S10: Critique & Contemplation

[ReganX]

I think the final part of interview with Coop needs a re-write: "the creative people do pay attention to what came before".

I thought that they were wiping the slate clean.

[astrogeologist]

Hi CG!

As to Heroes being a favorite episode - another "in your face" moment to the loyal fans. Janet Fraiser did not have to be sacrificed in order for that episode to work!

http://www.gateworld.net/interviews/...s_part_1.shtml

From RCC's GW interview: "Tom always said that whenever you do things to the series that are huge changes, like killing characters or changing bad guys -- things that are somewhat counter-productive to the mythology. The equivalent would be if in the last episode of Star Trek they crashed the Enterprise and killed everyone on board -- the reruns get significantly hurt by that, because suddenly those people don't exist in the fans' minds anymore. They feel like they've seen the ending. And so when they're watching the old episodes suddenly the tragedy lives in their minds, as opposed to the idea that maybe the team is still out there and it's all still really going on."

--> So when they killed of Janet, Jacob, Replicarter, etc., and made the changes for Season 9, they knew what they were doing to the tapestry and the series' longevity and acceptibility with fans. Killing off strong or liked characters is dangerous to the health of a series. And still, they did it. That's hubris.

For me, Janet's death was needless. Perhaps the acting after her death was good acting, but for me, Janet's death wasn't necessary to pull good acting out of the actors.

Jacob's death was also needless for me. It wasn't necessary to kill of his character in order to push Jack and Sam together (especially if they weren't actually going to ever get together).

Janet and Jacob were both strong supporting characters whose deaths did not produce much in terms of the overall development of the Stargate tapestry. Except tragedy and loss.

RE, RCC's acknowledgement: "They [the fans] feel like they've seen the ending. And so when they're watching the old episodes suddenly the tragedy lives in their minds"... this is exactly what happened to me. I can't watch the early season episodes without continuously thinking about how things turn out - with Mitchell in command of SG-1, with Vala a member of the team, with Jackson instead of Daniel, with Vaniel, with Jack not mentioned much (and RDA's Season 10 appearances just about worthless)... I can't watch early season Carter and Daniel without being sickened at the knowledge of where both characters end up in Seasons 9 & 10.

What kept me coming back to GW? I was hoping that they would 'right the ship'.. admit and/or correct what they'd done wrong... somehow.

Putting Carter in command of Atlantis seems to be a gesture towards attempting to restore some of her professional competence... but it now seems to be 'too little, way too late' - and it's in the wake of Weir's strange departure from the series, which heavily taints (and may doom) Carter's tenure on Atlantis.

[AGateFan]

Think about who they killed in the last ep and tell me THAT doesnt affect the entire stargate universe. It makes it less then it was more boring, more bland, more cliche.

Funny how he is OK with killing off things he doesnt like as needed drama but when its something he does like, well you cant kill that it would kill the show. No coop, why dont you be REALLY dramatic and have Cam die. I mean he seems to have been written in some eps to be on a heroic suicide mission anyway, so why not give it to him? Of course it would lack the "drama" as most people would likely just yawn at his death. I suppose there would be no way to make a meaningful vala death either. Too bad.

Currently one of the best things of Carter moving over to Atlantis is the knowledge that she didnt get sacraficed for Coops "Drama". I am slighly worried about O'Neills inclusion in the films though. But since he makes it to the 2nd one and theres a big reset switch with that one I guess he will be fine.

EDIT: I was also VERY worried about teal'c (ala Dargo, Data, Walsh)...but I hear he guest stars in at least one Atlantis ep next year. So thats good, unless hes a flashback....oh and some people speculated carter could be a replicator... if either of those happen and we find out these characters are dead then I am done with Atlantis too. So far it hangs by a thread. We will see if Joe (my favorite episode is irresponsible) Mazzoli can actually self-edit (or take some feedback from people with taste) and actually make a good season.

[ChopinGal]

More from Coop's interview: "So the idea for Unending was to somehow create something that would be an emotional tribute to the ten seasons that have come before, and to feel like it was the last chapter in the book -- but not necessarily in the series of books. It was a chance to show, using science fiction, to show people one version of what the future might be like for these characters that they've spent so much time with and loved so much."

Without any reference to Jack who was "the Man" for 8/10 seasons.

I haven't read through or listened to the interview in its entirety because I don't want to go on anti-depressants if I don't have to.

Astro, Coop's quote in your post above says it all ...

H = hypocrisy, can you read my lips?
U = use sex and cleavage as a way to gain the young-male demographic
B = beware of fans who actually write intelligent critiques
R = redux, recycle, return to the Days of Arthur when men were men and women were damsels in distress
I = irritate a loyal fanbase with adolescent scripts and misuse of original characters
S = seek to pitch S9/10 as the Glory Days of the franchise without ever looking in the rearview mirror. Unending was about the new team's experience, not the flagship team.

Love means never having to say you're sorry, eh?

[jckfan55]

Excellent post. Just quoting a couple of points.

--> So when they killed of Janet, Jacob, Replicarter, etc., and made the changes for Season 9, they knew what they were doing to the tapestry and the series' longevity and acceptibility with fans. Killing off strong or liked characters is dangerous to the health of a series. And still, they did it. That's hubris.

For me, Janet's death was needless. Perhaps the acting after her death was good acting, but for me, Janet's death wasn't necessary to pull good acting out of the actors.

Truer words were never spoken...written.

Jacob's death was also needless for me. It wasn't necessary to kill of his character in order to push Jack and Sam together (especially if they weren't actually going to ever get together).

Janet and Jacob were both strong supporting characters whose deaths did not produce much in terms of the overall development of the Stargate tapestry. Except tragedy and loss.

So true. To me it's the lazy way of "creating drama" or "jeopardy" to kill off major supporting/recurring characters. Particularly when that had never been the MO of the show before. It's like they got the idea that "we better be *serious* with a capital S in order to get some respect or something.

With a well written script and well directed ep, you can still feel SG1 is in danger even if you "know" they're not going to die.

I always think of the beginning of "The Light" as an example of how we as an audience could feel the shock of SG1 at losing a member of the SGC even though we as an audience had never seen him before.
Heroes was a well done episode, but the sacrifice was too great IMHO.

[Frostfox]

As to Heroes being a favorite episode - another "in your face" moment to the loyal fans. Janet Fraiser did not have to be sacrificed in order for that episode to work! Talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

I've recently read both Amanda and Michael say that Heroes was their favourite episode.
I can understand why they liked it, there was lots of good acting opportunities, lots of emotion, an interesting and different storyline, though I didn't understand why they had sent the base CMO off world at all really.

But to me, they could have done just as much if they had seriously injured Janet, seeing her struggle to recover from paralasis or something like that would have been a strong thread.

I understand that the writers thought Stargate wasn't going to be renewed and I understand the need to show that what they do at the SGC is dangerous, but Janet was such a strong underpinning of the show, we missed her in the later seasons so much.
I feel conflicted, I like a bit of grit in my shows, I loved Star Trek DS9 because it was bolder, nastier and darker than the other Trek shows, there are times when I wish Stargate was gritter, but that doesn't mean killing all your supporting cast off.
And after Heroes, we didn't really get to see the fall out, I was so disappointed in the episode with the

Spoiler:

multiple teams (blanking on the episode name) that we didn't see Sam and Janet interact, that Sam didn't talk to her about loss and Cassie and seeing her again, such a wasted opportunity

Don't get me started on Jacob's death.

FF

[Jackie]

IMO the show doesn't kill off well liked characters for the sake of the story. Not even for a story device. TPTB kill off liked characters for one reason only--they like tp shock the auidence.

They like to see us "lemmings" go nuts when they kill off a likeable character. If the actor leaves for another job, the character chan be written out without killing them. (Look at season 6--MS left).

Killing of Janet, Jacob, Carson were nothing more than a "shock and awe" device used directly on us--the veiwer. I find it very distasteful to kill a character just to "shake things up" in any series.

The blantant disrespect for the actors and fans just proves to me that TPTB have no real idea what they are doing. The writing gets crappy, the directing laps, the acting get's old and they just decide to kill someone off to make it "real."

Well, if I wanted "real" I would be watching CNN right now.

Killing of any character just to get the fans in a frenzy is about as insulting as having TPTB thow you the "bird." It tells me that they don't really care about the people who watch the show or the people acting in the show. We are nothing but a bunch of "mindless lemmings" that have no idea just how difficult it must be to be a writer on this show. We must appreciate just how great of writers they are by thier ability to shove mindless, incohernt deaths down our throats and tug at those emotional strings attached when a beloved character dies--for we don't know what death is. We have no comprension that death happens everyday in this country and we must be show the affects of death on those immediatly affected by death.

Unwavered TPTB must show us that people really do die...HOWEVER, "no one ever really dies on sci-fi" as it was stated.

What they fail to grasp is that most fans are fully aware of just what death is and what it does to families. We tune in the TV to go through the gate and escape our own reality which is full of disappointments, death, and bad drivers on the road. I want to go to another planet and ESCAPE reality. I do not want to see a show where they must prove that it's real be killing off a characters.

I do not want to see a show that will preach to me about right and wrong. I do not want to see a show where women are reduced to tight leather outfits and boobs. I don't want to see a show where a main character changes from the "moral Compass" to the "shoot first/let god sort them out" macho man.

I want a show where I can connect to the main characters to a point of those characters seeming to be real people and I want to go along for the ride.

[astrogeologist]

Excellent post. Just quoting a couple of points.



Truer words were never spoken...written.



So true. To me it's the lazy way of "creating drama" or "jeopardy" to kill off major supporting/recurring characters. Particularly when that had never been the MO of the show before. It's like they got the idea that "we better be *serious* with a capital S in order to get some respect or something.

With a well written script and well directed ep, you can still feel SG1 is in danger even if you "know" they're not going to die.

I always think of the beginning of "The Light" as an example of how we as an audience could feel the shock of SG1 at losing a member of the SGC even though we as an audience had never seen him before.
Heroes was a well done episode, but the sacrifice was too great IMHO.

I wonder, if after 'Abyss' (and Jack's repeated use of the sarcaphogus), followed by Daniel's death/Ascension/descension, the show got itself a reputation for 'beating death' (I even seem to remember an article somewhere with that topic... somewhere like TV Guide, or an interview)... so the show's PTB (writers, etc) were determined to put the 'peril of death' back into the show. And they most certainly did. Janet, Jacob, Catherine, the entire Asguard race, RepliCarter, Fifth, Anubis, etc.

And what RCC said about being told that the killing of major characters having a negative impact on reruns in syndication... I have to admit, that for me, it's true. I won't rewatch Heroes and I have yet to watch Threads. And I can't watch the earlier episodes without thinking about what happens to everyone in the last few seasons... so I haven't been watching the reruns of earlier seasons. RCC's friend/coworker was correct.

It's interesting to me that the rerun block Stargate ratings have dropped so low that they aren't worth showing anymore at this time. I wonder how many other folks were impacted as I was with regards to how the last few seasons of SG-1 affected their appreciation and enjoyment of the earlier seasons (which were much more filled with hope and brighter smiles of anticipation).

[astrogeologist]

More from Coop's interview: "So the idea for Unending was to somehow create something that would be an emotional tribute to the ten seasons that have come before, and to feel like it was the last chapter in the book -- but not necessarily in the series of books. It was a chance to show, using science fiction, to show people one version of what the future might be like for these characters that they've spent so much time with and loved so much."

Without any reference to Jack who was "the Man" for 8/10 seasons.

I haven't read through or listened to the interview in its entirety because I don't want to go on anti-depressants if I don't have to.

Astro, Coop's quote in your post above says it all ...

H = hypocrisy, can you read my lips?
U = use sex and cleavage as a way to gain the young-male demographic
B = beware of fans who actually write intelligent critiques
R = redux, recycle, return to the Days of Arthur when men when were men and women were damsels in distress
I = irritate a loyal fanbase with adolescent scripts and misuse of original characters
S = seek to pitch S9/10 as the Glory Days of the franchise without ever looking in the rearview mirror. Unending was about the new team's experience, not the flagship team.

Love means never having to say you're sorry, eh?

Great post, CG!

IMO the show doesn't kill off well liked characters for the sake of the story. Not even for a story device. TPTB kill off liked characters for one reason only--they like tp shock the auidence.

They like to see us "lemmings" go nuts when they kill off a likeable character. If the actor leaves for another job, the character chan be written out without killing them. (Look at season 6--MS left).

Killing of Janet, Jacob, Carson were nothing more than a "shock and awe" device used directly on us--the veiwer. I find it very distasteful to kill a character just to "shake things up" in any series.

The blantant disrespect for the actors and fans just proves to me that TPTB have no real idea what they are doing. The writing gets crappy, the directing laps, the acting get's old and they just decide to kill someone off to make it "real."

Well, if I wanted "real" I would be watching CNN right now.

Killing of any character just to get the fans in a frenzy is about as insulting as having TPTB thow you the "bird." It tells me that they don't really care about the people who watch the show or the people acting in the show. We are nothing but a bunch of "mindless lemmings" that have no idea just how difficult it must be to be a writer on this show. We must appreciate just how great of writers they are by thier ability to shove mindless, incohernt deaths down our throats and tug at those emotional strings attached when a beloved character dies--for we don't know what death is. We have no comprension that death happens everyday in this country and we must be show the affects of death on those immediatly affected by death.

Unwavered TPTB must show us that people really do die...HOWEVER, "no one ever really dies on sci-fi" as it was stated.

What they fail to grasp is that most fans are fully aware of just what death is and what it does to families. We tune in the TV to go through the gate and escape our own reality which is full of disappointments, death, and bad drivers on the road. I want to go to another planet and ESCAPE reality. I do not want to see a show where they must prove that it's real be killing off a characters.

I do not want to see a show that will preach to me about right and wrong. I do not want to see a show where women are reduced to tight leather outfits and boobs. I don't want to see a show where a main character changes from the "moral Compass" to the "shoot first/let god sort them out" macho man.

I want a show where I can connect to the main characters to a point of those characters seeming to be real people and I want to go along for the ride.

Great post, Jackie.

[Arga]

...
It's interesting to me that the rerun block Stargate ratings have dropped so low that they aren't worth showing anymore at this time. .

perhaps it means that so many people have bought the DVD's that they don't care watching reruns on TV...

[ReganX]

--> So when they killed of Janet, Jacob, Replicarter, etc., and made the changes for Season 9, they knew what they were doing to the tapestry and the series' longevity and acceptibility with fans. Killing off strong or liked characters is dangerous to the health of a series. And still, they did it. That's hubris.

For me, Janet's death was needless. Perhaps the acting after her death was good acting, but for me, Janet's death wasn't necessary to pull good acting out of the actors.

Jacob's death was also needless for me. It wasn't necessary to kill of his character in order to push Jack and Sam together (especially if they weren't actually going to ever get together).

Janet and Jacob were both strong supporting characters whose deaths did not produce much in terms of the overall development of the Stargate tapestry. Except tragedy and loss.

I'd say that they killed them off for shock value, pure and simple. If they thought that the show was going to end with Season Seven/Eight, then I can see no other reason to kill off a well-liked character. The price of the shocking, dramatic moment is the character and any future storylines involving him or her and very possibly quite a few of their fans.

Is it really worth it?

I can understand that sometimes a show's PTB have no choice but to write out a character (for example, when MS left after Season Five) and if that character is a regular, they may feel that killing them off is the only way to make a clean break but at the same time, even with a sci-fi show where death is not always a permanent condition, killing off a character sends a pretty clear message to that character's fans: "S/he's gone and s/he's not coming back."

Using

Spoiler:

Beckett's death as an example, even if they did want to write out the character, killing him was not absolutely necessary; he could have gone back to Earth.

I can't watch the early season episodes without continuously thinking about how things turn out - with Mitchell in command of SG-1, with Vala a member of the team, with Jackson instead of Daniel, with Vaniel, with Jack not mentioned much (and RDA's Season 10 appearances just about worthless)... I can't watch early season Carter and Daniel without being sickened at the knowledge of where both characters end up in Seasons 9 & 10.

I'm just glad that neither of them have precognitive abilities. At least they don't know what's going to happen to them.

What kept me coming back to GW? I was hoping that they would 'right the ship'.. admit and/or correct what they'd done wrong... somehow.

Putting Carter in command of Atlantis seems to be a gesture towards attempting to restore some of her professional competence... but it now seems to be 'too little, way too late' - and it's in the wake of Weir's strange departure from the series, which heavily taints (and may doom) Carter's tenure on Atlantis.

If TPTB have realized that they wronged Sam's character by removing her from command and are trying to make amends by putting her in command of Atlantis, that's one thing but you're right that Weir's departure taints it.

Even if the decision to reduce Weir's role was made before the decision to bring Sam over, as has been said, the appearance is still there.

Spoiler:

Sam's best chance may be if Weir is seriously injured and has to return to Earth to recuperate, with Sam taking over temporarily during Weir's recovery. Even if TPTB never return Weir to command, the hope that she will be back may ease Sam's arrival and let viewers get to know and love her.

[AGateFan]

..... sniped top paragraph....
And what RCC said about being told that the killing of major characters having a negative impact on reruns in syndication... I have to admit, that for me, it's true. I won't rewatch Heroes and I have yet to watch Threads. And I can't watch the earlier episodes without thinking about what happens to everyone in the last few seasons... so I haven't been watching the reruns of earlier seasons. RCC's friend/coworker was correct.

It's interesting to me that the rerun block Stargate ratings have dropped so low that they aren't worth showing anymore at this time. I wonder how many other folks were impacted as I was with regards to how the last few seasons of SG-1 affected their appreciation and enjoyment of the earlier seasons (which were much more filled with hope and brighter smiles of anticipation).

I feel that way about the reruns when I "think" about watching them. When I sit down and an old ep is on, however, I get drawn into it and forget about the future. I am almost always astounded by how great the ep is and think "what a great show". If another rerun of an earlier season follows the first then I stay and watch that too and can easily get hooked into an entire marathon that way.

However you throw Heroes, Threads or a S9-S10 ep in and "boom" I have something better to do. I just lose all interest.

I try to watch heros because there are some good moments in there like the jack interview ( "I like vanilla over chocolate, my favorite color is peridot, I think Tibet should be free, and if I could have dinner with anyone in the world, it would be Mary Steenburgen"). (oh another good thing about that ep was Col Dixons team... How come the new character on SG-1 in S9 couldnt be one of them? They freaking EARNED IT.)

Threads however, is a problem for me on multiple fronts. Despite some good Daniel stuff a lot of the ep was focused on Carter\Pete (couldnt give a rats ass), O'Neill\some-useless-I-dont-know-nor-care-to-know character (again look at that rat) then they kill Jacob soley to get O'Neill\Carter (which I am in principle against on show ... do it in fan fiction all you want IMHO). So even though I went through the trouble to have Sony send me the 90 min version, I have never rewatched it and probably never will.

I dont watch S9-S10 for obvious reasons .... IT'S NOT SG-1.

What I find amusing is on Fridays before the "stellar" scifi lineup airs, they are now showing SG-1 reruns..... mostly pre S9-S10 reruns . I guess maybe they know that the majority of the audience dont think post S8 is the "bestest eva". They do try to sneak in a S9-S10 ep once in a while, I would like to see a ratings comparison.

[Mandysg1]

RE, RCC's acknowledgement: "They [the fans] feel like they've seen the ending. And so when they're watching the old episodes suddenly the tragedy lives in their minds"... this is exactly what happened to me. I can't watch the early season episodes without continuously thinking about how things turn out - with Mitchell in command of SG-1, with Vala a member of the team, with Jackson instead of Daniel, with Vaniel, with Jack not mentioned much (and RDA's Season 10 appearances just about worthless)... I can't watch early season Carter and Daniel without being sickened at the knowledge of where both characters end up in Seasons 9 & 10.

What kept me coming back to GW? I was hoping that they would 'right the ship'.. admit and/or correct what they'd done wrong... somehow.

Putting Carter in command of Atlantis seems to be a gesture towards attempting to restore some of her professional competence... but it now seems to be 'too little, way too late' - and it's in the wake of Weir's strange departure from the series, which heavily taints (and may doom) Carter's tenure on Atlantis.

I feel your pain astro, but I look at it this way, I enjoy daily reruns of the true SG1 which ended in s8 and s9 was that new show that got canned after a season and a half (if even that long)

[Rogue]

I feel that way about the reruns when I "think" about watching them. When I sit down and an old ep is on, however, I get drawn into it and forget about the future. I am almost always astounded by how great the ep is and think "what a great show". If another rerun of an earlier season follows the first then I stay and watch that too and can easily get hooked into an entire marathon that way.

However you throw Heroes, Threads or a S9-S10 ep in and "boom" I have something better to do. I just lose all interest.

I try to watch heros because there are some good moments in there like the jack interview ( "I like vanilla over chocolate, my favorite color is peridot, I think Tibet should be free, and if I could have dinner with anyone in the world, it would be Mary Steenburgen"). (oh another good thing about that ep was Col Dixons team... How come the new character on SG-1 in S9 couldnt be one of them? They freaking EARNED IT.)

Threads however, is a problem for me on multiple fronts. Despite some good Daniel stuff a lot of the ep was focused on Carter\Pete (couldnt give a rats ass), O'Neill\some-useless-I-dont-know-nor-care-to-know character (again look at that rat) then they kill Jacob soley to get O'Neill\Carter (which I am in principle against on show ... do it in fan fiction all you want IMHO). So even though I went through the trouble to have Sony send me the 90 min version, I have never rewatched it and probably never will.

I dont watch S9-S10 for obvious reasons .... IT'S NOT SG-1.

What I find amusing is on Fridays before the "stellar" scifi lineup airs, they are now showing SG-1 reruns..... mostly pre S9-S10 reruns . I guess maybe they know that the majority of the audience dont think post S8 is the "bestest eva". They do try to sneak in a S9-S10 ep once in a while, I would like to see a ratings comparison.

RCC should have listened to his co-workers. Heroes I like, even though Janet dies, Threads I don't care for even though I am a S/J shipper. They killed off a great character for basicly nothing. Nothing was resolved. I didn't like the whole Sam/Pete/Jack storyline anyway. I thought it made Sam look weak and indecisive.

[petemoretti]

RCC should have listened to his co-workers. Heroes I like, even though Janet dies, Threads I don't care for even though I am a S/J shipper. They killed off a great character for basicaly nothing. Nothing was resolved. I didn't like the whole Sam/Pete/Jack storyline anyway. I thought it made Sam look weak and indecisive.

As a SJ shipper myself I can relate, Why did they kill Jacob, when they didn't resolve unequivocally SJ? If the ship would have been resolved I might have liked the episode more. And out of Sam/Pete/Jack triangle Sam gets hurt the most - especially since they didn't show the SJ resolution! What are we supposed to believe? She gets engaged to Pete although she doesn't love him? She breaks up with him 'cause her father died? Jacob's death is quickly forgotten and the team goes fishing (I think even Carmen said in an interview he was surprised about the fishing trip and how light Sam took his death) For example compare Sam's reaction to Jacob's death in "Threads" to her reaction in "Unending" over Landry's death. She's much more emotional to say the least

Spoiler:

threads

unending

She almost looks broken...

Ergo Landry's more important to Sam than Jacob!
How about Vala's, Daniel's, Cam's reaction to Landry's death??? Or were they trying to forge an AT S/T relationship?