S10: Critique & Contemplation

[ReganX]

What a shock. I don't want to presuppose anything, but I don't expect to be around by the time this...thing...airs.

I really want to give S10 a fair shake (then I guess I shouldn't be here) but...Oy. <SIGH>

Suse

The lower your expectations of Season Ten, the more pleasantly surprised you'll be in the unlikely event that there are any decent episodes there.

[Simhavaktra]

So, according to the spoilers for Shroud (and would that be Turin, ratlines, mist, or general-purpose temporary cowling?)

Spoiler:

Daniel Jackson is turned into a Prior of the Ori. Well ain't that a kick in the teeth to all the generations of faithful who strove for the 'honor' and died as religious peons nonetheless? The outsider with the personal history that indicates potential power gets the position, and loyalty counts for naught. Obviously, the believers weren't watching season 9, or they'd have known it would go just that way.

The "Rendezvous at Farpoint" homage is looking more and more likely - Daniel goes glowy and squidly and becomes a great, Ascended weapon for truth, justice, and the Milky Way, saving the galaxy from the dominion of the odious Ori at the climax of season 10, and only Cammie and Val are worthy of following in his luminous trail into Stargate avatar/incarnation 3.

Pardon whilst I go and ralph up my cheeseburger. Gotta get all that cheese into the hands of the b@b. From the sound of it, they plan to corner the world market on cheese for season 10.

[Amanda Eros]

Spoiler:

Well, if Daniel's gone Orii (an obvious turn of events since they were mentioning that they were going to do a controversial story line for him) can we please have Jonas Quinn come back now.... Just kidding, I wouldn't want the show ruining another great character.

[ReganX]

Spoiler:

Well, if Daniel's gone Orii, an obvious turn of events since they were mentioning that they were going to do a controversial story line for him, can we please have Jonas Quinn come back now.... Just kidding, I wouldn't want the show ruining another great character.

Spoiler:

Mitchell can get really upset about losing a member of "his" team and, as everybody is too busy dealing with the threat of impending doom to take time to pat his head, wipe his nose and tell him what a great guy he is and how its really not his fault, he hands in his resignation and goes home, where Grandma comforts him.

In his absence, Jonas can come back and, when Mitchell skips back into the SGC a few days later, the others explain that its nothing personal, but Jonas screws up a heck of a lot less and contributes a heck of a lot more than he ever did and they're going to keep him.

[LaCroix]

Spoiler:

Mitchell can get really upset about losing a member of "his" team and, as everybody is too busy dealing with the threat of impending doom to take time to pat his head, wipe his nose and tell him what a great guy he is and how its really not his fault, he hands in his resignation and goes home, where Grandma comforts him.

In his absence, Jonas can come back and, when Mitchell skips back into the SGC a few days later, the others explain that its nothing personal, but Jonas screws up a heck of a lot less and contributes a heck of a lot more than he ever did and they're going to keep him.

But do we really want to do that to Corin?

ETA: As much as I want CN back, S10 would be cruel and unusual punshisment to inflict on him.

[MediaSavant]

Hi guys. I did a goofy thing, but the results are interesting.

Starting with Simhavakatra above, I looked at the public profiles of the most recent ten posters to this thread.

Six of the ten listed Sam as a favorite character, or, in one case, named a favorite episode with Sam. Two people listed no favorite actor. One was clearly a Jonas fan and another listed Daniel.

Then I went to the Pro-Season 10 thread:

Not one of the last ten posters listed Sam as their favorite. Five listed Jack, 2 Vala's, 2 Mitchell's, 1 Daniel fan, and one person listed no favorite.
(in some cases, there were 2 characters named and in a few cases favorites were assumed either from a handle or the photos chosen)

I know it's preferable to assume that "it's about the writing", but I do think who one's favorite character is and how they perceive that character to be treated by the writers must have an influence on opinion.

The pattern just doesn't appear to be random.

[Skydiver]

But do we really want to do that to Corin?

ETA: As much as I want CN back, S10 would be cruel and unusual punshisment to inflict on him.

yeah, he's moved onto bigger and better things

anyway, he comes back, folks will just blame him for the show's demise, so i'd rather have him be free and clear

[Skydiver]

I know it's preferable to assume that "it's about the writing", but I do think who one's favorite character is and how they perceive that character to be treated by the writers must have an influence on opinion.

The pattern just doesn't appear to be random.

i don't think that character preference is the only thing, but i'm sure it has something to do with it

however, how many of these folks who are 'anti' now were prefectly happy - or relatively so - with prior seasons????

the writing HAS altered. episodes have less and less of a general appeal and are often geared solely towards one character, or a pair of them.

which means, if you're a vala fan, OMG do you have a TON to look forward to. Vala is central to pretty much every single episode in the first half of s10.

if you like cam you also have something to look forward to. cam gets to do a lot

daniel as well has something

that blonde chick and the black dude???? are they still around?????

my point being, even if it's a vala story, going by last season and season 8 and 7 (imho) there won't be much in it for fans of any of the other characters.

take lifeboat for example. tons of stuff for shanks and rothery's fans.

teal'c was there, jack was quickly written out and sam was nothing more than scenery

whereas grace, sam all the time. teal'c was there, jack was there as was daniel

then compare those to FIAD or AP or ITLOD. in all three of those epsodes, two of which are considered daniel eps, itlod is seen as a sam eps, there was something there for the others. we got to see how jack sam and teal'c felt about daniel quitting, or how they dealt with evil daniel or how jack, daniel and tealc' were effected by sam being possessed.

it wasn't 'all sam all the time' it was a true ensemble, with focus and featured characters sure, but not exclusivity.

so while you research may have some effect and may make it easy to dismiss those pesky nay-sayers, it DOES still boil down to writing. and the perceived lack of quality in said writing and the overemphasized focus in said writing

imho, the show is no longer being written with a broad appeal, but with fragmentary and insular appeal...thus every episode is more likely to have 'love it' and 'hate it' rather than having a majoriy of viewers able to pull at least something out of it to fit their preferences

[Strix varia]

Hi guys. I did a goofy thing, but the results are interesting.

Starting with Simhavakatra above, I looked at the public profiles of the most recent ten posters to this thread.

Six of the ten listed Sam as a favorite character, or, in one case, named a favorite episode with Sam. Two people listed no favorite actor. One was clearly a Jonas fan and another listed Daniel.

Then I went to the Pro-Season 10 thread:

Not one of the last ten posters listed Sam as their favorite. Five listed Jack, 2 Vala's, 2 Mitchell's, 1 Daniel fan, and one person listed no favorite.
(in some cases, there were 2 characters named and in a few cases favorites were assumed either from a handle or the photos chosen)

I know it's preferable to assume that "it's about the writing", but I do think who one's favorite character is and how they perceive that character to be treated by the writers must have an influence on opinion.

The pattern just doesn't appear to be random.

Isn't "the way the character is treated by the writers" the same thing as "the writing?" So... I'm not sure I get your point.

To imply that the writing hasn't changed at all this season is disingenous, I think. The writing had to change to incorporate new characters, and with the new characters came a very different tone and emphasis in the storylines. It's those changes that some people like, and others don't.

Actually, the fact that five pro's listed Jack as their favorite character is kind of interesting to me. But I could have told you there was a pattern without doing a survey. The question is, so what?

I would say a lot of Sam fans are disillusioned with the writing in season 9, and a lot of that dissatisfaction stems from how the writers treated Sam in season 9. Does that make us less likely to forgive and forget other problems? Probably. Does it affect our enjoyment of the show? Of course. Certainly it does for me. (I should also point out that many Sam fans are happy with the changes, so you shouldn't assume that all Sam fans are anti's, because it's not true, even if they didn't show up on your brief survey.)

Now if you're trying to tell me that the show doesn't have an entirely different feel to it now... that the tone is the same and there is still the same emphasis on team and drama that it did before... we'll just have to agree to disagree. Whether those changes are good or bad is entirely subjective, but I firmly believe that they are there, and I don't think the perception of their existance has anything to do my being a Sam fan. My being a Sam fan may influence how I label the changes, but that doesn't change the fact that things are different.

While you're doing your demographic survey, you might also check the average age and gender of the pros and antis. My suspicion is that you'll find more young adult males who are pro than anti. That, too, I suspect, is due to the writing. How many pro fans are former Farscape fans? All of this has to do with decisions that have TPTB have made (hiring Ben and Claudia) and the writing (writing Mitchell and Vala into prominent positions).

Now, I realize that there's nothing inherently right or wrong with what TPTB have done. They've made changes. Some people like the changes. Some people don't. But I believe the changes are real, and they're tangible, and they're having a significant effect on some viewers' enjoyment of the show. And it does have everything to do with how the show is being written. You may feel more comfortable dismissing our opinions as bitter Sam-fans throwing a fit. Okay. If you like the show and want it to continue, you should be concerned about how many of us there are. Are there enough disappointed fans to hurt the ratings when we tune out? That remains to be seen.

Frankly, I don't think Sam fans are entirely alone in the boat of disillusionment. I think that once Daniel is wallpapered in favor of Mitchell and Vala bonding, you're going to see growing unhappiness among the Daniel fans, too. (Although, it sounds like they might have given Daniel at least one interesting story-line next season, so perhaps not, which is more than I can say for Teal'c and Sam.)

I really don't understand why you keep coming to the anti-thread to poke at us. What does it matter to you if many of us like Sam? If it mattered to TPTB, they'd change the direction they're writing Sam (apparently out of the show as much as possible, as best I can tell). But, really, I don't think they care. And I don't think that's going to happen. It's the Mitchell/Vala comedy show (the comedy show coming right from TPTB's own lips, and the Mitchell/Vala part coming directly from season 10 spoilers) with Daniel, Teal'c, and Sam tossed in as sidekicks.

Ultimately the ratings will tell the story. Did the changes attract more viewers than turn them off? I think the show is going to tank, and they'll be lucky if it doesn't take Atlantis with it. But I'm not a media savant, so what do I know? (Um, seriously... I just have my ignorant opinion to rely on, and I recognise that...) If I'm wrong, I'll be happy for Amanda and everyone involved in the franchise. If I'm right... well, let's just say I told you so and leave it at that.

On edit: I should point out that I don't mind you poking at us; at least you're polite about it, and you provide interesting information. But I am curious as to why, because you don't seem to be anti...

[Amanda Eros]

But do we really want to do that to Corin?

ETA: As much as I want CN back, S10 would be cruel and unusual punshisment to inflict on him.

:igh:: I need to come up with a new sig. I love Jonas, but the show isn't good enough for him anymore. Some while back the person who ran jonasquinn.com said the same thing. I thought I would stick it though season nine, hopefully it would get better. But season ten is just a whole new dimention of poor tv.

[GeneralHammond]

I decided not to read this topic as IT'S INCREDIBLY LONG
but here goes

SEASON 9 Boasted all the worst episodes in stargate history, (except "Need" & "Cor-Ai") Avalon being the worst.

It's not very often that a show decides to bow out whilst in it's prime, "Star Trek TNG" being the only one which comes to mind. Some of the lucky shows are cancelled in their prime "Farscape", "Firefly", but some shows just go on and on and on until it starts to look stupid and the producers love it so much they won't quit.(mind you who can blame them, i wouldn't want to make over 80 people jobless.)

But their comes a time when a NETWORK should understand that a show NEEDS to be cancelled, not because it's a ratings failure, but because it needs to be remembered for how it ENDED BRILLIANTLY, not a shambles like "Enterprise" or "Star Trek: Voyager" (Hmm, 2 trek shows ended badly 'interrobang')

STARGATE SEASON 10 SHOULD BE IT'S LAST

AND THERE SHOULD BE NO 3rd SPINOFF (at least until Atlantis gets to season 8.

[AGateFan]

Hi guys. I did a goofy thing, but the results are interesting.

Starting with Simhavakatra above, I looked at the public profiles of the most recent ten posters to this thread.

Six of the ten listed Sam as a favorite character, or, in one case, named a favorite episode with Sam. Two people listed no favorite actor. One was clearly a Jonas fan and another listed Daniel.

Then I went to the Pro-Season 10 thread:

Not one of the last ten posters listed Sam as their favorite. Five listed Jack, 2 Vala's, 2 Mitchell's, 1 Daniel fan, and one person listed no favorite.
(in some cases, there were 2 characters named and in a few cases favorites were assumed either from a handle or the photos chosen)

I know it's preferable to assume that "it's about the writing", but I do think who one's favorite character is and how they perceive that character to be treated by the writers must have an influence on opinion.

The pattern just doesn't appear to be random.

My favorite character is the team.
And to assume someone is your favroite character just because they have a pic of that person is not valid when any one of the team could be in the picture. But then lets just continue to pigion hole because its so much easier then just accepting that the show is bad.

Of course, then again, most people that know the show is bad stopped posting or never posted and only us "overly loyal (may say zellous)cant believe what the heck happened" fans are left.

[AGateFan]

i don't think that character preference is the only thing, but i'm sure it has something to do with it

however, how many of these folks who are 'anti' now were prefectly happy - or relatively so - with prior seasons????

the writing HAS altered. episodes have less and less of a general appeal and are often geared solely towards one character, or a pair of them.

which means, if you're a vala fan, OMG do you have a TON to look forward to. Vala is central to pretty much every single episode in the first half of s10.

if you like cam you also have something to look forward to. cam gets to do a lot

daniel as well has something

that blonde chick and the black dude???? are they still around?????

my point being, even if it's a vala story, going by last season and season 8 and 7 (imho) there won't be much in it for fans of any of the other characters.

take lifeboat for example. tons of stuff for shanks and rothery's fans.

teal'c was there, jack was quickly written out and sam was nothing more than scenery

whereas grace, sam all the time. teal'c was there, jack was there as was daniel

then compare those to FIAD or AP or ITLOD. in all three of those epsodes, two of which are considered daniel eps, itlod is seen as a sam eps, there was something there for the others. we got to see how jack sam and teal'c felt about daniel quitting, or how they dealt with evil daniel or how jack, daniel and tealc' were effected by sam being possessed.

it wasn't 'all sam all the time' it was a true ensemble, with focus and featured characters sure, but not exclusivity.

so while you research may have some effect and may make it easy to dismiss those pesky nay-sayers, it DOES still boil down to writing. and the perceived lack of quality in said writing and the overemphasized focus in said writing

imho, the show is no longer being written with a broad appeal, but with fragmentary and insular appeal...thus every episode is more likely to have 'love it' and 'hate it' rather than having a majoriy of viewers able to pull at least something out of it to fit their preferences

Funny, I had a guy at work say this to me today. He said the last season he really liked was season 6 because after that there were more and more eps dedicated to just one character. He thought the show was much much better when all the team was working together in the episodes. He doesnt watch anymore, but he quit before S8 so hes not a anti s-anythinger. He just stopped liking the show as much when the team started going away.

He had been one of my early loanmydvdsto converts. But he doesnt have cable and has never asked for anything after S7... he just catches some eps in syndication.

[esoap524]

But their comes a time when a NETWORK should understand that a show NEEDS to be cancelled, not because it's a ratings failure, but because it needs to be remembered for how it ENDED BRILLIANTLY, not a shambles like "Enterprise" or "Star Trek: Voyager" (Hmm, 2 trek shows ended badly 'interrobang')

Add "The Xfiles" for shows that went on longer than they should have.

Okay, I like Ben Browder and Claudia Black and am glad to see them on TV in seasons 9 and 10 but, really---how many more adventures can you have with a Stargate and not repeat yourself? I would think after 200 episodes you would just start to run out of new ideas. Maybe, with new characters, you'd have new reactions (i.e. Doggett on Xfiles becoming more like Scully and Scully being more like Mulder...) but you'd probably have very similar plots.

Team goes thru the Stargate, bad guys are on the other side, new technology is found and war is waged against the baddies with the good guys prevailing.

Admittedly, that's a very boiled down analysis but, after 200 episodes, what new stuff are you going to do unless you're going to be completely different, which likely isn't going to bode well with your fan base, as has been evidenced here with all the "it's becoming Farscape/Firefly/Battlestar" kvetching?

BTW, it's not any of those, and I watch them all. All three of those shows feature characters dealing with moral ambiguities. You don't usually have that as a main factor in SG1. Fans want the good guys to prevail and to be heroes in white hats, thus, the dislike of Vala and her moral turpitude. And she's small potatoes compared to some of the characters on those other shows.

I can't imagine a Stargate show with that type of characters being very popular. It's brand is "good guys prevail" not "good guys face have to commit immoral acts for the sake of the greater good....maybe..." If the writers/producers want to go that route, they'd have to drop the Stargate brand altogether or risk ticking off a lot of folks.

[smurf]

I can't imagine a Stargate show with that type of characters being very popular. It's brand is "good guys prevail" not "good guys face have to commit immoral acts for the sake of the greater good....maybe..." If the writers/producers want to go that route, they'd have to drop the Stargate brand altogether or risk ticking off a lot of folks.

Actually, this is how I would describe Jack O'Neill.
Shutting the iris in someone's face, choosing to destroy a civilisation to save those still living, destroying Reese, leaving Fifth to name but a few. Only without the unnecessary innuendo.

Vala could be good, but it does require some deft writing. But taking the strong woman equals loose sexual morals route (not sure if this is one up or down from strong woman = lesbian route) denies the depth to her character which would have come from just having a slightly dubious moral attitude.