S10: Critique & Contemplation

[HPMom]

I'm not saying she can't.

Have you ever seen Die Hard 4? Bruce Willis' constant references to beating the crap out of that one lady were really uncomfortable.

It just seems reminiscent of something it shouldn't be to have a female lead beaten a lot.

If you want TV tropes, look at "Unfortunate Implications."

I'm proud to say that I've never seen a Die Hard movie beyond the first one.

But I don't like to see any lead, male or female beaten a lot. Occasionally it's okay if the plot calls for it, but if it's excessive then there's something wrong with the story line.

[KatG]

That reasoning was in response to your reasoning.

This is what I meant much earlier by a "firestorm of complaints."

The position of Jack O'Neill as the leader, was, partially, to get beat up or tortured to save the expense of everyone else. Would you really like to see Sam that way? Do you think she would get her own "thunking" thread? Or would you complain just as much about sexism and abuse?

EDIT: Just look at the response to the first season episode "Emancipation." Nobody seems to have liked it.

I didn't like Emancipation, because I didn't like the storyline overall, not because Sam got whumped.

And as others have said, Sam has a thunk thread. As for whump, there are many, many fanfics where Sam is "whumped" quite badly. Also see "Death Knell", pretty rough stuff there.

And one of the biggest complaints in S9 was in "Off the Grid" rather than showing Sam beaten/tortured, they beamed her out at the last minute.

[Ashizuri]

I think the issue of Sam, or any woman really, having a "whump" thread is something that is split along gender line.

Women, in general, not all, like a beat up man. They want to take care of him and cuddle him and put bandaids on his boo-boos and feed him chicken noodle soup and get him to open up and talk about how getting whumped makes him feel. It's silly to me, but that's how I see.

It's the Hurt/Comfort of the whumping that appeals to people I think, and for the most part, I see that appealing more to women than men.

[Vladius]

i think the issue of sam, or any woman really, having a "whump" thread is something that is split along gender line.

Women, in general, not all, like a beat up man. They want to take care of him and cuddle him and put bandaids on his boo-boos and feed him chicken noodle soup and get him to open up and talk about how getting whumped makes him feel. It's silly to me, but that's how i see.

It's the hurt/comfort of the whumping that appeals to people i think, and for the most part, i see that appealing more to women than men.

tmi.

[mapsc]

Joe Mallozzi was once asked if they would ever do an episode like "Abyss" with Sam the one being tortured. He said no. As I recall, he didn't give a reason. I don't think I would have been bothered by such an episode, although the part with the knives would have been tough to watch.

Mike

[suse]

What I mean is that people were talking about how he was "overshadowing" the other characters, and I just disagree.

I think it's clear in the first episode of Season 9 that SG-1 isn't what it once was. It has diffused, and the different members have become the kind of legendary figures we see in Atlantis. He decided to "get the band back together," just because the originals were the best. If Sam were going to get a command, she would probably have asked for one. I don't think it's insulting that her character is hard to write. She gets more Mary Sue treatment than anyone else.

They are all Mary Sue's in their own way. Though according to Coop they are a 'team of screw-ups".

It wouldn't be as productive to show SG-3 as a subplot for the entire season. At that time SG-1 wasn't the "flagship team" it once was, because the four of them were all solitary.
It was his command nonetheless because people thought he had the leadership capabilities. But then he had to pick people to join. He went through tons of nerds, malcontents, and people he wouldn't be comfortable with in montage.
Then, just because he can, he decides to get the SG-1 veterans because they're the best.
Avalon was supposed to be a minor mission, but he was kind of drafted into their ranks by the time they figured out the Ori were coming.

That bit with "the best the SGC has to offer" (picked by Landry) was offensive. imo.

He apparently can't get the SG-1 vets until circumstances force them back. they ALL said no.

He was drafted into THEIR ranks? Seems to be the other way around, with him as leader...

He did learn from them. You can see sometimes that they just want to scream "Oh, here we go again." If you choose to watch 200 in all seriousness, you can see he's the most out of the loop. He also has subtle nuances to his behavior that indicate that he's learning just what SG-1 does every episode.

I just think everybody is being a little too harsh on the writers. Yes, they needed a male lead, but the way it's portrayed isn't too bad.

Mostly I'm responding to people who say that he should be just a new member, and not the leader. It was his team. You don't get your command usurped by people that you chose to integrate.

Again, *why* was it his team?

What I said was tongue-in-cheek. I'm essentially debating with all women, am I not? Didn't you guys just have some weird outburst at the thought of... something I might not pick up on?

VSS thought she read Cam got Sam in her condition. Written that way it looks like he got her pregnant. Hence the brain bleach.

I
I see: Flowers, mom, Mandy, Jasmin, "Shipper rewatch," compulsive giggling.

No giggling!

surThanks, Kat. I think we are willing to listen to a different point of view, but would hope for a good argument with examples to back it up. We probably won't be convinced , but you never know.

Still awaiting examples.

So anyway...

Cameron Mitchell. Discuss.

Weren't we already discussing him?

Here, I'll repost what I said.

I just think everybody is being a little too harsh on the writers. Yes, they needed a male lead, but the way it's portrayed isn't too bad.

Mostly I'm responding to people who say that he should be just a new member, and not the leader. It was his team. You don't get your command usurped by people that you chose to integrate.

And yet that's how it was written even though he was in charge.

No, they have zero problems with women in a leadership role. Stop seeing sexism where there is none. (Why would Elizabeth Weir and Samantha Carter be in charge of the lost city of Atlantis if that were true?)

It's clear she didn't want a command. There wasn't one to "give away."

Most of the viewers of the show are male, and they need someone to relate to to enjoy the show. It wouldn't be fun for anyone to see Sam or any woman get consistently beaten almost to death, but for an "average" guy like Mitchell it's expected.

I think you guys are looking at it a different way than I am. What I'm examining are the in-universe reasons for his leadership, and what you're examining are the writers' reasons for it.

See my reply below originall post.

Please explain, with examples taken from the show, how his leading improved their team function.

suse

Still awainting your reasoning.

I'm proud to say that I've never seen a Die Hard movie beyond the first one.

But I don't like to see any lead, male or female beaten a lot. Occasionally it's okay if the plot calls for it, but if it's excessive then there's something wrong with the story line.

As for whump, there are many, many fanfics where Sam is "whumped" quite badly. Also see "Death Knell", pretty rough stuff there.

And one of the biggest complaints in S9 was in "Off the Grid" rather than showing Sam beaten/tortured, they beamed her out at the last minute.

Thanks for the on-topic post.
suse

[VSS]

It's the Hurt/Comfort of the whumping that appeals to people I think, and for the most part, I see that appealing more to women than men.

Not me! I don't even like dirt.

[suse]

I think the issue of Sam, or any woman really, having a "whump" thread is something that is split along gender line.

Women, in general, not all, like a beat up man. They want to take care of him and cuddle him and put bandaids on his boo-boos and feed him chicken noodle soup and get him to open up and talk about how getting whumped makes him feel. It's silly to me, but that's how I see.

It's the Hurt/Comfort of the whumping that appeals to people I think, and for the most part, I see that appealing more to women than men.

A certain contingent, yes. But not even sure about the "most".

suse

[Vladius]

It was his team because Landry said it was his team. He got to pick people. He picked the old SG-1, they said no, Vala came through, it aggravated the situation and SG-1 was ordered to reassemble, they go on the mission, they're stuck together with him as commander. Nobody complains.

[Ashizuri]

Not me! I don't even like dirt.

Doesn't appeal to me either. I'd be more likely to tell them to walk it off and try to not lose the fight so badly next time than I would be to baby them.

@ Vladius

We get that. We understand how things went down. We have an issue with the story telling short cuts and lack of explanation for the changes that were made. We understand where you're coming from, we dont agree, but we can understand it. You're not even reading our posts, but can you understand where we are coming from?

[jasminaGo]

Doesn't appeal to me either. I'd be more likely to tell them to walk it off and try to not lose the fight so badly next time than I would be to baby them.

Amen to that

[Vladius]

Doesn't appeal to me either. I'd be more likely to tell them to walk it off and try to not lose the fight so badly next time than I would be to baby them.

@ Vladius

We get that. We understand how things went down. We have an issue with the story telling short cuts and lack of explanation for the changes that were made. We understand where you're coming from, we dont agree, but we can understand it. You're not even reading our posts, but can you understand where we are coming from?

Yes. Yes, yes, and yes. I am reading your posts. Once again, it seems to me like we're on different wavelengths. I want to use in-universe arguments, you want to use out of universe arguments. I see that you have problems with the writers. What I'm trying to say is that it's not as much like a cop-out to have Mitchell as it seems.

I disagree and say that they did good. The 9th and 10th seasons had some of my favorite episodes of the series, and certainly some of the most thought provoking. Cam did some things that Jack didn't, or couldn't. (Partially because Jack was starting to get old.)

[suse]

I'm not saying she can't.

Have you ever seen Die Hard 4? Bruce Willis' constant references to beating the crap out of that one lady were really uncomfortable.

It just seems reminiscent of something it shouldn't be to have a female lead beaten a lot.

Well if the main reason for being for a character is "to get beaten up" I can see why he would need to be assigned a place where he can run foolhardy into danger without disobeying orders.

As was pointed out, they all were all beat up about equally. At least til S9, when Teal'c became whump boy - at least til Mitchell's 'super power' was discovered...

suse

[Crazedwraith]

wow, this thread has suddenly ballooned up over the last day.

Anyway, the big problem i think with Cam was the way they tried instantly catapult him to the big time hero that everyone loves so the team could instantly be the big friendly family we had with the orginal team rather than letting it slowly develop from the actors and the character's shared expereince.

I always thought cam's best scenes were when he was displayed as slighly more insecure and having doubts about his usefulness to the team.

I've said this here before but I think AT's abscence for filming the first few epidose is probably the root cause of the most of the problems people have as it caused the writers to break up SG-1 to write her out for the first episodes.

Come to think of it, if they hadn't brought in Vala, they could have had Mitchell as the eager new recruit and a familar high ranker as temporary leader. (Dixon/Griff/Reynolds hell even Ferretti would be good) but of course then they would have an all male cast which I assume is a bit of PC no-no.

[suse]

Yes. Yes, yes, and yes. I am reading your posts. Once again, it seems to me like we're on different wavelengths. I want to use in-universe arguments, you want to use out of universe arguments. I see that you have problems with the writers. What I'm trying to say is that it's not as much like a cop-out to have Mitchell as it seems.

I disagree and say that they did good. The 9th and 10th seasons had some of my favorite episodes of the series, and certainly some of the most thought provoking. Cam did some things that Jack didn't, or couldn't. (Partially because Jack was starting to get old.)

Please explain to be how "the male is needed to lead because the (mostly male) viewers will be more comfortable watching a male in that position" isn't a writing/out-of-universe argument.

suse