered if they were there or not, as far as their characterizations were concerned.

[Jackie]

The ori killed SG-1! The Ori is the most boring, blan, lifeless bad guy EVER! I am trying to write for the Ori in a fic--I can't--they are too boring.

If an actual Ori being were to show up and do something nasty it would be better. But they are so lame--OMG--The Goa'uld are a blast to wright!

Ba'al is a joke but Hathor and Anubis are great fun. The replicators sucked because of lackluster too. The Priors are just stupid reocord players and not fun with in the least. They are not suspensful and Adria is the most fun to write for about a whole half a paragraph.

Perhaps if the show had a lively bad guy, Daniel/Vala wouldn't have become such a center piece.

[Skydiver]

As for the other three...it really wouldn't have mattered if they were there or not, as far as their characterizations were concerned.

and that's the problem for a lot of us. If you're not a fan of Vaniel...what's left for you????

Coop's obsession with Vaniel means that he's summarily ignored and shoved into the corner anyone and everyone that isn't Vaniel.

which means, in effect, he's told everyone who's not a Vaniel fan to bugger off.

the balance that the show used to have is gone. Before coop got his paws on it, there was a balance. Everyone got thier moment in the sun.

Now, they make the easy excuse 'rda's schedule messed with our filming' to explain the pattern that developed in s7 of 'all sam episode, all daniel episode, sam and the guest star, daniel and the guest star, token teal'c eps' etc

we got a lot of stuff like Enemy MIne where jack had a token appearance, sam a literal cameo, and the other 41 minutes were all daniel with teal'c standing in the corner. or eps like Grace, which was all sam with little bits of the boys tossed in

the eps were written to split up the cast, amanda went off unit 1 to tape one eps, and michael went off with unit 2 to tape another eps and chris went off with unit 3 to tape a third.

instead of doing one eps every 7 days, they tried to do 2-3 eps at once. and it hurt the show because it split up the team

but when rda was gone and ben was there to work 14+ hours a day...that excuse shouldn't have worked anymore. cept it seems that the writers are in such a rut they CAN'T write real team stuff anymore. They just pick one aspect that they like and focus on it...and there seems to be no control to say 'umm, yeah, sure, but you know vala hit on the air man in the last 4 episodes, ya wanna try something different????' or 'when did cam become special ops???'

there's still fragmented writing and taping, there's little to no quality control and there's an obsessed focus on coop's favored characters adn storyline

and now instead of a well rounded, intelligent and fun show we have cliche of the week, polarizing focuses on only one aspect and a few too many dips into the Frat House humor pot.

Coop may love and adore and almost worship all things Vaniel and Ori...but not all of his audience does. and the fact that he's not keeping an audience speaks wonders about how wise his decision is to focus solely on one aspect adn forget all the rest.

Making a tv show is like planning a menu for a group. If you want everyone to go away full, you serve a little of everything. but if you serve only Brussles Sprouts...then dont' be surprised if your 'guests' come up with excuses and go somewhere else to get thier meat and potatoes

[pittsburghgirl]

you see-the whole discussion we are having here just reinforces my confusion about one major point. Why are the people in charge not paying attention? I don't think that any of us here are against the influx of new blood-sometimes change -as the song says-will do you good. I certainly had no problem with CB and BB joining the show-it was time. But along with the cast changes there ought to have been some writing changes. They now have everybody they need to do their episodes, when they are needed to do their episodes and the flexibility to maneuver around those that are not. But they are still acting like we only have what'shis(her)name for 3 days this week and we have to shoot episode xyz-and they shoot aroud and shoot around. that isn't necessary anymore. yet they still write these disjointed episodes-so not only does the story suffer but the character suffers because-as a friend of mine once told me about coming home and not knowing what kind of mood her mother was in-was either taking a bow or ducking-they are the same motion they just mean different things at different times depending on the situation.

[Rogue]

As for the other three...it really wouldn't have mattered if they were there or not, as far as their characterizations were concerned.

Exactly. The team aspect of SG-1 is gone. If you don't care for Vala, or Daniel or RCC current favorite shipping pair Vaniel, there is really nothing for you. I am puzzled as to why TPTB would alienate fan bases. I would think with out RDA, TPTB would have wanted to capitalize on the other fan bases to keep the show a float while the new characters are introduced and accepted.

[pittsburghgirl]

i can only think that they don't give a rat's tushie hair about what the fandom would like. they are not writing for us-they are writing for themselves and their vision and if we like it fine-if not-well-to use a phrase that Sky used-we can all "bugger off"