S10: Critique & Contemplation

[Vladius]

Although again this thread has gained a ridiculous amount of posts since you said it'd like to take issue with the snark directed against the spelling of "Lightsabre." Obviously 'Vladius' is unaware that sabre is actually the correct spelling of the word and 'saber' is in fact an americanisation of the word. Lightsabre is in fact a legitimate spelling of the word. In fact I recall hearing that the original Star Wars scripts actually included that spelling rather than 'lightsaber' which is found in the licensed works.


Slightly more on topic: I'd like to agree with people who felt the lucien alliance were uderused as were the Free Jaffa Nation. Season 9 would have been better off dealing with the aftermath of the goa'uld's collapse rather than introducing a new galaxy wide threat.

Obviously, I already knew that, and as a gigantic Star Wars fan, I would know that "lightsaber" is the correct and canon spelling. QED.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lightsaber

EDIT: About the "aftermath" fixation. It wasn't overlooked, and the Ori were also heavily involved. One of the major developing story issues was that the Jaffa, after centuries of Goa'uld reign, were giving up their freedom because they needed a new religious base.

[Vladius]

You're right, and it's good for those that liked the Ancients.

For me personally it was rather painful to watch. What I always liked about Stargate was the realism of the show (as much as a sci fi show can be realistic off course), the things that had a theoretical scientific base expanded into a fictional world. So the Ancients showing up here and there on occasions weren't much of a problem, but when they become the center of the show, it went more into fantasy land instead of science fiction. Just look at the way they were defeated. Magic boxes that no one even tries to understands how they work just happen to be laying around waiting for SG1 to find them. It's like something pulled out of a fairy tale.

p.s Two more things. One, the Ancient in S3 wasn't the only one we met, we found out more about them as the seasons went on. And two, wasn't Atlantis supposed to be the show that discovered the secrets of the Ancients and not SG1?

You said that people shouldn't blame the writers. They are the people that create the stories we're watching. Ignoring what was said and done in the previous seasons of the show just because it didn't work in the new stories was done by the writers.

I thought that you guys didn't watch it for "the technology."
And the Ark of Truth does explain why the Ancients, with all their almost infinite power, had not defeated the Ori yet. They just believed that it wasn't ethical to brainwash an entire galaxy of people.
SG-1 had to use it as a matter of survival, and they didn't take it lightly either.

[KatG]

Preserving the narrative is important if you want ratings, which I think were declining during Season 8. It's also important for a cohesive story and for the development of more characters that you care about. Of course, you don't care about Cam so it obviously wasn't for you.

Yes. The ratings for S8 were so bad that they decided to give it a ninth season, and the ratings for S9/S10 were so wonderful, that as soon as they got their 200th episode in the can, they announced the cancellation of the series.

It's a fact that women feel more pain, and react differently to situations than men do, sometimes for better and sometimes for worse. I'm not saying Sam isn't qualified or that she can't handle it, I'm just stating that you see patterns like that with men and women for good reasons.

So that's why when hubs gets the sniffles he can't even fix himself a sandwich, yet I can be in the bed with the flu, and get up and fix a meal.

I agree that Sam could have easily been leader, but she just wasn't. I don't think it's really any fault of the writers for doing it that way.

How is it not the writer's fault? They wrote it that way. It's certainly not AT's fault. She just acted what was written.

I'll believe that men biologically can endure and withstand more pain than women when a man pushes a ten-pound baby out of one of his orifices without the aid of drugs.

Never going to happen. If men were responsible for childbirth, the population would die out.

Perhaps she could have read the report. It was a few weeks worth. Worked for Mitchell and he had years woth of reports to read.

suse

I could have watched it as mindless entertainment with a few (major) tweaks in the beginiing, like the Mitchell situation. I wouldn't have loved it, but had those first few episode been less horrifically awful, I probably could have bought it and stuck around longer than I did in the hopes it would have gotten better.

Get rid of Vala, change up Mitchell's intro/back story to something that at least exists in the same universe as the shows canon, give me a logical reason for Sam giving up command, give Teal'c lines, get Beau Bridges to give us the kind of performance we know he's capable of, get the stick out of Daniel's back-side, lose Dr. Lam and her "woe is me, I hate my dad" stories, and create a better villian than the lame-o Ori and I likely would have adored it the way I did the first 8 seasons.

Just a small list of changes...

Not asking for much are you?

[jasminaGo]

I thought that you guys didn't watch it for "the technology."
And the Ark of Truth does explain why the Ancients, with all their almost infinite power, had not defeated the Ori yet. They just believed that it wasn't ethical to brainwash an entire galaxy of people.
SG-1 had to use it as a matter of survival, and they didn't take it lightly either.

I don't watch it for the technology. The most interesting part of the show for me are the characters. However the technology they come in contact with all the time does play a role in the show, and I like it when it has ties to reality.

AoT did show why the Ancients didn't defeat the Ori, however my problem was with the way SG1 did it. It was a magic box, that just magically lied there waiting to be found, and just magically changed the minds of everyone.

I really miss the days when SG1 destroyed the enemies with C-4, hand grenades and their own ingenuity. *sigh*

[Petra]

I thought that you guys didn't watch it for "the technology."

Different people watch Stargate for different things. And is it so unusual to enjoy several aspects of the show? Or even all of them, just not to the same degree?

And the Ark of Truth does explain why the Ancients, with all their almost infinite power, had not defeated the Ori yet. They just believed that it wasn't ethical to brainwash an entire galaxy of people.
SG-1 had to use it as a matter of survival, and they didn't take it lightly either.

They didn't? Funny, I don't remember anyone agonising over this, or long heated debates pro and anti...

Besides I think what jasmina meant was that it was never explained how exactly does the Ark work. Not what it does, but how.

Never mind, she was faster than me.

[Vladius]

Different people watch Stargate for different things. And is it so unusual to enjoy several aspects of the show? Or even all of them, just not to the same degree?



They didn't? Funny, I don't remember anyone agonising over this, or long heated debates pro and anti...

Besides I think what jasmina meant was that it was never explained how exactly does the Ark work. Not what it does, but how.

Never mind, she was faster than me.

There was no time for "agonizing debates." If you'll notice, there's a scene at the end where Daniel is talking to Landry about getting rid of it, mirroring the establishing scene where the Ancients are debating about it.
You don't want to see the same debates twice, do you?

One would guess that it works like the rings, and the gates themselves, and the solar flares that allow time travel every time, and the hyperdrive, and the time machine, and the...

Would you want it explained? It's a plot device, like everything else.

[Vladius]

for the bolded part
Does it mean then that the series in those last seasons was/felt medieval?

Personally I got bored with the design in the last 2 seasons, when we got medieval village/Ori ships every other episode. The first 8 seasons had much more variety design/costium/location-wise.

Are you kidding me? Seriously?

Almost the entire time we had the forests of Vancouver, the SGC, or another Ha'tak as the set. I will admit there were some creative ones (Hell, the Moon, the planet in 'Tantalus') but for the most part you couldn't tell the seasons apart visually.
Why does the homeworld of the Goa'uld look like... the forests of Vancouver with more lakes in them? Couldn't their terraforming do better than that?

I recognize they had a much smaller budget back then. But that doesn't mean I'm not glad they put it to great use recently.

[jckfan55]

I agree with this too. Everyone seemed really annoyed by Vala and rolled their eyes every time she spoke. The rest of the team respected Cam only slightly more, but really didn't have a whole lot of respect for his leadership. Cam had some sort of hero worship "please be my friend Sunshine" vibe going with Daniel. And Teal'c and Sam pretty much did their own thing. Not a great team dynamic. I guess S9 & 10 could be called, Stargate SG1 - The Dysfunctional Years.

I love it. And so sadly true.

Actually the Ori weren't original at all IMO. They were just an expansion of the Ancients story. We met the Ancients back in season 3. *shrugs*

And since I never much cared for the Ancients, all the more reason I thought the Ori were boring.

I don't watch it for the technology. The most interesting part of the show for me are the characters. However the technology they come in contact with all the time does play a role in the show, and I like it when it has ties to reality.

AoT did show why the Ancients didn't defeat the Ori, however my problem was with the way SG1 did it. It was a magic box, that just magically lied there waiting to be found, and just magically changed the minds of everyone.

I really miss the days when SG1 destroyed the enemies with C-4, hand grenades and their own ingenuity. *sigh*

You have summed up this part of the appeal (that I share) well.

[Petra]

Are you kidding me? Seriously?

Almost the entire time we had the forests of Vancouver, the SGC, or another Ha'tak as the set. I will admit there were some creative ones (Hell, the Moon, the planet in 'Tantalus') but for the most part you couldn't tell the seasons apart visually.
Why does the homeworld of the Goa'uld look like... the forests of Vancouver with more lakes in them? Couldn't their terraforming do better than that?

I recognize they had a much smaller budget back then. But that doesn't mean I'm not glad they put it to great use recently.

Seriously. Off the top of my head, just in season 1, we had:

Apophis' palace (also interior)
Planet with a dark and light side plus Minoan-style palace
Very specific, glaringly yellow desert with lots of intense blue crystals
Greek-style village
Underground labirynth
Palace in Heliopolis
Ocean/beaches
Volcanic planet
Antarctica
Advanced, if rusty, facility in Tin Man
Ha'tak

plus the SGC, Earth in general, Jack's home, Daniel's apartment and forests.

And this is only the first season. I can do the list for the rest if them when I have a little more time. Compare this to season 9 & 10..all I can remeber are medieval villages. So IMO they didn't put their budget to better use.

[Vladius]

Seriously. Off the top of my head, just in season 1, we had:

Apophis' palace (also interior)
Planet with a dark and light side plus Minoan-style palace
Very specific, glaringly yellow desert with lots of intense blue crystals
Greek-style village
Underground labirynth
Palace in Heliopolis
Ocean/beaches
Volcanic planet
Antarctica
Advanced, if rusty, facility in Tin Man
Ha'tak

plus the SGC, Earth in general, Jack's home, Daniel's apartment and forests.

And this is only the first season. I can do the list for the rest if them when I have a little more time. Compare this to season 9 & 10..all I can remeber are medieval villages. So IMO they didn't put their budget to better use.

That was just season 1, as you said.

[jckfan55]

"Ignore" is my friend.

[VSS]

I don't watch it for the technology. The most interesting part of the show for me are the characters. However the technology they come in contact with all the time does play a role in the show, and I like it when it has ties to reality.

AoT did show why the Ancients didn't defeat the Ori, however my problem was with the way SG1 did it. It was a magic box, that just magically lied there waiting to be found, and just magically changed the minds of everyone.

I really miss the days when SG1 destroyed the enemies with C-4, hand grenades and their own ingenuity. *sigh*

I agree, when the tech tied in with reality- like when it was ours, or a piece of alien tech that we inevitably did not know how to use- it was worth watching. Otherwise, it's all made-up. You can make up anything- and they did in later years, especially in SGA. What really bugged me was when they made up artificial rules for artificial tech, and then "broke" them. Like ZPMs being powerful and rare, then becoming very common. Or explaining away entropic cascade in Ripple Effect when it was critical in Point of View. If they wanted to invent tech, they needed to stick with their own in-universe rules and scientific principles.

Anyway, unless one has invented a complex, consistent fantasy universe (like Star Wars) s the main use of science and tech in scifi is to provide a commentary on our society and ourselves. That's what I missed about the earlier seasons- the tech became reduced to nothing more than cool toys. I really loved eps like Revisions, Memento and Endgame. Blowing up stuff gets old. The magic weapon of the week gets old. Thinking about the impact of tech on humanity never gets old, because that happens in one way or another every day.

Edit: I also wanted to add that Stargate didn't have the money to do tech spectacularly well, either. They could not be a Star Wars. That alone would be reason enough to stick with the tech-as-social-commentary theme, I think.

[suse]

Ori are a deviant sect that gives the Ancients a whole new branch to their history, and a possible reason why they left their galaxy and are severely restricted in power. It also gives them more internal conflicts sometimes in the form of offscreen ethical debates between Merlin and Morgan le Fay. It also expands the Stargate mythos in a significant way when compared with the rest of the canon.

I'd agree about the deviant sect.

I'm also certain that the Ori are why the Ancients left that galaxy too. Though I think that was pretty cruel to the humans there. I'm not so sure they are "restricted in power". They ethically choose to not use it. Not so sure I buy that, but... whatever. Certainly when Morgana/Adria and Oma/Anubis took up the battle they were equally matched. As in stalemate.

The problem with "more internal conflicts sometimes in the form of offscreen ethical debates between Merlin and Morgan le Fay " is that I though I didn't mind the concept of the Ancients I *did* really mind the overuse of "us" interacting with ascended beings. Two seasons based on that interaction - even if the Ori were an implacable enemy - was not to my taste. What good does offscreen ethical debates do the viewers? How did it advance the storyline? We were 'told' they didn't agree. We were 'shown' only when the Ori subjugated or killed ... and the Ancients did nothing. Boring!

As for explanding the universe, again, there where many ways of going that that didn't rely on a Big Bad Guy being contained by using a Pandora's box.

suse

[suse]

I agree, when the tech tied in with reality- like when it was ours, or a piece of alien tech that we inevitably did not know how to use- it was worth watching. Otherwise, it's all made-up. You can make up anything- and they did in later years, especially in SGA. What really bugged me was when they made up artificial rules for artificial tech, and then "broke" them. Like ZPMs being powerful and rare, then becoming very common. Or explaining away entropic cascade in Ripple Effect when it was critical in Point of View. If they wanted to invent tech, they needed to stick with their own in-universe rules and scientific principles.
Anyway, unless one has invented a complex, consistent fantasy universe (like Star Wars) s the main use of tech in scifi is to provide a commentary on our society and ourselves. That's what I missed about the earlier seasons- the tech became reduced to nothing more than cool toys. I really loved eps like Revisions, Memento and Endgame. Blowing up stuff gets old. The magic weapon of the week gets old. Thinking about the impact of tech on humanity never gets old, because that happens in one way or another every day.

Edit: I also wanted to add that Stargate didn't have the money to do tech spectacularly well, either. They could not be a Star Wars. That alone would be reason enough to stick with the tech-as-social-commentary theme, I think.

Thank you! I was trying to figure out a way to say this.

suse

[Petra]

That was just season 1, as you said.

Fine then. Here you go:
Season 2

Ha’tak
Nasya
Air Force Hospital
Hadante – underground prison
Garden
Mine
Moon-like planet
City on Abydos
Washington
Colorado Springs/abandoned advanced city off-world
Desert (The Tok’ra, Matterof Time, Serpent’s song)
Tok’ra tunnels
Indian village
Madrona – idyllic before sudden climate changes
The room with Head Sucker/Othalla
Ma’chello’s planet (draped room with lots of strange machines)
Planet with weird white plants
Rocky desert
Interior of the Pyramid

Season 3

Thor’s ship
Padded room in Mental Hospital
Sealed chamber with dead bodies inside
Archeological dig off-world
School in Colorado Springs
Cargo ship
Military camp
Abydos
Another fairly advanced city (Past and Present)
Netu (hell)
Transformed SGC
Tollana homeworld
Togar’s laboratory
Rogue NID homebase off-world
Bedrosia (rocky mountains)
Buddist temple on Kheb
Mayan Pyramid with Crystal Skull inside

Plus as usual “normal” SGC, Jack’s house, Daniel’s apartment and forests

I can always PM you seasons 4-8, but it's time you backed up your claim that the locations in seasons 9-10 were better. Or, you know, answer my previous questions.

"Ignore" is my friend.

Yeah, but in some instances it's fun to show someone that the show in the first 8 seasons wasn't so monotonous as they think

And anyway, although I never thought of SG-1 having been shot only in the forests, I haven't realised they had so many totally diverse locations.

And now I really have to get back to studying. What does it say about me that I'm listing SG-1 locations instead of doing homework and preparing for my exam?