S10: Critique & Contemplation

[suse]

Neither do I.

The original cast, the writers, directors and the episodes they created for the "old" show are the reason the show lasted as long as it did.

To be honest, I think that the Sci-Fi channel execs were so determined to reach their milestone that they would have continued until the end of Season Ten with AT, CJ, MS and a couple of completely unknown actors if CB and the two BBs hadn't been available.

Would have worked for me. Perhaps I'm giving the B@B too much credit, but ifthey'd have had to put some thought/planning into the characters and not relied on the newly hired actors built in fanbase perhaps we wouldn't have what we got. Still cancelled, sure. But not the mess SG-1 became.

Perhaps not also. I think they were concentrating more on Atlantis and letting SG-1 coast.

Suse

[Mandysg1]

Would have worked for me. Perhaps I'm giving the B@B too much credit, but ifthey'd have had to put some thought/planning into the characters and not relied on the newly hired actors built in fanbase perhaps we wouldn't have what we got. Still cancelled, sure. But not the mess SG-1 became.

Perhaps not also. I think they were concentrating more on Atlantis and letting SG-1 coast.

Suse

And we all know AGateFan's thoughts about coasting

[Skydiver]

i agree with the coasting part. and i can even understand it.

despite all the spin and hype, sg1's been on borrowed time for years. expenses were going up, ratings have been going down and you knew, even if the ratings stayed high, eventually the original cast would be ready to move on

i can understand giving atl the emphasis. the show COULD have 4-5 years left to it....if they can just get thier heads out of thier miktas and take a good hard look at it. look at what made sg1 so good and try to recapture some of that old magic.

solid stories, great character interaction

which means they gotta stop doing things like they are, stop with the cliches, stop with the by the number writing, sit down and take a look at the show and identify its weaknesses.

give these characters some depth. eps like Sateda should be the norm, not the exception. develop these characters, delve into what makes them tick, why they get along, how they get along.

the new villians don't have to be 'bigger' than the ones before, they just need to be more interesting. they need to be smart, they need to be conflicted. they need to be unpredictible.

when they're writing an episode and it's tme to make a decision...dont' take the obvious way out. don't do 'well, shep always saves the day'...dude, yeah he ALWAYS does it. so how about having him be wrong and let Lorne do it for once.

if rodney screws up and someone gets killed..don't find a gimme and an excuse for why it's not rod's fault. It IS his fault. let him deal with it. let him face the consequences of his actions.

cause you can't let atlantis coast. it's stumbling harshly in s3 and it'll fall flat on its face in s4 if you dont' take some serious time an shore up its foundations

[esoap524]

Has anyone ever heard Beau Bridges sound arrogant in an interview before? I haven't. I think this is a guy who is happy to be part of SG-1 and proud to be around during the tenth year.

Anyway, that's how I took his interview when I read it the first time.

I think Bridges has been in the business too long, and has taken his share of hits, to sit on the high and mighty. It seems to me that the newcomers are at a bit of a disadvantage when it comes to discussing "200" yet they get asked anyway.

develop these characters, delve into what makes them tick, why they get along, how they get along.

the new villians don't have to be 'bigger' than the ones before, they just need to be more interesting. they need to be smart, they need to be conflicted. they need to be unpredictible.

LOL--well, ironically, and of course to inflame the masses, I have to say that your two points are exactly what made Farscape good--time spent developing the characters, their interactions, why they get along (or not), how they get along.

And when it was time to introduce a new bad guy (Scorpius) they came up with this creepy, ghoulish type guy but also gave him motivations. He was very smart but not superpowered; in other words, no real god-like powers other than he could sense when someone was lying to him (they didn't play that up a lot) and he was very smart. He was also single minded in his pursuits; even though they were contrary to the hero's goals, they still were valid and understandable--you knew why he was doing what he was doing even if you thought it was evil.

And the "hero" didn't always save the day. Sometimes he did, sometimes he did temporarily and then ended up causing a whole host of new problems.

For me, that's what makes a show interesting, not moving characters from point A to point B.

[Skydiver]

and the Frat Boys have fallen into the trap of

bigger is better
all halllowed the plot. the characters are nothing but pawns to service the plot

thus we get silly villians that are more laughable than serious. or we get good villians - ba'al - turned into jokes for the sake of 'wow, let's clone him!!!!!!!'

we get characer bits sacrificed all the time to make sure that the plot necessary stuff stays in.

an we end up with television by the numbers, laughable villians and weak characters

one thing i like about galactica. the heros are sometimes the baddies. and you often ask yourself, who is worse? the humans or the cylons?
and 'we' lose. humans die, humans screw up, humans do horrible things

there's a fantastic depth that makes it interesting. and then add to that the fact that ron moore seems to deliberately do the least expected thing. Kara's the hero, she should win...but she doesn't always win. In fact, she sometimes loses.

and it just makes her better, it just makes the show better

teh frat boys could be well served to take a look at the WRITING of babylon 5, BSG or Farscape....not the effects. not the chicks, not the costumes, THE STORIES, and see how a well crafted show can be made and try to homage that for a change

[esoap524]

there's a fantastic depth that makes it interesting. and then add to that the fact that ron moore seems to deliberately do the least expected thing. Kara's the hero, she should win...but she doesn't always win. In fact, she sometimes loses.

and it just makes her better, it just makes the show better

teh frat boys could be well served to take a look at the WRITING of babylon 5, BSG or Farscape....not the effects. not the chicks, not the costumes, THE STORIES, and see how a well crafted show can be made and try to homage that for a change

The shows you mention all feature that aspect--the hero doesn't always win. The hero, certainly, isn't always likeable. You know why? Because they are people and people sometimes to do stupid, unlikeable things, or think they're doing the right thing without foreseeing the consequences of today's actions.

I've gone thru a marathon Grey's Anatomy. No, it's not sci fi but I think it's relevant to the topic of plot vs character. I didn't sit and watch my 5 episodes in a row because I wanted to see each hospital plot, all of which are interesting but still....I watched because I wanted to see how these people were going to deal with the consequences of their actions, whether those consequences were personal or professional.

That's the same reason I got addicted to Farscape--John and Aeryn have a separation and I want to see how they resolve it. Someone dies--what happens to the remaining partner? etc, etc.

BSG--What's gonna happen when Sharon goes to retrieve her hybrid-kid? What's she gonna do to those to lied to her? What's Dee gonna do about the Lee/kara thing? etc, etc, etc

I have to say, post season 9, one of my favorite episodes has been "The Powers that Be". It's starts off humorously, ridiculously ott. Then you see Vala dealing with the consequences of her actions, consequences she obviously did not foresee back when she was committing those actions. You see that she realizes those were bad things. And then, when she makes an attempt to save the day, it fails. And when they confront the Ori, she, Daniel and Teal'c are left on the losing end, confronting an enemy she and Daniel unleashed and knowing they're getting their butts handed to them.

All this other running and chasing and quipping just doesn't do it for me unless there's something going on beneath the surface--certainly, both Farscape and Grey's Anatomy (my new favorite) feature lots of running and chasing and quipping. They're both very laugh out loud funny in an off beat way. But there is definitely something going on on a deeper level. Right now I just don't see it most of the time on SG1.

[Nolamom]

teh frat boys could be well served to take a look at the WRITING of babylon 5, BSG or Farscape....not the effects. not the chicks, not the costumes, THE STORIES, and see how a well crafted show can be made and try to homage that for a change

An homage of B5? That would be tough to pull off. Too much rich texture, characterization, depth of storyline...no quicky throwaways to steal pay homage to.

[Strix varia]

one thing i like about galactica. the heros are sometimes the baddies. and you often ask yourself, who is worse? the humans or the cylons? and 'we' lose. humans die, humans screw up, humans do horrible things

there's a fantastic depth that makes it interesting. and then add to that the fact that ron moore seems to deliberately do the least expected thing. Kara's the hero, she should win...but she doesn't always win. In fact, she sometimes loses.

and it just makes her better, it just makes the show better

teh frat boys could be well served to take a look at the WRITING of babylon 5, BSG or Farscape....not the effects. not the chicks, not the costumes, THE STORIES, and see how a well crafted show can be made and try to homage that for a change

See, I wouldn't want Stargate to be another BSG. Frankly, there are times when I don't enjoy BSG because I really don't like any of the characters. Sure it's edgy, and, yes, the writing is usually very good (though not always), but I like the fact that Stargate (and Star Trek) have a very different feel and flavor to them. The dramatic movement is significantly different from BSG. It's a more comedic formula (also a safer formula), and it's a formula that I happen to enjoy very much.

I think they've tried to make Atlantis darker and edgier, and that's one of the reasons I don't like Atlantis as much as I liked SG-1. They've gotten away from their successful comfort zone, and it's fallen flat in some cases, IMO. I happen to like happy endings, and I don't find wallowing in moral and ethical ambiguity to be a necessary part of good entertainment. But I watch TV purely for escapism, and I prefer to escape to happy places, spending time with people/characters that I would actually like to know in person.

I would agree that they need to put more effort into good storytelling. There's a difference between writing a show with a comedic formula (usually ending on a high note, rather than a downer) and writing a slap-stick comedy, and they seem to have gotten the two confused.

[Skydiver]

But there is definitely something going on on a deeper level. Right now I just don't see it most of the time on SG1.

you're right. there is nothing 'deep' going on. not since coop got his paws on teh show.

it's all superficial and shallow. no real undercurrents.

ok, in the first few eps, teal'c had issues with cam...now all of sudden he doesn't? dude, t-bear is not the forgive and forget and we're all fine kinda guy. Jaffa REvenge thing. he's got the memory of an elephant and carries grudges.

so what did cam do to all of a sudden earn cam's trust?

dunno. never saw it, don't think the writers have even considered it...they just got tired of teal'c and cam being at odds and it dind't work anyway since they're obsessed iwth pairing them up all the time.

on bsg, kara's got issues with lee and adama and tigh and now dee. adama's got issues with lee and kara and his own guilt and roslyn and who knows what else.

and, just like you said, what will sharon do? what will helo do? how will dee react to lee and kara?

there's more than the 'evil cylons chasing the poor humans' to the story. there's all these little interpersonal issues that drive the show as well.

we haven't had taht since season 6.

right now, in s9 and 10, we ain't got no team. we simply have a bunch of peopel wearing the same uniform that happen to have the same name as the established characters but really aren't always them

it's like some plagarized fanfic i've read upon occasion. where a person - i will not call her an author - does a search and replace, pulls out 'scully' and 'mulder' from a fic, replaces it with 'sam' an 'jack' and then tries to pass an x-files story off as a stargate one.

sure, the names are the same, but the characters are wrong.

and that's what these boys seem to be doing with thier homages. swiping whole plots, then warping the existing characters to fit them...and then getting all grumpy with the fans when we go 'dude, what is so and so doing? they don't act like that'

[AGateFan]

And we all know AGateFan's thoughts about coasting

[AGateFan]

See, I wouldn't want Stargate to be another BSG. Frankly, there are times when I don't enjoy BSG because I really don't like any of the characters. Sure it's edgy, and, yes, the writing is usually very good (though not always), but I like the fact that Stargate (and Star Trek) have a very different feel and flavor to them. The dramatic movement is significantly different from BSG. It's a more comedic formula (also a safer formula), and it's a formula that I happen to enjoy very much.

I think they've tried to make Atlantis darker and edgier, and that's one of the reasons I don't like Atlantis as much as I liked SG-1. They've gotten away from their successful comfort zone, and it's fallen flat in some cases, IMO. I happen to like happy endings, and I don't find wallowing in moral and ethical ambiguity to be a necessary part of good entertainment. But I watch TV purely for escapism, and I prefer to escape to happy places, spending time with people/characters that I would actually like to know in person.

I would agree that they need to put more effort into good storytelling. There's a difference between writing a show with a comedic formula (usually ending on a high note, rather than a downer) and writing a slap-stick comedy, and they seem to have gotten the two confused.

This is exactly it. The show went on for 8 strong years and was never like BSG. Why make it like BSG now? Why not just make it like Stargate. I dont like BSG. I loved B5 but for different reasons then Stargate and I dont want stargate to be like it. I liked Farscape fine but to me it was never as good as Stargate I certainly dont want Stargate to be like it anymore then I would Farscape to be like Stargate. They both were what they were.

Stargate was plenty successful without the soap opera so why all the desire to shove it in, I will never know. I just know that I miss STARGATE........dammit.

[Skydiver]

i don't mean that they need to be dark and gritty like bsg...but some character interaction and depth would be nice.

interpersonal conflicts, angry moments, confrontations...conflict.

the show DESPEATELY needed some conflict. cause with that gone all that was left was the story, and it's pretty weak (and hey without the characters, bsg redux woulda lasted about as long as the first one did)

[Mandysg1]

i don't mean that they need to be dark and gritty like bsg...but some character interaction and depth would be nice.

interpersonal conflicts, angry moments, confrontations...conflict.

the show DESPEATELY needed some conflict. cause with that gone all that was left was the story, and it's pretty weak (and hey without the characters, bsg redux woulda lasted about as long as the first one did)

That's how I took what you wrote Indeed they have to get back to the characterizations...not make them like BSG, but make them like themselves, not with multiple personalities to fit the plot. S6 just started replaying on the channel I watch SG1 on...and talk about conflict! That's how they should have handled the introduction of the new characters.

[esoap524]

See, I wouldn't want Stargate to be another BSG. Frankly, there are times when I don't enjoy BSG because I really don't like any of the characters. Sure it's edgy, and, yes, the writing is usually very good (though not always), but I like the fact that Stargate (and Star Trek) have a very different feel and flavor to them. The dramatic movement is significantly different from BSG. It's a more comedic formula (also a safer formula), and it's a formula that I happen to enjoy very much.

I think they've tried to make Atlantis darker and edgier, and that's one of the reasons I don't like Atlantis as much as I liked SG-1. They've gotten away from their successful comfort zone, and it's fallen flat in some cases, IMO. I happen to like happy endings, and I don't find wallowing in moral and ethical ambiguity to be a necessary part of good entertainment. But I watch TV purely for escapism, and I prefer to escape to happy places, spending time with people/characters that I would actually like to know in person.

I would agree that they need to put more effort into good storytelling. There's a difference between writing a show with a comedic formula (usually ending on a high note, rather than a downer) and writing a slap-stick comedy, and they seem to have gotten the two confused.

I don't think it's a matter of one show being "like" another. I like Farscape better than SG1. I like SG1 better than Battlestar because it's not quite as exhausting and dramatic; nevertheless, BSG does do a good job of developing characters.

The point is that right now SG1 doesn't seem to be paying a lot of attention to the characters and their development. At the end of the day, you have to care about the characters. The only one I have any real feelings for is Vala and that may just be because I really like CB. But she seems to be the only one who isn't sleepwalking thru the story. I don't know if it's a case of the actors just not interested in the material, or the material being so dull that not even good actors can make me care.

No, you definitely cannot make SG1 into Farscape or BSG-you shouldn't. It's a completely different show with a completely different vibe. But you should still present characters who are interesting, who are dynamic, who are multi-dimensional and who relate to one another on various levels.

The Adria/Vala storyline on its own has loads of potential: mother/daughter interaction, human vs god conflict, values in conflict, Vala's "I brought this into the world and how do I stop it"; they touch on that in "Counterstrike" which is why I like that episode. "The Quest" was a perfect opportunity to continue that, but no. Lots of Vala quips (irritating!) and Adria's fixation on Daniel that really has no basis. Is it because he ascended? Is it because her mother has the hots for him? Is it because the plot dictates it?

As for everyone else...what is it they DO do? Because other than reciting some lines and finishing each other's sentences, none of the rest are given an emotional stake in the stories. I do NOT blame that on the actors at all; all of them in their past work have shown that emotional stake in their performances. I don't see it here, in the storylines.

[pittsburghgirl]

i don't mean that they need to be dark and gritty like bsg...but some character interaction and depth would be nice.

interpersonal conflicts, angry moments, confrontations...conflict.

the show DESPEATELY needed some conflict. cause with that gone all that was left was the story, and it's pretty weak (and hey without the characters, bsg redux woulda lasted about as long as the first one did)

what i wasn't fond of was the fact that there was no consequences no real continuity for the characters, with the characters and between the characters. thre was no real connectivity-with Battlestar and with Babylon 5-there was something that intrigued you about the characters and their back story and their emotional ties and entanglements-look at the holes in their continuity-ie: Beneath the Surface-do I really need to go into detail onwondering why Sam and Jack's attitude the next episode showed no repurcussions??? they had -what was for them-an intimate relationship-but next episode-oh- that-it was a stand alone-it means nothing.

okay so i'm babbling-but my point-and i have one-is there was no emotions engaged in a lot of the episodes-my favorite episode is Singularity. It had everything i would want-emotion, consequences, something that connected the characters to the others.