S10: Critique & Contemplation

[Skydiver]

that is one of the issues with vala's behavior. not that they had fun with her. i can certainly see the appeal of that, but that no one ever caleld her on it. beyond a couple of landry's comments about 'i'm in command' no one ever said 'vala, you need to chill'

how she was acting was fun to watch, and i can certainly see the humorous appeal. but it just didn't fit in the show. it'd be kinda like taking a character from The Office and assigning them to the SGC but still have tehm act like theyd on The Office.

decent enough character on their own, but not in the existing confines of the show

[JessM]

Either proves that RCC still can't write relationships.

Both sound equally as bad.

I have no problem with ship. I actually like a little romance mixed into my shows. And I really didn't have a huge problem with Daniel/Vala (besides the two of them being joined at the hip) until "Unending." I did prefer Vala more when she was paired off with the other characters, but I was fine with some fans thinking they were in love. I would even have been fine with TPTB finally getting them together and confirming the ship as canon. I have a sort of 'live and let live' philosophy about ship. As long as you don't rag on my ship, I will happily let you enjoy yours.

But that scene destroyed any tolerance I had for that pairing. And it did a lot to damage any positive feelings I had built up for Vala. It also made me mad b/c it confirmed what a miserable person Daniel had become and made me wonder why I had ever really liked him.

To treat a woman you supposedly love like that is inexcusable. To allow a man to say those kinds of things to you and then sleep with him is a form of self-abuse. The Vala I had gradually come to like would not have put up with that kind of treatment. I don't care if Daniel needed to look more "macho." There is a difference between showing the audience the character is not a push-over and portraying him as a mean, rude bully who feels the need to verbally abuse women. (Sorry for the rant, but that scene really got on my nerves.)

But then again, I try to forget that "Unending" ever happened. In my mind, Thor and the Asgard are still very much alive and thriving in the Ida Galaxy.

I'm the same way, basically ship and let ship. I have no problem with anyone's ship preference, as long as they don't have any problem with mine.

I've never really been able to *see* Daniel/Vala even though I know others happily shipped them. My main beef was the way they seemed joined at the hip in almost every episode. But I did lose a lot of respect for both characters in Unending. I was always a big Daniel fan, and now I'm almost take him or leave him (although I guess that could be explained by the fact that we now have Jackson instead).

Really, the way it came out made Daniel (or should I say Jackson) look really mean. What woman in their right mind, would sleep with him after being treated like that.

I much preferred how Daniel acted towards Sara/Osiris, even when she was a Goa'uld

It did, and it made it seem as if Vala didn't have any self respect. I wouldn't let a guy jump in bed with me after verbally ripping me to shreds like that. I'd smack him, or I'd just leave the room and never look back. But Coop had to make it all come together this way...

[Nikki]

Both sound equally as bad.

I have no problem with ship. I actually like a little romance mixed into my shows. And I really didn't have a huge problem with Daniel/Vala (besides the two of them being joined at the hip) until "Unending." I did prefer Vala more when she was paired off with the other characters, but I was fine with some fans thinking they were in love. I would even have been fine with TPTB finally getting them together and confirming the ship as canon. I have a sort of 'live and let live' philosophy about ship. As long as you don't rag on my ship, I will happily let you enjoy yours.

But that scene destroyed any tolerance I had for that pairing. And it did a lot to damage any positive feelings I had built up for Vala. It also made me mad b/c it confirmed what a miserable person Daniel had become and made me wonder why I had ever really liked him.

To treat a woman you supposedly love like that is inexcusable. To allow a man to say those kinds of things to you and then sleep with him is a form of self-abuse. The Vala I had gradually come to like would not have put up with that kind of treatment. I don't care if Daniel needed to look more "macho." There is a difference between showing the audience the character is not a push-over and portraying him as a mean, rude bully who feels the need to verbally abuse women. (Sorry for the rant, but that scene really got on my nerves.)

But then again, I try to forget that "Unending" ever happened. In my mind, Thor and the Asgard are still very much alive and thriving in the Ida Galaxy.

A fantastic post - it's like you know exactly how I feel and put it into words. I couldn't agree with you more on every count and unfortunately have to admit that I to am no longer a Daniel fan. I was exactly the same as you with Vaniel/Dala to, I tolerated it during 9/10 as I didn't actually see it but Unending just obliterated that tolerance and now I just hate it.

Vaniel had no romance in the ship. It was just an abusive, barfly ship. Unending never happened as far as I'm concerned too. Thor is alive and well.

Exactly! The whole point of ship is to add romance, love, affection and Vaniel/Dala had none of that and I think after Unending you described the relationship between the two perfectly.

[Jackie]

Jack and Sam had far more romance than Daniel/Vala--and they were never officially together. (so far)

After they got the ship together...Vala/Daniel turned into the boring old couple.

At least Vala stopped wearing the tight clothes in her old age but the make up for them as old people was horrible anyways.

of course, Vala and Daniel were just the tip of the ice berg on what was wrong with the series final.

Let's not forget the Asgard's suicide which blew canon right out of the water. A true shark jumping moment. Sam...alone and with a cello. Cam running in circles. Landry grows a garden and poor teal'c gets the be the sap that has to remember it all.

Then there was the whole--time bubble reversing thing. Utterly stupid way to get them all trapped on a ship.

They should have just named the ship the Titanic and had everyone go down with it. By the end of that episode I felt like I just survived the sinking of the famous ship.

[Skydiver]

It did, and it made it seem as if Vala didn't have any self respect. I wouldn't let a guy jump in bed with me after verbally ripping me to shreds like that. I'd smack him, or I'd just leave the room and never look back. But Coop had to make it all come together this way...

yeah. that she was soooooo desperate to not be alone taht she'd jump into bed with anyone just to not jump there alone

I have an uncle like that. his wife is abusive. takes his money, he buys a car, she gets the title put in her name. she steals his mail.

we know it. he knows it. but he won't do anything about it because, if he does, he'll be alone. and he'd rather be abused than be alone

There are worse things in life than being alone (unless you're a female in a show that coop makes )

[Skydiver]

The whole point of ship is to add romance, love, affection

part of romance love and affection is mutual respect. Daniel obviously doesn't respect vala very much or he woudn't have said that. and even if he said it in anger (and who hasn't gotten angry and said things they regretted) i think they were lax in not showing him making up with her before the 'secks'

because by not showing that they made vala look weak and like she didn't even respect herself.

IMHO, if i had written it, vala would have stormed out. daniel would stand there with anger fading to regret...then during one of those danged montages we get him apologizing to her, or having sam conjur up a rose that he gives to vala, something like that.

give both characters some respect and dignity

[heliosphere]

It's sure not the same Daniel who brought a teddy bear to a baby in season 7. That Daniel might have been upset and yelled little bit at Vala- I think he was really defensive about her screwing with his heart like he thought she was and he had a right to be angry if he found himself falling in love with a you-know-what tease- but there'd be some groveling or asking for forgiveness at some point.

[Skydiver]

DANIEL would have apologized

jackson takes vala's feelings as if they are his due and seems to expect her to fall for him

[SciFiFan]

yeah. that she was soooooo desperate to not be alone taht she'd jump into bed with anyone just to not jump there alone

I have an uncle like that. his wife is abusive. takes his money, he buys a car, she gets the title put in her name. she steals his mail.

we know it. he knows it. but he won't do anything about it because, if he does, he'll be alone. and he'd rather be abused than be alone

There are worse things in life than being alone (unless you're a female in a show that coop makes )

A whole lotta worse things than being alone. The degresion of Vala's character in that one scene stunk. Daniel's didn't fare any better either. I would have slapped him silly and left myself.

I grew up watching a couple that were like that also, and it wasn't romantic, cute or any UST stuff, it was ugly and didn't end well.

[ReganX]

DANIEL would have apologized

jackson takes vala's feelings as if they are his due and seems to expect her to fall for him

Maybe ActionJackson has inside knowledge and knows that Coop will make sure that he gets the girl - no matter how much of a git he is.

[astrogeologist]

RE the earlier discussion about bringing in the stars of Farscape.

I still don't understand why Stargate's PTB thought it was a good idea.

It's very difficult to see an actor who has been in one lead role for years suddenly in a new role. I keep seeing the other character (the one that they did for years). And it can take quite some time for me to stop seeing them as their previous characters.

It's easier when their new role is in a completely different genre and they play a completely different character.

But a lead actor/actress from a recent scifi show moving over to another fairly contemporaneous scifi show to be lead actor/actress...??? Complete with wormholes and Ancients? That makes it very difficult to not see Mitchell as Crighton - and to keep comparing them for both similarities and contrasts. Mitchell is viewed with the very real spectre of Crighton in every scene.

Perhaps a bit easier with Aeryn Sun to Vala? But then there's Crighton/Mitchell the lead actor playing a pilot/astronaut to keep reminding one of Farscape.

So - I just don't get how Stargate's PTB thought they could somehow evade what so many other shows seem to acknowledge as a lethal pitfall.

When Bakula took the reigns as the captain of the Enterprise, I was skeptical as I figured I would continuously see him as the Quantum Leap scientist. In that case, however, the roles were significantly different - and there had been many years passed since Quantum Leap finished it's run and Enterprise began. The problems with Enterprise turned out not to be the casting of the leading man.

With Browder and Black, however, I think their roles on Farscape were too recent - and too close to Stargate - too close with wormholes and Ancients -- and too close with SciFi -- and too close in present time. Farscape just finished its run a few years ago - and might not even be finished now (I've heard there's the possibility for more episodes... webisodes even?).

I get the feeling (and that's just what it is, my feeling) that Stargate SG-1's PTB were enamored with Farscape and Crighton and Sun and Browder and Black. Not sure why, but kudos to Farscape and its actors for making such a positive impression on folks.

Demerits to Stargate's PTB for thinking that they could have Browder and Black as their 'actor toys' for SG-1. Demerits to Stargate's PTB for giving in to their temptations and desires to have those actors at the expense of the history and fabric of 8 previous years on Stargate. To rewrite and recreate SG-1 just to bring in the new characters was atrocious and insulting to long-time viewers who *liked* the previous eight years.

I've read many a post from folks who were tired of things from the previous 8 years, didn't like things from the previous 8 yeras, wanted change from the previous 8 years. And many of those folks posted statements of delight when SG-1 was broken apart to bring in Mitchell as the new leader.

Why insult and disappoint the long-time viewers and loyal fans who liked the first 8 years enough to want to see more?

At any rate, bringing in two of the lead actors from a contemporaneous scifi show... to be lead actors in another on-going scifi show on the same network...? Seems like a no-brainer that that's a no-go decision.

What hubris does it take to do it anyway?

I was one of the many fans who was insulted by Seasons 9 & 10.

[AGateFan]

It is difficult under the best of circumstances.
It didnt help that not only was Mitchell basically the same character, he went through the same arc (giddie newbie pushing the wrong buttons, to more serious superhero not caring about his own life and charging forward, to overserious grumpy guy that distance himself from people) he just didnt have a girlfriend to help absorb all his angst. Nor did he have any huge torture trauma to instigate the change on SG-1.

I can see why farscape fans were happy as an attempt was made to turn stargate into a more avantgard\innduendo laced\spaceship focused show like farscape. I just dont understand how they weren't horribly dissappointed with the execution. I mean Mitchell was almost completely ignored later in his run, and when he wasnt ignored he often looked bad. Vala, how is she not an insulting character to people that loved Areyn Sun? (as someone who liked Sun I was very dissappointed with the material CB was given).

Yes and I never understood (though my understanding is not required I know) why people who actually liked the first 8 years would be happy with the changes in S9-S10 when they clearly changed the show. If you loved those changes then it would seem you thought changes were needed. I mean I can see people "accepting" the changes and moving on...but to say these last two seasons were the best of SG-1 indicates to me they really didnt like SG-1 to begin with. Meaning if it was changed enough for some to start liking it, then it was changed enough for me to stop liking it. (Note I am not talking about actor changes, as they could have brought in one or two to repace RDA and wrote them INTO the SG universe and I would have been fine with it.....kind of like Atlantis is currently doing).

Why did they do it? Personal dislike of the SG universe? Desire for something of their own making? I know if I was suddenly given a chance to showrun Farscape I would want to make quite a few changes. Of course I probably wouldnt because I would be a pro and realize I have to write within the context of the universe and if I do a good job maybe I will get a chance to do my vision later. In this case though, TPTB decided to proceed with the spinnoff within the same series. I think they have inflicted a very serious wound to the show. More then I thought. I abandoned S10 but people at work watched it.....now I go to talk about Atlantis and they are all "meh" I recorded it or "I keep forgetting its on" or "Numbers is on" or "Not really interested" or some other excuse. I think killing the Asgard was the last straw for a lot of people. Oh well.

[jckfan55]

TPTB forgot what a good thing that had with the existing cast. As much as I love RDA, the show wasn't going to fall apart without him. You still had MS, CJ and AT. No need to revamp the cast and the direction & style of the show. And to mutate one of the characters. they forgot they had something that worked.

Did anyone catch "missing" on SGA? I had to wonder if

Spoiler:

the apparent demise of the Athosians was RCC's idea. You know with his penchant for killing off characters, races etc.

[Jackie]

I think too many fans tend to type cast the actors into their characters. TV is so real looking that people forget it's make believe and the actors are not like the people they portray.

Maybe it's do to the increased special effects or maybe because most popular actors can afford the luxury of privacy and not have to take multiple roles to remain employed. Maybe the casting directors tend to type cast the actors too.

My point is this: Are we so involved with the characters of a story that we can no longer tell reality from fantasy? Are we so far into the character that we cannot distinguish the character from the actor? Have we come to the point in our lives when TV characters are real to us? How many fans have convinced themselves that the Gate must be real?

If our society is coming to a point where fantasy is reality--then do the consequences of a negative action not exist in the mind of the viewer because so many times the hero always wins and therefore we have convinced ourselves that we will always win?

I find the notion that a man or woman cannot get a job because they played a popular character on a TV series disturbing. Since when should Ben B and CB worry about their new characters being not enough like their old characters?

I do have a handicapped child and I have to remind her that the Stargate is not real and that those people didn't really die--becuase to her if it's on TV it's real.

I think that "we" as a society need to step back and remind ourselves--this is all make believe.

[ReganX]

I find the notion that a man or woman cannot get a job because they played a popular character on a TV series disturbing. Since when should Ben B and CB worry about their new characters being not enough like their old characters?

To be honest, I would say that the fact that TPTB opted to bring both leads from a very recent sci-fi show onboard. In their shoes, I would have chosen one and stuck with him or her.

I haven’t seen anything of Farscape and have no intention of doing so, so I can’t say how like or unlike Mitchell and Vala are from Crichton and Aeryn Sun, but by bringing both BB and CB onboard, TPTB were putting themselves in an extremely difficult position; obviously, they wouldn’t want to leave themselves open to accusations that Mitchell and Vala were just Crichton and Aeryn Redux, but the alternative they seem to have opted for was to minimize their interactions – which means that they left themselves with a formerly tight-knit team which ended up having two members who couldn’t interact normally.

The result, as we have seen, was that Vala was chained to ActionJackson’s side and because with Mitchell often teamed up with Teal’c and Sam by herself – that’s not a team.

Maybe other writers and PTB would have been able to cope better, and treat the characters exactly as they would have treated them if two actors who had never been within a hundred miles of one another before were playing them, but unfortunately it seems that the Stargate ones couldn’t manage this.