Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Appreciation Thread

[UhSir]

If it had been something he was aware of all along, I think he'd have reacted much faster, but I think it really caught him completely flat footed (chucking his beer all over the patio - comedy gold but also pretty revealing).

Thank you for mentioning the beer. That action plus his frequent, terrified looks to the house absolutely scream out that he feels caught completely off his guard. Which Sam mistakenly interprets as he doesn't feel for her the same way she does for him and, tragically, "confirmed" when Kerry walks out of the house.

[Aveo_amacus]

I actually think Sam is a bit confused by it all, too. As you say, she's not terribly good with this sort of thing. I believe her reservations are real, and the concerns she expresses to Jack are real, too. I also think she's still, at that point, unsure how much of her indecision over Pete and lack of immediate joy and certainty in his proposal is caused by the fact he's not Jack and how much by the fact that she's not certain if her lifestyle will let her have a 'normal' life.

Which, really, may mean our two viewpoints aren't really that far at all. Because while I think Jack does get Sam's trying to find out if there's still a chance for them, I don't think at that point he realizes how completely in love with him she still is or that she can't find happiness with someone else. I don't think - in fact - at that point Sam fully realizes it. So its not surprising Jack doesn't, either. So in a way I think you're correct in that he doesn't really understand how much she loves him. That said, I do think he's intentionally trying to widen the growing gap between them and not let her know how much he himself personally cares in order to help her break away from him. But as you said, and as we see I believe in Threads, just as with Sam, once Jack realizes fully just how much Sam loves and needs him and how Pete can't be for Sam what Jack can be, he does finally go to her and let her know he's always been hers.

About the bolded bit, to me, this is one of the most important things. Becausee I do think if Jack realised that the only way Sam could be happy was to be with him he'd move heaven and earth for her. But, as you say Jenn, he doesn't realise How much she loves him. (and part of that's his fault for withdrawing post entity and desperately *not* focusing on her feelings for him and tryingto persuade himself she's moved on and forgotten him)
I think part of it is that Jack wants Sam to be happy; and with his personal self-worth where it is he thinks she can do better - that she can be happier with someone else. Enter Pete. So, regardless of the fact that he does kinda realise he hasn't moved on from her he convinces himself that she has, and that Pete would be better for her than him anyway so he should back out and 'let her be happy'.
What we see in Threads is that Jack realised how *stupid* his theory really is. In the observation room she thanks him for "Being here for me". And that really is all Sam needs from Jack. For him to put is arm around her and hold her and just *be* there. And Jack realises he can do that.


um yeah

[Rachel-Kree]

*Happy sigh* It was! Can't wait for this year's festivities! Are you planning on writing/making something, then?

maybe some artworks... i write stuff but not in english

Coz I'm the gutter queen, figment of imagination ...does that make sense??

And I can be quiet, I suppose, if you all don't want to hear me talk...

*cries*

*goes sit in quiet corner and watches Grace kiss all by herself*



Well...the answer for that question, will cost you a lot of money, I'm poor you know...I won't give answers so freely



Hmpf, there goes my chance to earn money for giving super smart answers

Yup I'm Starlover1990...they say...but Starlover1990 and I have different personalities...I'm more of a stalker than her

Oh oh, and very happy news for myself I just bought my ticket to the USA this summer...People from the USA, be warned, The gutter Queen is going to invade your country

You're not the only in the invasion i was hoping to tell ya all the news later... but i'll invade the USA summer ... but i'm going to Florida and New york ... while i was in the vacations i went into the list for renew my visa and i was lucky !!! but here will be the winter when the north american summer start ... i'm gonna miss the winter!!! i didn't bought my ticket yet i must wait my calendar of the university arrive to pick a date...



Thanks Jasmina and Pol for the fic recs ...

[JenniferJF]

Thank you for mentioning the beer. That action plus his frequent, terrified looks to the house absolutely scream out that he feels caught completely off his guard. Which Sam mistakenly interprets as he doesn't feel for her the same way she does for him and, tragically, "confirmed" when Kerry walks out of the house.

This is how we can take the same thing and interpret it completely differently. Cause I believe Jack knew what she was going to say - or was at least afraid she was going to say what she was going to say - and so his look of terror was because it was the Worst Possible Moment and he really didn't want to hear it at all because it would require oh-so-much of him (look how unhappy he is at his desk later), and especially not when another woman was about to step out of the house... If he'd had no idea what Sam was getting at, I don't think he'd have been so immediately scared because he wouldn't have known he should be...

What's interesting, too, about that scene is that I think Kerry immediately sees the tossed beer and the burnt meat and suspects what it means... while of course, absorbed in her own fears and doubts, Sam doesn't.

[Solo]

This is how we can take the same thing and interpret it completely differently. Cause I believe Jack knew what she was going to say - or was at least afraid she was going to say what she was going to say - and so his look of terror was because it was the Worst Possible Moment and he really didn't want to hear it at all because it would require oh-so-much of him (look how unhappy he is at his desk later), and especially not when another woman was about to step out of the house... If he'd had no idea what Sam was getting at, I don't think he'd have been so immediately scared because he wouldn't have known he should be...

What's interesting, too, about that scene is that I think Kerry immediately sees the tossed beer and the burnt meat and suspects what it means... while of course, absorbed in her own fears and doubts, Sam doesn't.

Hehe, yup - again, same thing, different interpretation, because I saw him chuck his beer in a hopeless attempt at nonchalance, knowing another woman was about to walk out of his house and break Sam's heart into smithereens. So I think what he's trying to do is stay as casual as possible in the face of overwhelmingly difficult circumstances. I think he realises, finally, what she's trying to say, and it isn't that he doesn't want to hear it, it's just that he knows they can't have the talk here and now because of Kerry's presence, and he's desperate because the last thing he wants to do is hurt either of them, and yet it's inevitable at this point. I think there's also a good dose of guilt - he is finally realising what Sam's trying to say, what she's been trying to say for a while, and he knows she's gonna be absolutely crushed by of Kerry's presence. I think if he'd known how Sam felt, there isn't a chance in hell that he'd have fallen into bed with Kerry - she was his effort at moving on after it seemed Sam was gone for good, not a smokescreen or a cover story. She was a nice girl who he's going to hurt, now, because he didn't realise how Sam felt. Neither Sam nor Jack are the type to have relationships for the sake of having relationships - there's no coincidence that Kerry is the first time we see Jack with a woman since season four - I think he's finally trying to give up on Sam (post-Affinity) and trying to move on.

[starlover]

You're not the only in the invasion i was hoping to tell ya all the news later... but i'll invade the USA summer ... but i'm going to Florida and New york ... while i was in the vacations i went into the list for renew my visa and i was lucky !!! but here will be the winter when the north american summer start ... i'm gonna miss the winter!!! i didn't bought my ticket yet i must wait my calendar of the university arrive to pick a date...

the USA will get a gutter invasion, just kidding.

And that's cool! I want to go to those places as well...in the future...I'm already glad I'm going...

As for the calendar of uni, I got it, but it's possible for me to have exams that last week...I think...but I asked my teachers and they said it was alright...I hope so! Normally speaking(following my other year schedule) it should be vacation already

Thanks Jasmina and Pol for the fic recs ...

What she said!

Now back to learning...sorry for the OT

[JenniferJF]

Hehe, yup - again, same thing, different interpretation, because I saw him chuck his beer in a hopeless attempt at nonchalance, knowing another woman was about to walk out of his house and break Sam's heart into smithereens. So I think what he's trying to do is stay as casual as possible in the face of overwhelmingly difficult circumstances. I think he realises, finally, what she's trying to say, and it isn't that he doesn't want to hear it , it's just that he knows they can't have the talk here and now because of Kerry's presence, and he's desperate because the last thing he wants to do is hurt either of them, and yet it's inevitable at this point. I think there's also a good dose of guilt - he is finally realising what Sam's trying to say, what she's been trying to say for a while, and he knows she's gonna be absolutely crushed by of Kerry's presence. I think if he'd known how Sam felt, there isn't a chance in hell that he'd have fallen into bed with Kerry - she was his effort at moving on after it seemed Sam was gone for good, not a smokescreen or a cover story. She was a nice girl who he's going to hurt, now, because he didn't realise how Sam felt. Neither Sam nor Jack are the type to have relationships for the sake of having relationships - there's no coincidence that Kerry is the first time we see Jack with a woman since season four - I think he's finally trying to give up on Sam (post-Affinity) and trying to move on.

I agree with this completely except for the bolded bit. I think he doesn't want to hear it, because he was hoping she'd be at least happy with Pete, and had at least started to move on, and so he doesn't want to hear that he was wrong - and she was wrong. It's sort of hard to explain. Part of him, of course, needs Sam to love him like he needs oxygen. There is, however, IMHO, a fearful and flawed human part of him that is terrified of the implications of all that and was really hoping she'd move on and be happy and he'd deal with the pain of losing her to another man but be safe from the pain of having her completely and then losing her one day absolutely and in every way to death. Because I don't think he ever wanted to go through that again and a lot of his behavior was instinctive and self-protective because of the pain he'd experienced before. As was Sam's.

That's the part that didn't want to hear Sam needed him, that didn't want to face the implications of that, and that caused the huge heavy sigh at the end of the scene in his office when Kerry 'freed' him from their relationship. If it had just been concern over Kerry, he'd have had far less to be concerned about at that point and I can't see that sigh making sense. It was knowing all that a relationship with Sam entailed, of knowing the risk and the sacrifices he was going to be taking and making, which I think caused that sigh.

I think the most telling moment is his surprise when Sam tells him she thinks she's been making a mistake, and when she tells him she was afraid of speaking to him. I honestly don't think those ideas ever crossed his mind in relation to her. I think he really believed if she'd really been that desperately in love with him and been miserable with Pete she'd have come right out and confronted him with it, and the idea she might have been too afraid shocks him. He's never seen that side of Sam before - can't imagine her scared and uncertain and looking to him for the lead like that - and I think it shifts his entire perspective on the thing and makes him realize that all those times she'd approached him on it she really needed him - and needed him to take the first real step - and wasn't just wondering 'what if' and that he'd been hurting her more by denying her than by accepting her...

Like I said, we're not really that far off I think, it's just a question really of exactly how much Jack knew when and how deliberately was he keeping Sam at arm's length.

[melanell]

Favourite shippy scene? Hmm, tough choice but I would have to say the end of Beneath the Surface, because Jack out right flat out acknowledges to Sam's face - with one little word, spoken with such hopelessness - that he's wishes they had each other.

"Sir"


*sob*

I'm on an angst roll here tonight.

I totally agree. I love that ep, despite (or maybe because of) the angst at the end.

[Solo]

I agree with this completely except for the bolded bit. I think he doesn't want to hear it, because he was hoping she'd be at least happy with Pete, and had at least started to move on, and so he doesn't want to hear that he was wrong - and she was wrong. It's sort of hard to explain. Part of him, of course, needs Sam to love him like he needs oxygen. There is, however, IMHO, a fearful and flawed human part of him that is terrified of the implications of all that and was really hoping she'd move on and be happy and he'd deal with the pain of losing her to another man but be safe from the pain of having her completely and then losing her one day absolutely and in every way to death. Because I don't think he ever wanted to go through that again and a lot of his behavior was instinctive and self-protective because of the pain he'd experienced before. As was Sam's.

That's the part that didn't want to hear Sam needed him, that didn't want to face the implications of that, and that caused the huge heavy sigh at the end of the scene in his office when Kerry 'freed' him from their relationship. If it had just been concern over Kerry, he'd have had far less to be concerned about at that point and I can't see that sigh making sense. It was knowing all that a relationship with Sam entailed, of knowing the risk and the sacrifices he was going to be taking and making, which I think caused that sigh.

I think the most telling moment is his surprise when Sam tells him she thinks she's been making a mistake, and when she tells him she was afraid of speaking to him. I honestly don't think those ideas ever crossed his mind in relation to her. I think he really believed if she'd really been that desperately in love with him and been miserable with Pete she'd have come right out and confronted him with it, and the idea she might have been too afraid shocks him. He's never seen that side of Sam before - can't imagine her scared and uncertain and looking to him for the lead like that - and I think it shifts his entire perspective on the thing and makes him realize that all those times she'd approached him on it she really needed him - and needed him to take the first real step - and wasn't just wondering 'what if' and that he'd been hurting her more by denying her than by accepting her...

Like I said, we're not really that far off I think, it's just a question really of exactly how much Jack knew when and how deliberately was he keeping Sam at arm's length.

See, this is the thing - the Jack you are depicting has a fear of real love and commitment, and the associated risks, and that just doesn't gel with my impressions. And it kinda doesn't gel with the reality, because if he was so fearful of proper love and commitment, I can't imagine him having wound up with Kerry - he just isn't the fly by night, casual relationship type. I don't think he could've wound up in a casual relationship with Kerry any more than Sam could've with Pete - their intentions were genuine. And it was Kerry who dumped him, not vice versa - he clearly felt committed to her, even if it wasn't what he really wanted. So if he's afraid of relationships and love, I don't see him being there with her. I see him on his own.

[Luvnjoe]

See, this is the thing - the Jack you are depicting has a fear of real love and commitment, and the associated risks, and that just doesn't gel with my impressions. And it kinda doesn't gel with the reality, because if he was so fearful of proper love and commitment, I can't imagine him having wound up with Kerry - he just isn't the fly by night, casual relationship type. I don't think he could've wound up in a casual relationship with Kerry any more than Sam could've with Pete - their intentions were genuine. And it was Kerry who dumped him, not vice versa - he clearly felt committed to her, even if it wasn't what he really wanted. So if he's afraid of relationships and love, I don't see him being there with her. I see him on his own.

I think what Jenn is saying is that (in her opinion...and mine too, I think) Jack is not afraid of love and commitment in general, but of loving and committing to Sam, in particular. This is a huge risk emotionally, besides career-wise. Unlike a "normal" relationship, where he was taking all the physical, life-endangering risks--which he can handle, no problem--he finds himself faced with a relationship where it is the one he loves to is continually throwing herself in harm's way. That's a big step forward, to accept that. And, he's had his fair share of heart-wrenching close calls in that respect, so imagine his anxiety of really throwing himself 110% into a relationship....

I dunno. Did that make any sense? I should know better than to try to make sense and post Deep Thoughts.

[Solo]

I think what Jenn is saying is that (in her opinion...and mine too, I think) Jack is not afraid of love and commitment in general, but of loving and committing to Sam, in particular. This is a huge risk emotionally, besides career-wise. Unlike a "normal" relationship, where he was taking all the physical, life-endangering risks--which he can handle, no problem--he finds himself faced with a relationship where it is the one he loves to is continually throwing herself in harms way. That's a big step forward, to accept that. And, he's had his fair share of heart-wrenching close calls, so imagine his anxiety of really throwing himself 110% into a relationship....

I dunno. Did that make any sense? I should know better than to try to make sense and post Deep Thoughts.

Except... Kerry Kohnson is CIA - that's hardly safe and boring. She's got enough clearance to know about the Stargate programme - chances are she's out there putting herself on the line from time to time as well.

And then you have that little line from pseudo-Jack in Grace, where he says he would never ask Sam to give this up. She's great at her job. And there are risks in everything. I don't for an instant think he's worried about getting involved with her because she might die - for a start, he's realised quite recently that he's gonna lose her anyway, even if she's alive, and that's no better.

And for all the respect he has for the Air Force, and as much as he loves his job - he made it quite clear in Affinity that he wouldn't be there if things were different. She is much more important to him than his job. So it's not just the whole "Air Force regs" making this as big a step professionally as it is personally. He'd give up the job in a heartbeat for her.

The sigh in Threads - I think that's just about realisation dawning and him achieving his own moment of grace, rather than resignation or anything negative.

Don't forget - it was never Jack who "shut things down" in the first place. It was Sam. I think if they'd been honest with each other back then, he'd have been happily retired and letting her go off and fight her battles by the end of the week. He never seemed to show any indication that he was worried then by her job, except the fact that her chain of command happened to make things difficult.

[JenniferJF]

And it kinda doesn't gel with the reality, because if he was so fearful of proper love and commitment, I can't imagine him having wound up with Kerry - he just isn't the fly by night, casual relationship type.

Oh, he's not. It's not simply fear of love and commitment. It's fear of the likelihood of having to turn around and leave the person you love behind a forcefield to die and having to live every day of your life knowing you did that. It's fear of having to look in her eyes and kill her because it's your job and it's the right thing to do. It's fear of sending her through that 'gate and knowing she might never come back... of making the wrong decision and getting her killed - or making the wrong decision because you're afraid of getting her killed. It's all those things which make Sam and Jack's relationship unique. While I don't think it was ever 'the regs' alone keeping Sam and Jack apart, I've always believed Jack firmly believed the regs were right and that was part of what kept them apart. It was dangerous and wrong for him to have a relationship with Sam. When he meant he cared about her more than he was supposed to, he meant it. It just wasn't wrong because it was a rule written on a piece of paper, but because he really understood why it was wrong.

He had to come to grips with all this, to realize as I said that there were worse ways of losing her than any of that, and also to finally realize the simple truth that, given the change in Earth's situation and their own professional situations all those problems no longer needed to apply, and that final willingness to rearrange his life for her (which I tend to think, judging from his conversation with Landry in Avalon was the easy part), they could be together without giving up everything else.

And that's really what makes Sam and Jack's relationship unique. It's not simply too people with hard painful pasts. It's two people with hard painful pasts caught in a situation they can't escape from which, combined, make it nearly impossible for them to work things out and be together. Until Threads when the situation finally changed at the same time they realized no pain could be worse than the pain they were already feeling and so they... well.. went fishing

EDIT: Or, while I was typing, what LuvnJack said. Cause I disagree that Kerry could ever - in Jack's mind - be in the same place as Sam was danger-wise. Or that Jack could ever imagine himself being the one standing there watching or even causing her to die... The CIA is -generally - a bunch of paper pushers, regardles of what one sees on TV.

[JenniferJF]

And then you have that little line from pseudo-Jack in Grace, where he says he would never ask Sam to give this up. She's great at her job. And there are risks in everything. I don't for an instant think he's worried about getting involved with her because she might die - for a start, he's realised quite recently that he's gonna lose her anyway, even if she's alive, and that's no better.

I think he is absolutely afraid of that. Not just her dying, but I think the lessons of D&C and Entity were exactly that Sam could die horribly and Jack would be there watching and causing it and thus they really drove home to him why the regs existed and why he shouldn't get involved with her and that's exactly why after Entity Jack backed off.

And for all the respect he has for the Air Force, and as much as he loves his job - he made it quite clear in Affinity that he wouldn't be there if things were different. She is much more important to him than his job. So it's not just the whole "Air Force regs" making this as big a step professionally as it is personally. He'd give up the job in a heartbeat for her.

He would.. and I think he did as soon as he realized how much she needed him - and he needed her. But I really think a sort of 'cricial mass' had to be achieved in which they sort of got a taste of how terrible it would really be without each other, which was what happened throughout S8, to make them realize it wasn't professional separation which would destroy them, but personal.

Don't forget - it was never Jack who "shut things down" in the first place. It was Sam. I think if they'd been honest with each other back then, he'd have been happily retired and letting her go off and fight her battles by the end of the week. He never seemed to show any indication that he was worried then by her job, except the fact that her chain of command happened to make things difficult.

Only in D&C Jack looked relieved Sam shut it down, and I do think it was him doing it constantly anytime she broached the subject again from post-Entity to Threads. Because she did try several times (Lost City for example) and each time he avoided the subject and deflected, making me think by then it was him and not her who was avoiding.

Though, you know, I do agree with the bolded bits If he'd known and understood she was just as afraid as he was, and was waiting for him to make the first move, I think he would have said, "No, we're not going to leave this in the room, we're going to talk about it.." But, of course, he didn't and she didn't and we had all those years of angst afterwards because of it.

[UhSir]

Hehe, yup - again, same thing, different interpretation, because I saw him chuck his beer in a hopeless attempt at nonchalance, knowing another woman was about to walk out of his house and break Sam's heart into smithereens. So I think what he's trying to do is stay as casual as possible in the face of overwhelmingly difficult circumstances. I think he realises, finally, what she's trying to say, and it isn't that he doesn't want to hear it, it's just that he knows they can't have the talk here and now because of Kerry's presence, and he's desperate because the last thing he wants to do is hurt either of them, and yet it's inevitable at this point. I think there's also a good dose of guilt - he is finally realising what Sam's trying to say, what she's been trying to say for a while, and he knows she's gonna be absolutely crushed by of Kerry's presence. I think if he'd known how Sam felt, there isn't a chance in hell that he'd have fallen into bed with Kerry - she was his effort at moving on after it seemed Sam was gone for good, not a smokescreen or a cover story. She was a nice girl who he's going to hurt, now, because he didn't realise how Sam felt. Neither Sam nor Jack are the type to have relationships for the sake of having relationships - there's no coincidence that Kerry is the first time we see Jack with a woman since season four - I think he's finally trying to give up on Sam (post-Affinity) and trying to move on.

Exactly what I've tried to say oh so many time but have always failed.

[trinity3]

Coz I'm the gutter queen, figment of imagination ...does that make sense??

And I can be quiet, I suppose, if you all don't want to hear me talk...

*cries*

*goes sit in quiet corner and watches Grace kiss all by herself*

Nah. I have too much fun talking with you. The gutter just wouldn't be the same.

**pulls Starlover out of the corner and back into the gutter**

**splashes around**

Far far away... I'll arrive in Washington DC, but B will pick me up and I'm gonna discover the wonders of Virginia...

So you don't have to worry...

Not Kansas, Dorothy?


Wow. You guys are having some really deep discussions.

**Sits in the balcony with the hushed crowd watching the ongoing debate* *