S10: Critique & Contemplation

[the dancer of spaz]

The idea about AT splitting her time between the two series is not in and of itself necessarily bad, just like the idea of moving her to SGA for season 4 is not necessarily bad. They both have potential if well executed and not just a way of shunting Sam to the side because they can't figure out what to do with her.

It's not like they did much with her in season ten. She had two episodes and spent much of the rest of the time being wallpaper.

Yeah. And I guess we'd have to see what they were planning on doing with Carter to be sure. There could've been something really cool in the wings for her.

But my problem is, like Melora said, ship commanders are there for a few episodes every now and again and that's it. They don't necessarily take part in the action, and they're definitely only there for support.

If I had to estimate how many total episodes Carter would've been in between Atlantis and SG-1, I would have to guess no more than 12-15. There are only so many ways you can write a ship story.

I can't help but think that if they wanted Carter to be recurring on both series so badly, they really wouldn't have gone out of their way to give her meaty episodes. She would've just been there.

And I would've seriously had to find something else to watch on Fridays.

[Skydiver]

What can I say? The lack of consequences for anything is a major omission with the last two seasons. It's directly related to the lack of continuity.

and they do it all the time.

after replicarter, wouldn't it have made sense for daniel to be a bit leery of sam? even if instinctively

and yeah, mentioning the huge loss of jacob would have been nice. and janet being gone. and let's not forget jack - although coop seems to have

Then again, our 'heroes' screw up and no one even questins it.

the shroud

Spoiler:

daniel massacres all the ori and no one even bats an eye

Is one of the biggest examples.

I'm all for episodic, but it's like the writers go out of their way to NOT mention anything from the past or to have anything have consequences down the road

[Zoser]

Going back to the killing off characters issue...

I can handle characters' being killed off if it's well-written. (I can forgive a lot in the name of good writing.) Although I've missed Janet, her death was well-written and served a dramatic purpose. The timing in many ways could have been better (later in the series), but I do think it added jeopardy to the show in a way that hadn't been there before. My objection is that there were no consequences to her death shown in later episodes. Given the integral role she played in both the SGC and the lives of SG-1, it needed to be addressed.

That's why we have fanfic, right?

As far as Selmak's and Jacob's death was concerned, I like how they died for their cause, doing something that made a real difference. Considering the magnitude of what they achieved, it made sense that there would be a major sacrifice to be made. Once again though, there's no fallout. Sam would not be the only one who grieved his loss, and the Tok'ra should have still shown up somewhere.

What can I say? The lack of consequences for anything is a major omission with the last two seasons. It's directly related to the lack of continuity.

I agree about Janet and her loss was felt in Heroes - you would think that the new CMO might have a hard time coping with the exotic nature of the SGC assignment. All new CMO were boring - I like old Doc Warner better.

As for Jacob - I think it was a case of out with the old. The Tok'ra were only fun for TPTB if in opposition to the Goa'uld and they were just about toast - except for the brand new bouncy rapidly multiplying Ba'al.

[Rogue]

I just wonder if Contuum is Brad's soft reset of S9 and 10

see I can say things in a nice way

It would be wise, if they want the franchise to survive.

[Melora]

Holy crap. Link, please. (Not that I don't believe you. I just wanna read it. And watch someone else's DVDs. *I* sure haven't bought them.)

suse

I just want to clarify that I have not listened to the commentary myself. It might not be as bad as it sounds (tries to give TPTB the benefit of the doubt). I, too, have not seen fit to fork over money to buy season 10. I might do so when it goes on sale. But here is the link for the synopsis at Solution's LJ if you want to read it:

http://community.livejournal.com/sg1...94.html#cutid1

It thoroughly ticked me off when I read it. I'm just glad things didn't turn out the way they planned.

[the dancer of spaz]

and they do it all the time.

after replicarter, wouldn't it have made sense for daniel to be a bit leery of sam? even if instinctively

and yeah, mentioning the huge loss of jacob would have been nice. and janet being gone. and let's not forget jack - although coop seems to have

Then again, our 'heroes' screw up and no one even questins it.

the shroud

Spoiler:

daniel massacres all the ori and no one even bats an eye

Is one of the biggest examples.

I'm all for episodic, but it's like the writers go out of their way to NOT mention anything from the past or to have anything have consequences down the road

I agree with that. And it's just always seemed like there are (eta: were) too many cooks in the kitchen, too many crossovers between EPs with different visions and perspectives, too many crossovers between producers and writers, etc. Couple that with the fact that they seemed to film things incredibly out of order, and it was chaotically inconsistent.

There were so many times where I felt like they were just making it up as they went along. Like scifithinker and others have said, the series lacked continuity.

It's one of the reasons why S4 seems a bit more mellow. A few less people making decisions, interpreting things differently, adding their own *whatever* to an episode, etc.

[Melora]

It’s sad to learn that it was some of the people who gave us S1-S8 who decided to scrap the great universe and show they created and parasitically implant that crappy show on top. At least if it was the supposed "evil" sci-fi it would make some sense. I guess RCC and others couldn’t deal with the successful framework that had been created for them. Like a child who inherits his parents business and quickly runs it into the ground.

This is what I don't understand. Did they think that seasons 1-8 were so bad that they had to completely re-invent the show and scrap practically everything that made the show what it was? I don't seem to recall them thinking it was a bad show when they were getting stellar ratings.

It just doesn't make any sense to me at all. It's almost like TPTB started hating/resenting their own creation after season 8 and felt it was necessary to completely transform it into something they actually liked. Maybe they started resenting it long before that but had to structure the show around O'Neill/RDA for various reasons. After RDA left, maybe it freed them up to do want they really wanted to do all along. I find it tremendously sad that the fans seem to have more respect for the (original) show and characters than the people who created and developed them. I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

[Mandysg1]

This is what I don't understand. Did they think that seasons 1-8 were so bad that they had to completely re-invent the show and scrap practically everything that made the show what it was? I don't seem to recall them thinking it was a bad show when they were getting stellar ratings.

It just doesn't make any sense to me at all. It's almost like TPTB started hating/resenting their own creation after season 8 and felt it was necessary to completely transform it into something they actually liked. Maybe they started resenting it long before that but had to structure the show around O'Neill/RDA for various reasons. After RDA left, maybe it freed them up to do want they really wanted to do all along. I find it tremendously sad that the fans seem to have more respect for the (original) show and characters than the people who created and developed them. I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

After Gekko left (RDA and partner) some of the others stated how much more fun it was to do the show (or words to that affect) I guess Gekko was the maturity and continuity of the show. You know the one's who spoiled all the fun by asking that pesky question "WHY?"

[astrogeologist]

Haven't posted here in a while. I thought I had I finally come to terms with the changes made in season 9/10. I enjoyed some of it and took it for what it was. I will never like the last two seasons as much as season 1-8, but I did find moments of enjoyment in season 10. Then I read something today and all my anti feelings came flooding back.

Actually the mystery is solved. I just read a synopsis of the DVD commentary for "Morpheus" and JM pretty much explains everything that happened.

Spoiler:

According to JM, the producers at Bridge originally wanted CB in the show full-time in season 9, but the network said no b/c they didn’t want so many changes at one time and thought it might upset the fans. They also thought it was not a good idea to have the two stars of Farscape co-starring on the show together. Because of this, Vala was there only for the first six episodes (while AT was on maternity leave). however, after the first few eps aired, Sci-Fi came back to them and said that they really loved Vala and agreed that CB should be a regular on the show. By that time, it was too late to write her in and CB was pregnant in real life. So instead they brought her back at the end of the season with the intention of writing her into the show as a regular character. I know a lot of us have speculated about this, but I found it interesting that it was the producers at Bridge that wanted Vala full-time and Sci-Fi who originally nixed the idea. IMHO, it was unfortunate that Sci-Fi changed their minds about it. I think Vala was much better as a recurring character than as a regular one for reasons I have stated before on other threads.

JM also clarified what they originally intended to do with Carter in season 10. They were going to split AT’s time between Atlantis and SG-1 with Carter as commander of the Odyssey. I can only gather that this idea was meant to kill two birds with one stone. They could make room for another female character on the team (Vala) and address that meddlesome co-command problem. They also probably thought they wouldn’t get a huge negative backlash from the fans, because Sam would still be around (albeit in a limited capacity on both shows). Let’s face it – ship commanders play a very peripheral role in SG1 and SGA. Effectively, I believe this move would have reduced Carter to a recurring-type character on both shows while keeping SG-1 as a four-person team with Cam, Daniel, Teal'c, and Vala.

Looking back, I am so grateful that news about this "plan" for Carter leaked early and the fans spoke up. I have no doubt that season 10 would have been infinitely different had we not. As it stands, I can at least watch some of season 10 and even enjoy it a bit.

I (sadly) do not find any of this surprising. Depressing, yes. Surprising, no. From how things played out in Seasons 9 and 10, it seemed obvious to me that they just didn't know what to do with the character of Carter any more - that they were done with that character. Finished. Mentally, they put that character away on a shelf. They were done with Carter when RDA left the show. I don't see why RDA's leaving automatically 'ended' Carter's possible character arcs, but the writers/directors/producers definitely seemed done with her. As Carter enters Atlantis, one of the things said was that 'the only thing that has escaped Carter is command' - which tells me that that they felt that everything else was taken care of. Nothing else of interest to pursue.

Personally, I think they were bored with the old characters. RDA's departure allowed them the opportunity to 'start over' (without the risk of actually creating a new show with it's own fabric and framework for fans to critique), instead, they got to start with 'new' characters in an established framework with an established fan-base. Carter was brushed aside, Daniel's character was 'reinvented/rewritten' into a different personality, and Teal'c was allowed to talk more (CJ called the new Teal'c 'chatty').

Bringing in *both* of the top two lead actors from Farscape is still, to me, a completely boneheaded idea (and I'm sorry if my opinion offends any other fans - I do *not* have anything against BB or CB). The only thing that I can see as a reason for bring both of the Farscape leads into SG-1 as leads is... that the SG-1 writers/directors/producers were somehow jealous of Farscape for having BB and CB to play with. There must have been some amongst the writers/directors/producers who either *really* liked what they saw of CB and BB in Farscape and/or they *really* liked Farscape. Liked them all enough to want to fulfill their dreams of having them play lead characters on Stargate. The amount of praise and awe expressed in interviews towards the two Farscape actors didn't make sense to me initially (I hadn't seen Farscape and am not a Farscape groupie), but if there were those amongst the SG-1 writers/producers/directors who *were* Farscape and/or BB/CB fans themselves... then getting those two actors as leads in their own 'new' SG-1... perhaps it was a dream come-true for some of our SG-1 PTB?

The decision to bring both of them over to SG-1 still makes no sense to me. It boggles my mind that anyone thought it was a good idea to bring over the two lead actors from another contemporaneous scifi show to be the leads of SG-1. It ties the two shows together in an odd and artificial way the strikes a constantly false note - and perhaps there are marketing execs at Scifi who were cognizant of the weird/confusing effect of having both BB and CB on the covers of both Farscape and SG-1 DVD's at the same time?

... and Melora's post leads me to wonder if it wasn't a deliberate decision (and not an oversight) to leave Vala/CB off of the Season 10 cover art (and to put BB in the background)? In other words, perhaps there are executives somewhere who think that it just might not work (in terms of sales) to have SG-1 DVD's looking like Farscape DVD's to the consumer?

This is what I don't understand. Did they think that seasons 1-8 were so bad that they had to completely re-invent the show and scrap practically everything that made the show what it was? I don't seem to recall them thinking it was a bad show when they were getting stellar ratings.

It just doesn't make any sense to me at all. It's almost like TPTB started hating/resenting their own creation after season 8 and felt it was necessary to completely transform it into something they actually liked. Maybe they started resenting it long before that but had to structure the show around O'Neill/RDA for various reasons. After RDA left, maybe it freed them up to do want they really wanted to do all along. I find it tremendously sad that the fans seem to have more respect for the (original) show and characters than the people who created and developed them. I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

I think they did actually resent the very show and history/tapestry that they'd created. I think they do realize, and pay homage to, the success that it has had. That said, I think that they also find it to be a straightjacket in terms of what they want to do next.

I don't think that they thought that the first 8 seasons of the show were bad; however, I don't think that they actually know just *what* it was that made it work, or just *what* it was that made the first 8 seasons special. Part of the success was undoubtedly RDA, but I don't think that's all there was to it. I think it was also AT and MS and CJ and TR and DH and all of the rest of the cast. I think that they had a true ensemble - even if they didn't intend to or actually intend to write for one.

They had, for seasons 1-8, caught 'lightning in a bottle'. They had some sort of magic that made things work (at least more often than it failed overall). They never realized, or identified, what that magic was.

For Seasons 9 & 10, they seemed to have not realized that Seasons 1-8 had something rare - instead they seemed to have approached Seasons 9&10 as if Seasons 1-8 taught them that whatever they did would be successful (that enough fans *somewhere* would like it). Now, I want to stress that what I'm saying here is, of course, only my opinion, and it is based simply on the impressions that I've gotten from things said by the writers/directors/producers in posted interviews.

[ccdsah]

I (sadly) do not find any of this surprising. Depressing, yes. Surprising, no. From how things played out in Seasons 9 and 10, it seemed obvious to me that they just didn't know what to do with the character of Carter any more - that they were done with that character. Finished. Mentally, they put that character away on a shelf. They were done with Carter when RDA left the show. I don't see why RDA's leaving automatically 'ended' Carter's possible character arcs, but the writers/directors/producers definitely seemed done with her. As Carter enters Atlantis, one of the things said was that 'the only thing that has escaped Carter is command' - which tells me that that they felt that everything else was taken care of. Nothing else of interest to pursue.

Personally, I think they were bored with the old characters. RDA's departure allowed them the opportunity to 'start over' (without the risk of actually creating a new show with it's own fabric and framework for fans to critique), instead, they got to start with 'new' characters in an established framework with an established fan-base. Carter was brushed aside, Daniel's character was 'reinvented/rewritten' into a different personality, and Teal'c was allowed to talk more (CJ called the new Teal'c 'chatty').

Bringing in *both* of the top two lead actors from Farscape is still, to me, a completely boneheaded idea (and I'm sorry if my opinion offends any other fans - I do *not* have anything against BB or CB). The only thing that I can see as a reason for bring both of the Farscape leads into SG-1 as leads is... that the SG-1 writers/directors/producers were somehow jealous of Farscape for having BB and CB to play with. There must have been some amongst the writers/directors/producers who either *really* liked what they saw of CB and BB in Farscape and/or they *really* liked Farscape. Liked them all enough to want to fulfill their dreams of having them play lead characters on Stargate. The amount of praise and awe expressed in interviews towards the two Farscape actors didn't make sense to me initially (I hadn't seen Farscape and am not a Farscape groupie), but if there were those amongst the SG-1 writers/producers/directors who *were* Farscape and/or BB/CB fans themselves... then getting those two actors as leads in their own 'new' SG-1... perhaps it was a dream come-true for some of our SG-1 PTB?

The decision to bring both of them over to SG-1 still makes no sense to me. It boggles my mind that anyone thought it was a good idea to bring over the two lead actors from another contemporaneous scifi show to be the leads of SG-1. It ties the two shows together in an odd and artificial way the strikes a constantly false note - and perhaps there are marketing execs at Scifi who were cognizant of the weird/confusing effect of having both BB and CB on the covers of both Farscape and SG-1 DVD's at the same time?

... and Melora's post leads me to wonder if it wasn't a deliberate decision (and not an oversight) to leave Vala/CB off of the Season 10 cover art (and to put BB in the background)? In other words, perhaps there are executives somewhere who think that it just might not work (in terms of sales) to have SG-1 DVD's looking like Farscape DVD's to the consumer?

I think they did actually resent the very show and history/tapestry that they'd created. I think they do realize, and pay homage to, the success that it has had. That said, I think that they also find it to be a straightjacket in terms of what they want to do next.

I don't think that they thought that the first 8 seasons of the show were bad; however, I don't think that they actually know just *what* it was that made it work, or just *what* it was that made the first 8 seasons special. Part of the success was undoubtedly RDA, but I don't think that's all there was to it. I think it was also AT and MS and CJ and TR and DH and all of the rest of the cast. I think that they had a true ensemble - even if they didn't intend to or actually intend to write for one.

They had, for seasons 1-8, caught 'lightning in a bottle'. They had some sort of magic that made things work (at least more often than it failed overall). They never realized, or identified, what that magic was.

For Seasons 9 & 10, they seemed to have not realized that Seasons 1-8 had something rare - instead they seemed to have approached Seasons 9&10 as if Seasons 1-8 taught them that whatever they did would be successful (that enough fans *somewhere* would like it). Now, I want to stress that what I'm saying here is, of course, only my opinion, and it is based simply on the impressions that I've gotten from things said by the writers/directors/producers in posted interviews.

I think with RDA and Gekko they had "quality control" which sadly was missed in S9-10...

[Jackie]

I think what ticks me off more than anything was the fact that the "new" show could have been very good.

If they had left Sam as the lead and used her pregnancy in the show instead of CB's thus making Sam as Adria's mother and hired Tomin as a full time new cast member the show could have been fantastic.

Vala should have remained Daniel's nemesis and a crook. Bowder's character should have been brought on to lead SG-1 once Sam went to Ori world.

The show should have been split between our Galaxy and the Ori galaxy. They didn't give us enough info about the Ori or developed them enough to hold your attention. The premise of an enemy with super duper powers is nothing new. But they cannot bring in an enemy and then never show us anything about them.

Tomin was a brilliant move that was sooo under used. He should have been the man whose religion was just turned on its head. He could have revealed the book of Origin and how they come to the conclusion that we must be evil.

Sam and Tomin should have been the main interaction in the series. Tomin would have had to become our ally or even someone Sam would bring into SG-1.

When Sam returned from the Ori galaxy she should have had issues with her command and if she was seen as compromised by her connection to Adria.

Instead, they shoved Sam in the corner and Vaniel-ed the series. Oh, so sad.

[ccdsah]

I think what ticks me off more than anything was the fact that the "new" show could have been very good.

If they had left Sam as the lead and used her pregnancy in the show instead of CB's thus making Sam as Adria's mother and hired Tomin as a full time new cast member the show could have been fantastic.

Vala should have remained Daniel's nemesis and a crook. Bowder's character should have been brought on to lead SG-1 once Sam went to Ori world.

The show should have been split between our Galaxy and the Ori galaxy. They didn't give us enough info about the Ori or developed them enough to hold your attention. The premise of an enemy with super duper powers is nothing new. But they cannot bring in an enemy and then never show us anything about them.

Tomin was a brilliant move that was sooo under used. He should have been the man whose religion was just turned on its head. He could have revealed the book of Origin and how they come to the conclusion that we must be evil.

Sam and Tomin should have been the main interaction in the series. Tomin would have had to become our ally or even someone Sam would bring into SG-1.

When Sam returned from the Ori galaxy she should have had issues with her command and if she was seen as compromised by her connection to Adria.

Instead, they shoved Sam in the corner and Vaniel-ed the series. Oh, so sad.

No they wouldn't have done that to SJ shippers. They might have used At's pregnancy to resolve SJ ship + babies and strangely even though I'm a SJ shipper I don't think I could have stand that...

[the dancer of spaz]

I don't know if making Sam the mother of Adria would've been much better. It would've been executed differently (naturally, with two different actors), but I'm not so sure it would've made the arc better. The whole thing is contrived, cliched and overdone. The possibilities of what they would've done to Sam to further the half-baked plot(s) are frighteningly endless.

At the same time, a bit of Vaniel wouldn't have bothered me as much, had it been spread out a little more. They had a really talented ensemble in those five actors, and instead of utilizing that cast to the fullest, they utilized a crutch.

I have to say that I was initially very surprised to hear that it was Bridge/MGM that made such a huge push, as I had been under the impression that SciFi were the baddies. However, upon reflection, it does make sense. MGM would be the ones desperate to capture another fanbase, not necessarily SciFi.

I still think SciFi may be a bit shady when it comes to certain decisions they've made, but the fact that they questioned MGM's choice is very interesting. Then again, the fact that they eventually came around is interesting as well.

It makes me wonder which one has been calling the shots on Atlantis now. All this time, SciFi has been the patsy. But if MGM/Bridge was so adamant about BB and CB two years ago, what's to say they weren't adamant about Atlantis' changes for season four?

And if they weren't all that interested in having Carter full-time on SG-1 or Atlantis two years ago, what made them change their minds and bring her onto Atlantis?

[Mandysg1]

I don't know, I don't think I would have wanted Sam to be the mother of the cliched evil baby anymore than Vala. They had many ways they could have reasonable written Sam out for AT's maternity leave instead of what they did. Vala could have been added as a recurring role as a rogue, and Cam...well with Cam they should have known the character before just throwing him into the deepend.

Too many things didn't make sense, which brings us back to that pesky question they never bothered to answered.

"Why?"

[BPC]

Morpheus commentary; really all I have to say is WTF? How fast are they dancing?