S10: Critique & Contemplation

[Vladius]

How is an ancient weapon of any sort not a Deus ex machina by that definition?

SG-1 has been saved many, many times in the course of the show by technology or other things on the spot.
Take, for example, the complete ridiculousness that is the episode "Bane," where Teal'c is taken in by a super soaker-wielding child so that he will have someone to protect him while he fights off mutating into a bug. Just some stuff like that.

And, of course, since the Ori were a derivative of the Ancients, it only makes sense that they would have a weapon they could have used but didn't because of the ethical implications.

[Ulkesh47]

I think that the worst "character-building" episodes of Season 10 are "Uninvited" and "Family Ties". Both are big, honkin' messes of cliches. "Uninvited" tried to develop Mitchell and Landry; "Family Ties" tried Vala and Landry. Tried is the key word here.

[Vladius]

I especially hated Family Ties, but not because of its concept. It was more about how they just threw in the Jaffa at the end because they wanted action in the episode, and didn't want a coherent way of doing it.
It was a cool idea to show her dead beat dad, but they execution was sloppy.

[EvenstarSRV]

How is an ancient weapon of any sort not a Deus ex machina by that definition?

I've taken 'deus ex machina' to be something or someone that comes almost out of nowhere at the last second to help a person win a seemingly unwinnable situation. So to me, Garak in 4th Horseman and the Ark definitely fit that description, the Sangraal a little less so since there was some lead up to it, though it did defeat the seemingly invincible Ori in a single-blow.

But yes, to an extent I feel all the Ancient weapons have an element of deus ex machina in them, which is why I dislike how much more prevalent they became in the later seasons.

SG-1 has been saved many, many times in the course of the show by technology or other things on the spot.
Take, for example, the complete ridiculousness that is the episode "Bane," where Teal'c is taken in by a super soaker-wielding child so that he will have someone to protect him while he fights off mutating into a bug. Just some stuff like that.

From what I remember of Bane, the girl that found Teal'c didn't swoop in at the last minute and single-handedly save Teal'c, it was a combination of SG-1 getting the bug's venom and developing a treatment, keeping the symbiote alive, and the girl helping them find Teal'c that saved him.

And, of course, since the Ori were a derivative of the Ancients, it only makes sense that they would have a weapon they could have used but didn't because of the ethical implications.

What I don't get about the Ancients was if they believed so much in non-interference, then why did they leave so much tech/weapons strewn about the galaxy for 'lesser' beings to find and potentially use? It doesn't seem like they'd trust mere mortals to take into account the same ethical considerations that they did.

I think that the worst "character-building" episodes of Season 10 are "Uninvited" and "Family Ties". Both are big, honkin' messes of cliches. "Uninvited" tried to develop Mitchell and Landry; "Family Ties" tried Vala and Landry. Tried is the key word here.

I agree about Family Ties, but I did enjoy the bonding between Sam and Vala and Teal'c and Vala in Uninvited, as well as the poker scene at the end from a character-building perspective.

With Mitchell and Landry, I wish they'd taken some time to also develop the relationships between Landry and the other SG-1 members.

[jckfan55]

I especially hated Family Ties, but not because of its concept. It was more about how they just threw in the Jaffa at the end because they wanted action in the episode, and didn't want a coherent way of doing it.
It was a cool idea to show her dead beat dad, but they execution was sloppy.

I hated the whole thing from start to finish.
I failed to understand why dad had to be a deadbeat criminal. More interesting if Vala learned her criminal ways from Quetesh & for survival after the Tok'ra freed her.

And have you ever noticed--it's like no one has a mother on the show. Even though Cam has a mom (whom we saw in the gawd awful HS reunion episode--excuse me landline? which was possibly the least of the problems) we never hear him talk about her. We get the following in dad's footsteps thing in the memories ep & of course--grandma. Did grandma live with them? Did his parents dump him off on grandma ever summer? What's the deal? Or do I really want to know.

[VSS]

I think that the worst "character-building" episodes of Season 10 are "Uninvited" and "Family Ties". Both are big, honkin' messes of cliches. "Uninvited" tried to develop Mitchell and Landry; "Family Ties" tried Vala and Landry. Tried is the key word here.

To me it was totally laughable that Landry ordered them up to Jack's cabin for a team-building weekend after an entire year as a combat team. As if risking life and limb for each other and trusting him to run the show isn't enough of a bonding experience. Surely, if they weren't a team and/or weren't comfortable with him I doubt they were ever going to be and should have been disbanded long before that.

Put another way, could you ever have seen Hammond doing that- or Jack being willing to follow along? It just struck me as very contrived and more suited to middle management at IBM rather that a crack military unit.

[VSS]

As an aside, did you guys notice they quite posting transcripts of SG-1 eps here on GW halfway through season 9?

Lack of interest?

[Gregorius]

As an aside, did you guys notice they quite posting transcripts of SG-1 eps here on GW halfway through season 9?

Lack of interest?

Probably. From what I know of the transcibers they're mostly the "old" members of GW and a lot of those members severely dislike S9/10, and therefore wouldn't want to sit through the episodes a couple of times (or even buy the DVDs) to get the transscript right.

There's a but, though. Should GW add a riffing section I bet that the S9/10 transscripts will be added in no time with a lot of funny comments.

[Ashizuri]

I hated the whole thing from start to finish.
I failed to understand why dad had to be a deadbeat criminal. More interesting if Vala learned her criminal ways from Quetesh & for survival after the Tok'ra freed her.

Because that way, it wasn't Vala's fault she was the way she was. Her dad is to blame for all her lying, theiving ways because he didn't love her enough, was never around, didn't teach her right from wrong, blah, blah, blah. I viewed it as just another "get out of jail free" card so Vala could be absolved of any crimes she committed without actually having to pay the piper for her misdeeds.

[scifithinker]

lets see, a group of beings who used their super powered technology to make people worship them as gods, killing anyone who didn't.

Aliens playing gods? Wait a minute, are they "false gods?"

Seems familiar...almost like I've seen this story before...


They were the same badguy we'd seen for 8 years, just dressed a bit differently. It's like putting a pig in a dress and trying to pass it off as a woman. Nope, still a pig.

That's why the Ori were boring for me. You can take away the glitter eye-liner and gold lame' but as badguys go, the Ori and the Goa'uld were pretty interchangable, and they did it better the first time around.

I personally found the Goa'uld infinately more appealing and dangerous. I mean, it took more than a magic box for SG-1 to defeat the Goa'uld. And for all we know, they're not defeated. (Goa'uld Kinsey is alive. Is, is, is! He had potential to be soooo awesome. He made it off that Alkesh, I refuse to believe otherwise.)

While your comparisons are valid, I disagree with your conclusion. The Goa'uld had better-developed motives as a species, and each individual had a personality. They had societies that we got to see. Their actions had individual consequences, and they were a much more immediate enemy. The Ori were so far removed from the action that they were a concept as opposed to an enemy. We were told how big and bad they were, but it wasn't well-illustrated through their actions. As a result, they were never as interesting as the Goa'uld.

[suse]

Because that way, it wasn't Vala's fault she was the way she was. Her dad is to blame for all her lying, theiving ways because he didn't love her enough, was never around, didn't teach her right from wrong, blah, blah, blah. I viewed it as just another "get out of jail free" card so Vala could be absolved of any crimes she committed without actually having to pay the piper for her misdeeds.

Funny.

Though Vala never did any jail time for her misdeeds. Being host to Quetesh doesn't count, she did most of her 'bad' stuff after being freed.

Several of us did a game called 'Rename the Episode' in S9.

suse

[Ashizuri]

While your comparisons are valid, I disagree with your conclusion. The Goa'uld had better-developed motives as a species, and each individual had a personality. They had societies that we got to see. Their actions had individual consequences, and they were a much more immediate enemy. The Ori were so far removed from the action that they were a concept as opposed to an enemy. We were told how big and bad they were, but it wasn't well-illustrated through their actions. As a result, they were never as interesting as the Goa'uld.

What I meant was, at the bottom line, the Ori and the Goa'uld were such similar creatures (false gods), with the same basic goals (worship me) and the same mode of operation (worship or we will kill you) that it really didn't seem like a new storyline and that's why I found them dull. It wasn't a new idea, it was the Goa'uld reimagined. Poorly.

But I 100% agree with you on that the reason the Goa'uld were more interesting was because they were a fleshed out, well developed enemy. We didn't need to be told how bad they could be, we were shown for 8 seasons in glorious technicolor. Sorry if I'm not explaining myself well.

[scifithinker]

Whereas the Goa'uld were cruel, malicious and pagan, the Ori were benevolent....

Benevolent?!? This was a group that routinely wiped out entire populations and used the energy of those who converted to support their society. I hardly call that benevolent. They may have fooled some of their followers into believing they were, but not the majority. Although one may be grateful not to be murdered, one doesn't consider the would-be perpetrator to be good and kind.

Yes, I know, Deus ex machina, blah blah blah. Really, what can you do if your show is canceled and you need to resolve a major story arc in the space of one movie?

It's far easier when you have a good idea of where you want the story to end up so you can put the details in before you're at the end of the story. They also chose to shoot a number of one shot episodes instead of developing the Ori storyline further.

How is an ancient weapon of any sort not a Deus ex machina by that definition?

By definition, deus ex machina refers to the resolution of a problem which has no relationship to how the conflict was developed in the story. The problem is solved with a device that is a surprise because it hasn't been an integral part of the plot.

[Gregorius]

But I 100% agree with you on that the reason the Goa'uld were more interesting was because they were a fleshed out, well developed enemy. We didn't need to be told how bad they could be, we were shown for 8 seasons in glorious technicolor. Sorry if I'm not explaining myself well.

A huge difference between the Ori and the Goa'uld were that the Goa'uld were scary as everyone could have a Goa'uld inside of them. No one was safe, Kawalsky proved that. Jack and Sam both were unwilling hosts for a short time and it was really menacing that there were beings that could take over your body and you were powerless to stop them while still having to pay for their actions (See Jack being tortured by Ba'al or Sam getting attacked by an assassin, etc.).

Now compare such a threat to the Ori. The Ori are like zombies that go "Convert... Convert..." and kill you if you don't. They don't invade minds, there is no way for anyone of the team to get captured and get turned, etc... It really is a step down compared to the Goa'uld.

[scifithinker]

Because that way, it wasn't Vala's fault she was the way she was. Her dad is to blame for all her lying, theiving ways because he didn't love her enough, was never around, didn't teach her right from wrong, blah, blah, blah. I viewed it as just another "get out of jail free" card so Vala could be absolved of any crimes she committed without actually having to pay the piper for her misdeeds.

Though Vala never did any jail time for her misdeeds. Being host to Quetesh doesn't count, she did most of her 'bad' stuff after being freed.

The episode is so heavy on the theme of redemption that it seems like the real message is that we have to accept Vala because she's somehow miraculously redeemed herself and, therefore, deserves to be on SG-1.

Hit me over the head with a sledgehammer, why don't you, guys?