S10: Critique & Contemplation

[Melora]

"Was" is the operative word, there.
Whether one liked Cam's addition, or not, he was inexperienced-he isn't now.
He wasn't the most experienced military officer on the team, now he is. Can you not separate seasons 9 and 10 from the movies, or will your enjoyment of any forthcoming plot be tainted by an introduction that was almost 4 years ago now?

For me, the movies are tainted by what happened in Seasons 9 and 10 (and not just Cam's introduction). I can sort of compartmentalize and pretend they are a separate entity or an alternate reality, but they are not really the same as classic SG-1 to me. In my mind, the SG-1 I loved ended with Moebius. I can find some enjoyment in parts of Seasons 9-10 and the movies, but I don't love them. I like most of the characters, but I no longer love them like I once did. Once I came to terms with that, I think I was more able to accept the show/movies for what they were. Even though the third movie will supposedly focus on Jack, I still do not believe that it will recapture the love I once had for the show.

It's like the old saying - "You can never go home again." To me, classic SG-1 (Seasons 1-8) was "home." But Seasons 9-10 changed too much and in the process I changed too much. I guess what I'm saying is that for me it's not so much about Mitchell (or even Vala) and how he was introduced. It's more about how my love for the show was extinguished in Seasons 9-10 by a multitude of choices that TPTB made.

Some people loved those same choices that disappointed me so very much and I'm happy for them. Unfortunately, I just can't feel the same way as I did anymore and nothing is going to change that.

Boy, that was a real downer. Sorry about that.

I think I will now look through pics of Jack and pantless!Cam to cheer myself up.

[amconway]

Boy, that was a real downer. Sorry about that.

Lol! Not a problem! I just count myself lucky that it didn't affect me the same way. I would have written parts of season nine very differently if I were doing it, and Vala made me want to smack her into next week, but I still enjoyed it overall. It was still my SG-1, especially when Daniel was doing stuff like sacrificing himself to gain Merlin's knowledge. And when the Ori ships came pouring out for the gate and blew the fleet to heck, with poor Sam hanging in space? Chilling! So, I guess I'm just lucky.

Now go look at pretty pictures until you smile.

[suse]

I agree, until Ex Deus Machina, I think, Mitchell was the only official member of SG-1. Then it was my understanding that once Daniel, Teal'c, and Sam officially rejoined the team, Carter and Mitchell were co-leaders. This was kinda backed-up in season 10 when Mitchell said he didn't command anyone, something I still find incredibly silly for a front-line military unit. And in any case, Daniel, Teal'c, and later Vala would have been under Mitchell and Carter's command because they were civilian members of SG-1.

Once Carter left for Atlantis, Mitchell became the sole leader of SG-1, and it's my understanding that after the events of Enemy at the Gate Sam is still no longer an official member of SG-1, in part because I just don't see the character going back to being co-leader of SG-1 after commanding Atlantis and being in-line to command a 304.

So no, I don't object to Mitchell as SG-1 leader at this point, but I found it difficult to accept him as co-leader during seasons 9-10 because it didn't make sense to me for the most inexperienced member of the team to be in a leadership position. That just, IMO, unnecessarily muddled the command structure of SG-1 and led to incidents like Off the Grid and Ethon.

Co-leader makes no sense. There's liberties and then there are things that would *never* happen. Co-lead is one of them. Besides, the whole co-lead thing was from Joe Mallozzi. It's not canon. Canon is Mitchell is leader. No matter how it's played, the LMAH is team leader. And a rash, inexperienced (in gate travel) one at that. TPTB tried to have it both ways. A fresh faced excited n00b and a leader at the same time. Doesn't work. Not with the experience the other characters have.

The only reasons I don't object to Mitchell at this point is 1) Sam isn't part of SG-1 (as far as we know) and 2) I gave up on expecting what is imp "good" from Stargate after being disappointed (yet again) in Continuum. My comment when the credits started rolling was "The end." Continuum was my last gasp hope for overall enjoying new SG-1. Nope. No more. It had it's good moments, but at the whole grandfather paradox. I'd have much preferred Mitchell onscreen about the same amount of time as Vala and Jack. CB played Quetesh incredibly well though. The underuse of RDA was disappointing also. NB: Please don't peg me as a disappointed S9/S10 RDA fan. I was happy for him if he wanted to go raise his daughter full-time. Frankly, I was a bit relieved and thought his leaving would improve the stories. Oops.

Suspension of disbelief is very important in sci fi. And it's pretty delicate, hence why not ignoring the canon/rules you set up at the beginning is so important. Once that disbelief is shattered, there is no fixing it.

One of the rules our heroes were honorable people.

So they add Vala and write her as "sexy" and "fun", ignoring the attributes they 'gift' her with do not make on honorable person. Oops. So they massively backtrack and put her in Daisy Dukes, pigtails and 'personalized' BDU's, lower her IQ by at least 20 points - or have her act that way "Let's have her (an alien!) carry a hairdryer offworldand use it as her prized possession! How funny! Sure it was... on Spaceballs. I didn't realize SG-1 was a parody. My mistake. so she can join the team. Too late, buds. Six eps of what came before that make me distrust what she was for much of S10.

Another rule is our heroes are competent at their jobs. Oops again. They wrote the leader as a(n untrained) hothead unwilling to listen to experience for such reasons as information wasn't falling into their laps (Off the Grid) or he "was having a bad day" (Stronghold). In general, they wrote him as "the hero" when before the whole team were heroes. Vala wasn't even a competent con artist, or she'd have been able to keep her mouth shut in the Ori galaxy. Con(fidence) artists by definition play a long game gaining trust, they don;t shoot off their mouths.

I won't even start on the Ori. I could have dealt with them if I liked that new character additions. The Goa'uld 'gods' weren't a particularly strong enemy - though the thought of being taken over by them was creepy. It was the personas of some of them that was cool. The Ori had no personas. Adria was an attempt, but the only thing I found interesting about her is she interited her mummy's leather fetish.

There were moments in many eps that - taken by themselves - were amusing/interesting. Overall... not so much.

[suse]

For me, the movies are tainted by what happened in Seasons 9 and 10 (and not just Cam's introduction). I can sort of compartmentalize and pretend they are a separate entity or an alternate reality, but they are not really the same as classic SG-1 to me. In my mind, the SG-1 I loved ended with Moebius. I can find some enjoyment in parts of Seasons 9-10 and the movies, but I don't love them. I like most of the characters, but I no longer love them like I once did. Once I came to terms with that, I think I was more able to accept the show/movies for what they were. Even though the third movie will supposedly focus on Jack, I still do not believe that it will recapture the love I once had for the show.

It's like the old saying - "You can never go home again." To me, classic SG-1 (Seasons 1-8) was "home." But Seasons 9-10 changed too much and in the process I changed too much. I guess what I'm saying is that for me it's not so much about Mitchell (or even Vala) and how he was introduced. It's more about how my love for the show was extinguished in Seasons 9-10 by a multitude of choices that TPTB made.

Some people loved those same choices that disappointed me so very much and I'm happy for them. Unfortunately, I just can't feel the same way as I did anymore and nothing is going to change that.

Boy, that was a real downer. Sorry about that.

I think I will now look through pics of Jack and pantless!Cam to cheer myself up.

Here, here! Except the pantless!Cam bit. :

I'm lucky in that I can separate 'classic' SG-1 from 'new' SG-1. I know some who can't and have given away (or destroyed) all their Stargate DVDs.

suse

[amconway]

I'm lucky in that I can separate 'classic' SG-1 from 'new' SG-1. I know some who can't and have given away (or destroyed) all their Stargate DVDs.

Good Lord, really? That's seriously overwrought...

[suse]

Good Lord, really? That's seriouly overwrought...

Whether I agree with the decision or not it was their choice and it didn't hurt anyone. Heat of the moment stuff, at least - unlike other instances - threats weren't made against TPTB/other fans for disagreeing with them.
/topic about fandom

suse

[amconway]

threats weren't made against TPTB/other fans for disagreeing with them.

Overwrought is one thing, freaking nuts is another.

[silly sally]

Just to be fair to Cam, he made it very clear to Landry that he didn't see any of them as subservient to him, he was just glad they were on the team.

Coop's lip-service to appease angry Sam fans...

[silly sally]

One can only assume that she didn't disagree. Good looks didn't stop her from getting irked with Daniel or Jack...
Seriously, though, I have to think that if Amanda Tapping thought there was something wrong with the characterization, she would have brought it up. It's not as if she hadn't taken the writers to task before.

She certainly was surprised when Coop said he didn't know what to do with Sam anymore; and she was the last one to be offered a contract for S10! There were plans to have Amanda/Sam only as a recurring character for SG-1/Atlantis! Also Amanda nixed Coop's intentions for Sam/Cam ship...

[suse]

Just to be fair to Cam, he made it very clear to Landry that he didn't see any of them as subservient to him, he was just glad they were on the team.

Sorry, I actually agree with <<cough>> SillySally here. The Cam and Landry leadership chat came in S10, not when the team was reformed. So for more than a few the conversation rang very hollow, as an attempt to salvage what was a Very Bad Idea we were all stuck with.

ETA: And that's about the only time I'll agree with him/SillySally. And the topic of S10 contracts isn't a part of this thread either. Well, it was when it was happening and several very strong theories were bandied about. But without clarification that's all they are.

suse

[suse]

You're fine talking about the movies here. Not in super depth, but if S9 (because it held the seeds of S10) and earlier can be held as a standard, there's no reason the movies cannot be.

Just remember the movies had no bearing on what happened in S10, so they are fairly easy to discount. By the time they came around opinions of the characters/storylines were entrenched.

ETA: This post was in response to a (since deleted) rather tonishly rude post.
suse

[amconway]

Just remember the movies had no bearing on what happened in S10, so they are fairly easy to discount. By the time they came around opinions of the characters/storylines were entrenched.

I'm not expecting to change anyone's mind, really, just bringing it up for comparison.

[Skydiver]

Look, the thread's name is "S10[ critiques and contemplation" if you want to talk about the movies go play somewhere else!

the better - and more rule abiding - way to phrase this is: While this is primarily a season 10 thread, movie discussion has been allowed, just not in depth and not for lengthy durations

As a mod i would say the random comment isn't massively bad, but if the plan is to discuss the movie in depth, then perhaps the post would be better made in the thread appropriate to that movie.

[jckfan55]

They didn't have to disband the team for that. There are umpteen posts in this thread with many possible scenarios that could have had Sam injured/elsewhere helping out/etc, etc, whilst Amanda was away.
In my opinion, the disbanding of SG-1 was done so that Mitchell could be inserted into the show.

I don't think so, because they knew well ahead of time she would be absent for a few episodes. And just look at how they handle others who take time off. MS was given his own story arc of becoming a prior They could have written Sam out for a few episodes more beleivably than disbanding SG1, just to put the new guy in charge, a position which Sam earned over the years of being a memeber and then leader of SG1.

Exactly. I guess if they weren't writing the alien baby scenario they didn't know what to do about AT's pregnancy and resulting temporary absence.

[jckfan55]

I have seen some of the ideas that some have said and they would work if the show was Stargate Sam Carter but it's not. I get the impression that some would only accept Mitchell if he was subservient to Sam and that does not make sense to me Jack was not subservient to Sam so neither should Mitchell.

Subordinate perhaps. Not subservient in the way that term is often used--as if he were her slave. I would have preferred Mitchell to be of a lower rank than Sam so that Sam could continue in command of SG1 as she had been in S8. Barring that, if they had made Cam a more mature, competent commander I could have accepted that.

And as much as I love Sam, one of my main objections to S9 & 10 was the focus on certain characters at the expense of TEAM.