S10: Critique & Contemplation

[Jackie]

cameron IS a marty stu brought to life. I think he passes every one of the tests except the 'naturally curly red hair' one.

best friends of the heroes
admired by the heroes
valiantly sacrifices himself for said heroes, thus earning thier gratitude
welcomed among the heroes

LMAO--how true! They should have named him Marty Stuart in the show.

At least in my fan fics I make my mary sue/OC have major faults.

I wish Stargate would bring in heroes that were like normal people. Instead, the heroes are either ultra brave or ultra smart. Maybe that's why I like Dr. Lee and Walter so much more now. They are closer to real people than the regular characters.

I really wish they would bring in an ugly betty type of character. Especially since the show got rid of all their nerds.

[Skydiver]

that's why my fave character on atlantis is major lorne. he's the only REAL one amongst them.

shep is the super hewo
rod is the super brain
weir is the super negotiator
teyla is the super pretty alien
ronon is the super strong alien

and their flaws....well their flaws are cliches. shep's roguishness, rod's rants, weir's indecisiveness, teyla's....whatever, ronon's rage.

back in the older seasons, the show's heros did have flaws. they were marty/mary sue's in a way. all show main characters have to be. but jack would get stubborn, sam would get tunnel vision, daniel would get passionate about the wrong thing, tela'c would jaffa revenge, they WOULD screw up and have issues.

not any more though. now it's like the writers are so afraid of fans criticizing the characters that they won't criticize them themselves.

take off the grid for example. what would have redeemed cambo the magnificent would have been sam reaming cam for his bonehead idea. it NEEDED that. it needed someone to point out what we were screaming at the screen....

Spoiler:

why should mister 'i've never seen much less been on a hatak ship but i'm in a bad mood' storm the ship while the two people, who have not only been on the ships, one of them has the floor plans memorized, stay behind????

that kind of blindless only accentuates the weakness of the characters and the writing

[ReganX]

take off the grid for example. what would have redeemed cambo the magnificent would have been sam reaming cam for his bonehead idea. it NEEDED that. it needed someone to point out what we were screaming at the screen....

Spoiler:

why should mister 'i've never seen much less been on a hatak ship but i'm in a bad mood' storm the ship while the two people, who have not only been on the ships, one of them has the floor plans memorized, stay behind????

that kind of blindless only accentuates the weakness of the characters and the writing

After "Off The Grid", I think that Mitchell needed to be reprimanded at the very least. I don't think that Landry can be digging too deeply into their mission reports or red flags would have been going up a long time ago.

Sam should have told Mitchell, in no uncertain terms, that his idea was idiotic but I doubt that TPTB were prepared to have their hewo scolded.

As far as "Stronghold" was concerned, I saw that as evidence that TPTB were determined to pimp Mitchell as the hewo, no matter how illogical it was. Given his state of mind, he shouldn't have been on the mission in the first place - though Landry does deserve some of the blame for that - and had I been running the SGC, Mitchell would have found himself off the team so fast his head would spin.

If Mitchell had been a stronger character and better integrated into both the team and the show, somebody could have pointed out his mistakes, told him he'd screwed up and he could have learned from it and grown as a character but he was so weak as a character and his reason for being on the team, much less in command so illogical that such criticisms could not be made.

[JessM]

yep, same one. they augmented a mediocre, ill informed writer with a editior that obviously didn't know squat either.

I've been told that ashley tried, people that know her have spoke about how she was basicallyh given the contract and tossed in head first. which shows how little respect mgm had/has for it,but that lack of caring is one reason it took so long for another book series to be made

Ah, thanks for jogging my memory.

I remember hearing that too, that she had tried with what she was given, and if it was very little then it does show that there wasn't much respect given it by mgm. It's a shame.

[JessM]

Oh boy. How can you write a series based on a TV show when you never saw the show? It just goes to prove that it's not what you know--but who you know.

On a funny note, that's OT: I've decided to name the nerdy version of 'vala" we came up with, Claudia Brown.

Exactly. LOL, Claudia Brown. Hmm... better make sure some of the rabid CB/Vala fans don't find out (*starts hearing the strains of "you're disgracing her good name!"*) (sarcasm of course)

I never read any series books. One of my friends who is really into DR. Who found a SG-1 comic book once. I looked at it but it really didn't seem to capture the team like it should have. It's hard capturing someone else's character. The Daniel on the series is not really like the Daniel in the movie. The Jack on the series is nothing like the Jack in the movie. The show was lucky becuase MS and RDA had great chemisrty on ascreen. That's what made SG-1.

I've seen the comics based on the movie and they were interesting, although some of the art was done to sort of resemble anime. The SG-1 comics are okay - meaning if you're a junkie of the show who just likes collecting everything then go for it. I think they captured Teal'c okay, but Jack seems a bit.. I don't know... like they took his character and went a bit over the top with his humor. Sam is pretty much underused imho and Daniel, well Daniel is okay but it's not quite Daniel.

One thing I found amusing is that whoever draws it seems to be relying on screen caps of the episodes. There were panels where they had a certain character in a certain pose, and I recognized the episode it was from. Not that I'm trying to be overly critical or anything... I suppose they have to work with what they're given.

Atlantis doesn't have that feel to it like the earlier SG-1. The best chemistry they have is Rodney and Sheppard and that isn't as good as Jack and Daniel. Though, Rodney is the damsel in distress of SGA! LOL. (the arrow in the butt was classic.)

LOL - I've noticed that too. I do think that there is a better team dynamic on SGA than the past 2 seasons of SG-1 (or just the past season anyway). There was one episode of SGA this season (don't think this needs spoilers) where there was a scene at the end with Teyla, Ronan, Sheppard and McKay just sitting together, talking and laughing. It was nice to see and I couldn't remember the last time we saw SG-1 doing that...certainly not in S10 anyway.

[Skydiver]

they don't talk, cause talk is boring. who wants to watch talking? especially when there are some nice scantily clad aliens over there and look, something can blow up!!!

[Pitry]

well...if only one of the six (?) writers understands one of the show's main protagonists....isn't that a problem? Shouldn't they ALL understand them? how can they base the whole season's story arc on a version of the ancients if only one of the writers 'gets them'????

I'm reminded of the first incarnation of stargate books, written by ashley mcconnell. Now she'd done some other novelizations, the ones i recall are quantum leap...and they - on the basis that she was a published writer - gave her the stargate contract.

she'd never seen the show so she had to get episodes from other fans, do her reserach off a fan site. basically, she didn't 'get' the show because she never watched it.

and then they were scratching thier heads when the series died a lingering death because fan after fan pronounced the books to be trash.

sound familar?????

coop, hon, if the rest of your writers don't get the show's main villians, you should probably be proofing all their work, or writing every episode yourself. Cause i'd think it's the show runner's job to make sure that his crew 'gets' the show they're writing

Mmm. TBH, while I actually agree (for once!) this is a problem, I don't think it's a specific problenm with RCC, per se, but rather with the creative process in Stargate. I recall CJ talking about writing the Changeling, and on more than one occassion he said somethnig to the spirit of "I wanted to write it myself and not be spoonfed everything by BW the way he always does". I'm prolly making it stronger than it was made by him, but that was the spirit. From this I'm only left deducnig the show runner has always been the one to proof read all scripts and go and solve all the plot ;points, or in other words the one eprson who kept track of everything. As I said, if RCC, the way ti seemed from that commentary, is the only person to udnerstand the motivatino of one of the major, strongest powers in the SG universe it's bad - but he's continuing a tradition, it would seem.

[Skydiver]

Sam should have told Mitchell, in no uncertain terms, that his idea was idiotic but I doubt that TPTB were prepared to have their hewo scolded.

and by raising him above crit, they've just weakened him. By making him immune from any sort of 'umm, dude, why did you do that?' they've accentuated his bad behavior and made it far more obvious.

with cam they made a cardinal mistake. they seemed to think if they did the hard sell, we'd all fall into line like good little lemmings and fall in love with the new hero. Hindsight: they should have had things be rough. there should have been personality conflicts, there should have been issues.
there should have been discomfort. and we, the viewers, should have seen the characters work through their discomfort, and in watching, we too woudl work through our rough spots with this new kid on the block.

by having the intro be a bit rocky, it would give all of us something to identify with. How many of us have been in that situation? the new kid moving into the established group? people would have identified with cam a bit more and it would have likely eased his entry.

but tptb didn't try the 'cajoal' method, they crammed cambo down our throats then mocked anyone that pushed back.

and then wonder why the fandom as a whole isn't all behind them and the work they're doing.

we, as a fandom, have been told to bugger off consistently since coop took over the show. so fine, we'll bugger off. and we've taken our ratings points with us.

[jckfan55]

If Mitchell had been a stronger character and better integrated into both the team and the show, somebody could have pointed out his mistakes, told him he'd screwed up and he could have learned from it and grown as a character but he was so weak as a character and his reason for being on the team, much less in command so illogical that such criticisms could not be made.

Despite my name I was ready to accept RDA leaving the show and was willing to give Cam a chance. But the kind of numbskull stuff we got in off the grid and stronghold (?) really made him hard to take seriously. Instead of getting corrected and actually learning something useful we got

Spoiler:

being a hothead who runs off half cocked and nearly gets the rest of the team killed is an endearing personality trait

[Jackie]

I looked forward the Ben Bowder and CB coming to the series when it was annouced RDA was retiring.

Then I saw the series and wondered what happened. Mitchell is kind of like, Opie. No real personality to the character. Did the dumbest things and never repremanded for it. Southern boy who talked about grandma but read all the files. Thus he knows everything.

Landry has yet to impress me. He was doing better than Mitchell--but not by much. Letting a thief on SG-1. Leting Mitchell lead SG-1. Having Carter take a back seat and why is Teal'c there now?

I like Vala when Daniel is not around her.

Poor Sam, they never finalized what her relationship was with jack after RDA left. They could have said, yes or no. Not, "not really." Insulting to the fan base that followed thier silly little stunt.

No, Val/Daniel. Oh, man, that's all the show is now. Fanfic on fiction.net seems to be all D/V. Now, I see why J/S was so annoying to readers. That's all there is--it's as if these young writers can't think outside of the presented show. Oy, the Ori and Vaniel...bad enough it being shoved down our throats on the series.

[AGateFan]

that's why my fave character on atlantis is major lorne. he's the only REAL one amongst them.

shep is the super hewo
rod is the super brain
weir is the super negotiator
teyla is the super pretty alien
ronon is the super strong alien

and their flaws....well their flaws are cliches. shep's roguishness, rod's rants, weir's indecisiveness, teyla's....whatever, ronon's rage.

back in the older seasons, the show's heros did have flaws. they were marty/mary sue's in a way. all show main characters have to be. but jack would get stubborn, sam would get tunnel vision, daniel would get passionate about the wrong thing, tela'c would jaffa revenge, they WOULD screw up and have issues.

not any more though. now it's like the writers are so afraid of fans criticizing the characters that they won't criticize them themselves.

take off the grid for example. what would have redeemed cambo the magnificent would have been sam reaming cam for his bonehead idea. it NEEDED that. it needed someone to point out what we were screaming at the screen....

Spoiler:

why should mister 'i've never seen much less been on a hatak ship but i'm in a bad mood' storm the ship while the two people, who have not only been on the ships, one of them has the floor plans memorized, stay behind????

that kind of blindless only accentuates the weakness of the characters and the writing

Uh, to the bolded. Wouldn’t that sort of flaw be of the fatal flaw variety for a "super negotiator"? If you are going to make them "super" in something, you can’t make the flaw one that would crush what they are supposed to be "super" at, if your intention is to make it at all believable. It would be like saying Carter is a physics wiz but she stinks at math. It doesnt make any freaking sense.

Cam and Vala are both written in that same respect. Very inconsistant with their "flaws" contedicting their "skills". Cam is supposed to be this super natural leader solider guy but he cant control is emotions or seemingly lead or act professional when he is not around his bosses. Vala is supposed to be some super con artist, but we are supposed to believe she would cow tow to the SGC and that she is actually a stupid little girl with a crush on Daniel. Which is it? She playing the SGC or is she just a misunderstood idiot who got away with her crimes because her victims were stupider then her? I mean the writing would lead you to believe she is an immature, impulsive idiot which is in direct opposition to the Vala that was originally introduced. It makes no sense. The people she enslaved must have been complete morons because she is not a very good con artist.

[JessM]

they don't talk, cause talk is boring. who wants to watch talking? especially when there are some nice scantily clad aliens over there and look, something can blow up!!!

Ah yes - how quickly I forgot that! *remembers hearing about what PDL said on... one of those directors' series things*

[JessM]

I looked forward the Ben Bowder and CB coming to the series when it was annouced RDA was retiring.

Then I saw the series and wondered what happened. Mitchell is kind of like, Opie. No real personality to the character. Did the dumbest things and never repremanded for it. Southern boy who talked about grandma but read all the files. Thus he knows everything.

Landry has yet to impress me. He was doing better than Mitchell--but not by much. Letting a thief on SG-1. Leting Mitchell lead SG-1. Having Carter take a back seat and why is Teal'c there now?

I like Vala when Daniel is not around her.

Poor Sam, they never finalized what her relationship was with jack after RDA left. They could have said, yes or no. Not, "not really." Insulting to the fan base that followed thier silly little stunt.

No, Val/Daniel. Oh, man, that's all the show is now. Fanfic on fiction.net seems to be all D/V. Now, I see why J/S was so annoying to readers. That's all there is--it's as if these young writers can't think outside of the presented show. Oy, the Ori and Vaniel...bad enough it being shoved down our throats on the series.

Agreed on all points. I like Vala when she isn't attached to Daniel myself, when she's allowed to interact more with the other characters and shown to stand on her own.

I'm seeing the same thing on fanfiction.net. Lots of D/V fics and even D/V fans who are just readers and don't have any fics up. I've already gotten a few ridiculous comments from some of them And not sure if I mentioned this yet (here anyway -- if I have, feel free to stop me)... but there's a Daniel fic archive for gen and het pairings, and a D/V author was emailing writers of pairings other than Vaniel and asking them to submit Vaniel stories so that the number of those stories surpasses that of the other het Daniel pairings and "becomes canon."

How does the amount of stories of one pairing - on one smallish fan site - dictate what becomes canon in the series (unless it already is canon, like Daniel/Sha're, Daniel/Sarah, Jack/Sara, Teal'c/Shau'nac, etc...)? Guess I missed something...

[Jackie]

Agreed on all points. I like Vala when she isn't attached to Daniel myself, when she's allowed to interact more with the other characters and shown to stand on her own.

I'm seeing the same thing on fanfiction.net. Lots of D/V fics and even D/V fans who are just readers and don't have any fics up. I've already gotten a few ridiculous comments from some of them And not sure if I mentioned this yet (here anyway -- if I have, feel free to stop me)... but there's a Daniel fic archive for gen and het pairings, and a D/V author was emailing writers of pairings other than Vaniel and asking them to submit Vaniel stories so that the number of those stories surpasses that of the other het Daniel pairings and "becomes canon."

How does the amount of stories of one pairing - on one smallish fan site - dictate what becomes canon in the series (unless it already is canon, like Daniel/Sha're, Daniel/Sarah, Jack/Sara, Teal'c/Shau'nac, etc...)? Guess I missed something...

You didn't miss anything. The show had such a hard sell with Vala they shoved her onto Daniel's hip. Made sure MS made extra nice comments about CB and treid seeling it as show cannon.

There is a sucker born every minute. Some of the fan base ate it up, hook line and sinker. I see Vaniel as nothing more than a way to make a hard sell. Of course, there will be fans who will make it show cannon just because the show seems to hint at it. One would figure that after the Sam/Jack scandle, the writers would lay off the casual hinting at a wanted love. I guess not.

I feel that most of the fans who watched the series for years dropped it after the "big switch" in season 9. Many of them never came back and I bet many were also fan fic writers too. I don't see as many of the S/J writers like I used too. I noticed many of the handles for fan fic and here seem to have some Vaniel in them. I figure what we have now is the newer ones that was picked up in the last two seasons. The people who think Mitchell and Vala brought new life to a dead show.

Oh, well...can't win them all.

[Skydiver]

Uh, to the bolded. Wouldn’t that sort of flaw be of the fatal flaw variety for a "super negotiator"? If you are going to make them "super" in something, you can’t make the flaw one that would crush what they are supposed to be "super" at, if your intention is to make it at all believable. It would be like saying Carter is a physics wiz but she stinks at math. It doesnt make any freaking sense.

what i meant was....weir's in command, alledgedly. Except when it comes to shep. she tells him to do something. he ignores her, does the Hewo, and instead of busting his cajones, she just rolls her e yes and moves on...she's ineffectual. It's like they've tried so hard to make her nice that they've made her nothing but a figurehead leader.

either that or they tried so hard to make her not Jessica's weir, that she's rather blah. Now i'm not dissing torri in any way, but i enjoyed Jessica's feisty weir a lot more than i do torri's weir. a 'super negotiator' is also a super bluffer. a master manipulator. someone that can read people and anticipate them. this weir doesn't do that. She just lets the story carry her along and responds every once in a while.

Cam and Vala are both written in that same respect. Very inconsistant with their "flaws" contedicting their "skills". Cam is supposed to be this super natural leader solider guy but he cant control is emotions or seemingly lead or act professional when he is not around his bosses. Vala is supposed to be some super con artist, but we are supposed to believe she would cow tow to the SGC and that she is actually a stupid little girl with a crush on Daniel. Which is it? She playing the SGC or is she just a misunderstood idiot who got away with her crimes because her victims were stupider then her? I mean the writing would lead you to believe she is an immature, impulsive idiot which is in direct opposition to the Vala that was originally introduced. It makes no sense. The people she enslaved must have been complete morons because she is not a very good con artist.

very much so. they're walking contradictions. how am i supposed to believe that cam was special forces when he runs off half cocked all the time? (mostly in s9 here) he lets his emotions rule his actions. that is NOT special forces. Part of thier training is to smash those emotions down and fulfill the mission.

vala...yeah, how am i supposed to see her as the super smart con artist when she's trailing after daniel all the time and playing cutesy?

the writers TELL us the characters, then write them however the heck they want them to be to make the story easier to tell. they warp/sacrifice the character to make thier writing easier.

which is a flaw that's plagued the show since coop took the reins.