S10: Critique & Contemplation

[AGateFan]

I'd be inclined to think that the Daniel/Vala interaction was always intended to help win fans in her favour. Vala alone would have to sink or swim on her own merits but if Vala's presence is associated with more screentime for Daniel, perhaps TPTB hoped that Daniel fans would be clamouring to have her back.
I think that somebody was very keen on the idea of having CB there full time and tried to ease Vala's path by pairing her with a character who had a fanbase of his own.

BB was brought in as the lead, and presumably is being paid the same salary whether he is the lead in fact or in name only. If TPTB never intended to have Mitchell as anything more than wallpaper once Vala was a regular, then it seems a foolish move to pay for a lead they didn't plan on using instead of sticking with a three person team for Season Nine and then having Vala as the fourth.



I hope that Sam on Atlantis works out well.

I do think this was the plan and I think it worked as well as it could work. I doubt that many of the Daniel fans would be as big a Vala fans if it didnt mean more Daniel. Vala as written just doesnt fit into the SG-1 universe and I think that a majority of the fans of the stories of the show and the team spirit of the show should see that. But if you are only watching the show to see a pretty actor or two then it wont make one lick of difference to you if the stories make sense or not.

[Zoser]

snipped

Vala is far more tolerable without Daniel IMO, however that would also require much needed character development. Vala has far more development that Mitchell or even Teal'c right now.

I've been wondering what the heck is Teal'c doing here or rather why.
It just makes sense that he would be involved in the formation of the government of the Jaffa Confederation. His alligence was basically with O'Neill.
The 'we need you' and his seemingly 'I'm bored' routine is lame (as is most of the rest of the motivation)

[Skydiver]

i have the same opinion.

vala - in fitting in with the boys' idea that unless a woman is half a pair, she's useless - was paired with daniel (couldn't pair her with ben, that would be just too blatant of a farscape ripoff) because -to MANY daniel fans, what counts is screen time. Doesn't have to be 'good' screen time, because to many folks, any screen time for daniel is good.

so if vala = more daniel, then vala is a good thing. I believe that pairing the two was a deliberate manipulation by TPTB to get some 'oh, more, more more please' letters from some fans.

and there's been the bonus that the two actors enjoy working with each other. the downside is, at least from the pov of many other viewers, that Vaniel isn't as appealing to the general fen as it is to a group of it.

It would frankly be the same thing if, you take all the vaniel scenes, and turn them into sam/jack. some fans would love the obsessive focus on their favored pair, while others would be cringing and ticked off and bored because of it.

I thik it does boil down to, it's not as much WHO thier is this obsessive focus on, but that there simply IS an obsessive focus.

The fandom as a whole is made up of folks that like varying aspects of the show. And if an episode is to have a wide appeal, there needs to be a lot of stuff in there for as many people as possible. give us some sam/cam, sam/teal'c, teal'c/cam, sam/daniel, teal'c/vala, sam/vala,etc. moments

but they seem incapable of doing that. If you - the general you - dont like vaniel, there's not much else in the show. We have these new characters, meant to interject some new blood into it...but that new blood is stymied by it being confined to only one aspect, Vaniel and tons of it.

With this obsesive focus on only one aspect, the show has lost the broad appeal it used to have. And while Vaniel fans may certainly be a vocal little bunch...they don't have enough ratings boxes amongst them to make a difference.

[Skydiver]

I hope that Sam on Atlantis works out well.

i hope so too.

while i certanly understand folks' fears for their favored characters, i really don't have any on atlantis - other then Lorne - so i like sam moving over, simply because i will now have someone on the show that i care about.

If i heard spoilers that anyone - other htan lorne - ws gonna be written out....my biggest concern would be 'oh great. now so and so's fans are gonna be in a tizzy', not 'man, how will the show get along without him/her'

In many ways, atlantis is a better show, but i find the characters so flat that i really don't care about them.

i really hope sam is handled well. at the very least, it'll make my purchase of atlantis s4 dvd's a 'oh gotta have' instead of the 'eh, whatever' that they are now

[Jackie]

i hope so too.

while i certanly understand folks' fears for their favored characters, i really don't have any on atlantis - other then Lorne - so i like sam moving over, simply because i will now have someone on the show that i care about.

If i heard spoilers that anyone - other htan lorne - ws gonna be written out....my biggest concern would be 'oh great. now so and so's fans are gonna be in a tizzy', not 'man, how will the show get along without him/her'

In many ways, atlantis is a better show, but i find the characters so flat that i really don't care about them.

i really hope sam is handled well. at the very least, it'll make my purchase of atlantis s4 dvd's a 'oh gotta have' instead of the 'eh, whatever' that they are now

Hit the nail on the head with Atlantis. Your veiwers need to connect with the character and not the pairings. Atlantis had much potential in the first year.

I liked the ford/sheppard interaction because Ford was the "daniel" of the pair. He had the wonderment about him and I think many people connected with it. Instead of dropping RF they should have used season 2 to develope Ford more. They could have brought in Ronin if they wanted to but many people saw the drop ford for for ronin as a blantant disregard for devloping thr charcaters in favor of just putting on some big, harry, chewbacca type character that really hasn't fleshed out well. Ronin is as underdevloped as ford and he had 2 full seasons. Ford only had one.

The other problem with SGA is everything is centered on a selfish, annoying character that should not be the star of the show but the supporting actor. Sheppard and Weir were supposed to have been the main characters--now it's all Rodney, sheppard and then Weir. (in that order)

The characters never developed because everything became Rodney this and Rodney that. I tried writting for Rodney...I can only stand him for about three chapters and then I want to sick Teal'c on him.

SGA won't last past season 4 if they don't get thier act together and start writing good characters that we care about. As SGA stands right now--if DH were to be suddenly up and quit--they show would have a major problem re-writing itself into soemthing more character driven.

[Skydiver]

i don't see it so much as a focus on rod - not to derail this thread - but a focus on only one aspect of his character. His rants.

dude rants all the time. first time or two it was ok, but beyond that it was a cliche.

and i think it mirrors issues on stargate. rodney rants, vala vamps, cam goofs, teal'c indeeds, sam babbles, daniel Vaniels....everyone is in a rut.

and because of this the characters don't step out of thier cliche so they become predictible. add to this mix stories that seem to perpetuallly take the easy way out - it's quite common for me to have the whole plot figured out by the second commercial break, and i don't read the explicit spoilers. I think the only gobsmack moment i had in s9 was Gerak. Every other plot 'twist' was telegraphed from the second act...and you end up wiht a rather predictible show.

i know what's gonna happen, i know who's gonna rant, who's gonna touch, who's gonna hewoically sacrifice and have a good idea which deus ex machina will come into play and all of a sudden the 'reward' for finishing the show isn't finding out what happens, it's getting confirmation that you predicted right

how about shaking things up a bit.

let's have teyla paired iwth Lorne, or rodney with ronin, or shep with cadman...i dunno, something different.
let's get lizzy off the city and out into the field whiel shep has to stay home and mind the store.

if they can'tdo this, can't mix it up a little, then i do agree, the show is likely doomed to end at s4.

these writers will never be able to crank out something plot heavy like BSG. it's just not thier MO. And the effects will never be stellar. they're good, certainly, but the show will never have the budget. but if they'd just take the run of the mill stories and concentrate on the one thing they can control..that really doesn't cost more, focusing on the characters and making htem interesting, they can have another steady show on thier hands

[Rogue]

I would love to see Sam going off world with Sheppard and McKay--that would be an awsome trio--they could even leave in Ronin as the lineblocker. I know AT loved working with the Atlantis cast and IMO I think it reminds her of working with the old version of SG-1. So, I'm glad Sam gets a second chance to be Sam again. I just hope the writer's don't really screw it up.

I am actually excited about Sam moving over to Atlantis. If done right, it could be a positive move for her.

[ReganX]

It would frankly be the same thing if, you take all the vaniel scenes, and turn them into sam/jack. some fans would love the obsessive focus on their favored pair, while others would be cringing and ticked off and bored because of it.

Fond as I am of the Sam/Jack ship, I would be revolted if I saw Sam sexually harass Jack, or vice versa. I would like Sam/Jack screentime, but not if it is to be used as an excuse for cheap sex jokes.

[ReganX]

I am actually excited about Sam moving over to Atlantis. If done right, it could be a positive move for her.

If done right, it could be great - but the same could have been said of introducing Mitchell and Vala.

I hope that Coop is kept away from the show-running of Atlantis.

[Frostfox]

Fond as I am of the Sam/Jack ship, I would be revolted if I saw Sam sexually harass Jack, or vice versa. I would like Sam/Jack screentime, but not if it is to be used as an excuse for cheap sex jokes.

Oh, they've tried it with Jack and Sam as well.
I don't think having an invisible man hanging around in the women's showers is cute or funny and I don't want to think of Jack like that, even as a 'cheap sex joke'.
I was always a bit dubious about him kissing her in Window of Opportunity too.

FF

[LaCroix]

Oh, they've tried it with Jack and Sam as well.
I don't think having an invisible man hanging around in the women's showers is cute or funny and I don't want to think of Jack like that, even as a 'cheap sex joke'.
I was always a bit dubious about him kissing her in Window of Opportunity too.

FF

My problem with that scene is that I do not know who wrote that one. I may suspect that JM wrote that one as a homage to The Fantanstic Four (movie)
since after watching it on cable. It did remind me of that shower scene.

And since JM is fond of things that are anime/comic books, that's my reasoning. Also he may have seen the movie.

[Frostfox]

My problem with that scene is that I do not know who wrote that one. I may suspect that JM wrote that one as a homage to The Fantanstic Four (movie)
since after watching it on cable. It did remind me of that shower scene.

And since JM is fond of things that are anime/comic books, that's my reasoning. Also he may have seen the movie.

I didn't care who wrote it, it was still tasteless.

FF (Trying to imagine Susan Richards doing that to someone - haven't seen the Fantastic Four film but I read the comics a few decades ago and she was a rather staid, married woman)

[Gregorius]

And since JM is fond of things that are anime/comic books, that's my reasoning. Also he may have seen the movie.

Just for the record: Most anime, if not all, and most comics have better storylines than most TV-Series/Movies. One of the few series that have gone as deep as good anime is B5 (And Heroes as it is at the moment, but it hasn't run that long to decide yet).

[Jackie]

The shower scene didn't bother me that much. I understood the "joke" behind it which was an invisable man denying that he was in the ladies showers when nobody can see him in the first place. (I have a handicapped daughter--with handicapped children there is no such thing as privacy for them or thier parents. I'm getting dressed and she walks into my room, "mom I want to watch such and such and can't turn the channel. Help me.")

Also, there really isn't much for privacy in the lockerooms to begin with--I found the co-ed locker and showers in BSG more disturbing that the invisable Jack because it was considered the norm. In SG-1--Jack knew he wasn't supposed to be in there. A tasteless joke but then again--the whole episode was beyond anything normal.

Comparing jack/sam ship to daniel/vala ship is like comparing apples to oranges. I could tolerate jack/sam over daniel/vala because of the maturity behind it. Jack/Sam was a forbidden type of longing or wanting that went agaist regs and they could have both been courtmartialed for having an affair when Jack was Sam's commanding officer.

With Vaniel--there is no reg to beef up tension (forbidden love is always a tear jerker). Since there was no forbidden wants or desires the writer's chose to make Vala immature and Daniel aggressive. That took MS out of character and made the "sexual tension" seem more like the 3 stooges. The scenes were one--slap--short of a noogie. (I was waiting for Daniel to place Vala in a headlock and rub the top of her head with his knuckles. Then have Vala grab Daniel's nose and slap her hand ontop of her good hand.) The "sexual tension" was slap stick comic relief--not forbidden love. It just became silly and unreal. Vaniel IMO are two little kids playing.

If they wanted to make Vala, Daniel's main squeeze they needed to have MS stay in character and challange Vala to prove to him that she wasn't going to betray them. Instead Vala went to Ori-world and that was her trial by fire. Kind of lame!

[Skydiver]

i can take two separate but similar events

invisijack spying on sam in the shower vs vala jumping in daniels' bed

ok, yes, i am not a fan of Vaniel, so my impression is no surprise but i can look at those two situations differently and the shower scene does bug me less. but not necessarily because it is sam/jack. it's because of a couple of fundamental differences between them

first

sam and jack have known each other for years. at thier best, at thier worst. even if you ignore any shippy aspects, these are two people who have been friends for years and always will have a sort of friendship. and one forged in a lot of life and death situations.

so, again ignoring the shippy angle, i see invisijack as more of a joke. he was in the locker room while she was showering. he didn't jump in the shower with her. he didn't directly physically 'threaten' her.

vala, on the ohter hand, jumped in daniel's bed, in her skivvies. After however many days/weeks of trying to get 'in his pants'. she was in his bed, the cliched 'place of secks' so i didn't find it as funny, simply because that scene was more of a physical 'threat' than jack in the shower

not surprising i know and my Vaniel tolerance is a lot lower than my sam/jack one, so my opinion isn't exactly proof of either one being worse or better than the other.

but it is something that will color how i see the characters. sam and jack have years of history, y ears of proving that they have feelings and emotions while vala has little more than a track record of using whatever she can to get whatever she wants.

If they truly want vaniel to replace sam and jack as the 'canon ship' they need to make it more than a joke and lame bunch of sex jokes. Right now, vaniel isn't a relationship, it's just a plot device that allows coop to portray daniel as the hero of the show, complete with his own girlfriend