Sam Carter /Jack O'Neill Ship Appreciation Thread 2.0

[Sparky She-Demon]

I don't think it particularly matters, especially if they're close in age.

Fair enough.

[Kimberley Jackson]

It seems to me that Sam is plagued by men who want to control her. That's to be expected though because she is a very brilliant and capable woman, and that can still be a big problem for a lot of men.

1. There's the obvious one, Jonas, who we find out about early in the show and it seems she broke it off with him because of his control issues.
   
   
2. Then there's her Dad because, let's face it, when we meet him in Secrets he is not a nice guy:
   
   • He puts her name forward for the NASA programme without asking her
   • He supposes to tell her about what her own dreams are even though they obviously haven't been in contact for a while
   • When she tells him that what she's doing at the moment is very important to her, he asks her to do it for him, and it's obvious from Sam's reply, "I knew sooner or later you'd make this about you." that this is a pattern of behaviour for him which makes you think about what else he's asked her to do for him - like, maybe, be an astronaut? Join the military?
   • Then he reveals that he has cancer and makes her feel guilty by dismissing her
   
   She also makes that comment in an episode (which I cannot remember at the moment) that her father wanted a son, but we know he does have a son, so what did she really mean by that comment? My take on it would be that he wanted a son who would follow in his footsteps, but he didn't get that. So Sam, the dutiful daughter, tried her best to make up for that by joining the Air Force. It's just not what Jacob really wanted.
   
   
3. Then we have Pete, who seems set on making decisions on her behalf because he THINKS he knows what she wants. Just because someone says, "Oh, I'd like xyz someday.", it doesn't mean they want that now. Personally, I would go WAAACCCKKKOOOO if my husband bought a house without consulting me.

So, all of this makes me appreciate Sam's absolute devotion to her work at the SGC because it seems like the one big thing that she's chosen for herself and makes me understand why she chooses to not compromise that for a man (even though that man is Jack ).

That is actually an interesting point. Sam does seem to have a hang for men who are controlly - or at least in command. Which isn't surprising if you take psychology into account, and consider the way Jacob is presented to us. Jacob was in the army - made it all the way up to general (? correct me if I'm wrong). Fathers who are in the army tend to lead a more army-style household at home as well - and it is certainly hinted on that Jacob did. He was strict, and controlly as well. The father is the first man in the life of a girl/woman, and the saying that girls later on always pick men like their father is actually true.

AND if you then follow that logic it is not at all surprising that she falls for Jack - and not Daniel with whom she actually has a lot more in common. Let's face it, Sam has a thing for controlly guys and to an extent even Jack represents just that - he is her commanding officer after all.

Think about it: when it comes to character, Sam does have a lot more in common with Daniel:
- they're both scientists
- they can relate to each other's perspectives
- they have often similar views when it comes to issues that arise

Jack is completely the opposite of Sam - but the main thing is, Jack is also a guy who is in control at least in their working relationship - and that is the only relationship they have on screen. Certainly, Jack is not being violent (like J. Hanson) or borderline psychopathic (like Pete - or Orlin; seriously, that dude was creepy!), but he is a very strong man - the difference was: I don't think Jack wants to control. Control with him arose out of the need of regulations due to the command structure.

However, we can see that to a certain extent, Sam depends on his control - this goes back to her passiveness that we were talking about before. She needs Jack to tell her to not marry Pete. But he doesn't do that, because he knows, it's not going to work that way.

Sam needs control on the one hand, but on the other hand she is a very independent woman - so at some point that independence in her will conflict with the need to be controlled by a man. Which might be why she broke up with Jonas Hanson (he controlled her too much) and also why she got second thoughts with Pete.

Jack does not tell her to break it off, because he doesn't want that control over her - he's certainly not submissive either, but a really strong personality, and he needs a partner who is equally strong. So finally, in Threads, it is Sam who takes control! She goes to his house and talks to him and thereby takes control.

If you watch that scene closely, you can actually see his face change as she keeps talking - you can see that he's becoming completely astonished as she speaks (interpretation - so sue me... hehe). And I think it was that point where their relationship had an actual chance at working in his eyes - when she broke that pattern of seeking control; and stopped being passive.

[Amara D'Angeli]

But isn't it usually an older brother that sets up his sister? Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm an only child.

My brother's younger but now that we're both older (and he's married), if he meets a guy he thinks would suit me, he'll talk him up to me. Ultimately, the dating is my decision.

[neverendingimagination]

I also watched the video and think that the question implies the relationship to be romantic, why else ask it in that way?

I also agree with Kimberley that they are VERY different characters. Helen is 150+ years old, I'm sure in one lifetime or another she's experimented. But from everything we know about Sam, that would be way OOC for her much in the same way I think that Sam/Janet slash is way OOC! Plus, I have a hard time wrapping my brain around putting the two characters (Sam and Helen) into the same setting. I personally don't think that Sam and Helen would be friends, let alone anything else. I'm just sayin'

I got the impression it was referring to romantic relationships too. I remember a woman talking about loving Sam and then finding her first girlfriend, I don't know if it was the same person that asked the question.

A situation where Helen and Sam had to work together could be very interesting because it go in many directions. I don't think they would be friends, although they have some similar personality traits. Neither of them are willing to compromise with their work or settle for anything less than perfection, their work is their life and neither would dream of giving it up. They are very open minded about what is possible, both having seen fantastical creatures and technologies. Their loved ones are very dear to them and they protect them at their own personal cost. Neither will give up on a family member, that others think has gone.

Helen is opinionated, and not afraid to speak her mind, or twist a situation to her advantage. She works outside the rules as and when it is necessary, and puts the safety of her people and her creatures before the law. Helen, obviously, has worked with Tesla, but I think she would be on the defensive with another physicist and highly suspicious. It takes a lot for Helen to trust - let alone allow herself to care beyond a professional level. She's lost too much before and remains detached.

Sam, from her military training, keeps her tongue - for the most part - and follows orders. She wouldn't dream of going against regulations or the rules - although she can be persuaded to bend the rules if the situation is dire enough (SG1 Season 1 finale). I think Sam is more open to give and take with projects, having worked well with McKay before. Sam is very attached to her family (Inc SG1) but remains detached from others, be it her rank, intelligence or other reasons.

Once the pair work past the initial friction they could work well together, or it could go the opposite way, and end up with the most awkward of working environments. If anything I think it would be a McKay/Carter type relationship, tolerating each other for progress's sake, and each secretly wanting to kill the other.

In terms of a 'universe' with both of them existing. I'm pretty sure Helen would have examined the Roswel Grays, and Tesla would have detected all the battles and ships in orbit. Not to mention he'd have wanted to get his hands on the Ancient Weapons platform. Helen would be all over the nanites and other biological samples brought back through the gate. It would be possible to create a scenario where the Sanctuary Network and Nikola Tessla were hired as private contractors working with scientific teams at Area 51. We know that the Stargate Program hired such contractors from the Series 9 episode, where the English CEO tries to blow the whistle on the program.

Anyway, moving back on to the ship...

I realised I haven't posted any SGP recently. Here's the last one I've got completed at the moment.

[Samantha-Carter-is-my-muse]

Love the SGP Nox, nei

pic spam

[Samantha-Carter-is-my-muse]

[Samantha-Carter-is-my-muse]

[Samantha-Carter-is-my-muse]

[Samantha-Carter-is-my-muse]

[Samantha-Carter-is-my-muse]

[Samantha-Carter-is-my-muse]

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[AmberLM]

Love the SGP Nox, nei

pic spam

[IMG]http://www.an-c.dk/at/gateworld/continuum-jack-is-bored.jpg[IMG]

If that's not an annoyed wife/guilty husband look, I don't know what is!

[BrenRen]

Love the SGP Nox, nei

pic spam

: Moonbase? Really?
: Everyone knows about the sidearms, the sixes,and especially fishing... we're running out of euphemisms!
: Moonbase... Yeah, I guess I can work with that one.

[fems]

That is actually an interesting point. Sam does seem to have a hang for men who are controlly - or at least in command. Which isn't surprising if you take psychology into account, and consider the way Jacob is presented to us. Jacob was in the army - made it all the way up to general (? correct me if I'm wrong). Fathers who are in the army tend to lead a more army-style household at home as well - and it is certainly hinted on that Jacob did. He was strict, and controlly as well. The father is the first man in the life of a girl/woman, and the saying that girls later on always pick men like their father is actually true.

AND if you then follow that logic it is not at all surprising that she falls for Jack - and not Daniel with whom she actually has a lot more in common. Let's face it, Sam has a thing for controlly guys and to an extent even Jack represents just that - he is her commanding officer after all.

Think about it: when it comes to character, Sam does have a lot more in common with Daniel:
- they're both scientists
- they can relate to each other's perspectives
- they have often similar views when it comes to issues that arise

Jack is completely the opposite of Sam - but the main thing is, Jack is also a guy who is in control at least in their working relationship - and that is the only relationship they have on screen. Certainly, Jack is not being violent (like J. Hanson) or borderline psychopathic (like Pete - or Orlin; seriously, that dude was creepy!), but he is a very strong man - the difference was: I don't think Jack wants to control. Control with him arose out of the need of regulations due to the command structure.

However, we can see that to a certain extent, Sam depends on his control - this goes back to her passiveness that we were talking about before. She needs Jack to tell her to not marry Pete. But he doesn't do that, because he knows, it's not going to work that way.

Sam needs control on the one hand, but on the other hand she is a very independent woman - so at some point that independence in her will conflict with the need to be controlled by a man. Which might be why she broke up with Jonas Hanson (he controlled her too much) and also why she got second thoughts with Pete.

Jack does not tell her to break it off, because he doesn't want that control over her - he's certainly not submissive either, but a really strong personality, and he needs a partner who is equally strong. So finally, in Threads, it is Sam who takes control! She goes to his house and talks to him and thereby takes control.

If you watch that scene closely, you can actually see his face change as she keeps talking - you can see that he's becoming completely astonished as she speaks (interpretation - so sue me... hehe). And I think it was that point where their relationship had an actual chance at working in his eyes - when she broke that pattern of seeking control; and stopped being passive.

Sorry, I've got to disagree with you again. Sam isn't into controlling men per se, just the lunatic fringe - something she's well aware of. So yeah, she's got bad taste in men in general but there have been moments where she showed some kind of interest in other types of men (Narim, Martouf, Joe Faxon come to mind) too, no matter how short-lived.

She just seems to like alpha males if you go by Jonas H and Jack (Pete doesn't qualify as even a beta male) but more importantly she appears to go for older, more experienced (and often damaged) men, most likely due to her intelligence. There can't be many men of her age who understand her or care about her intelligence/knowledge and most of her peers (or younger guys) probably wouldn't hold her interest very long either.

Hanson was older but not a superior officer unless they got together when she was still in or barely out of the Academy and he was already a captain, which is unlikely considering his age and I doubt he already had many black marks on his record at that time (which would hold him back for promotions) considering he was accepted into the SGC (they really ought to up their standards, though). Not to mention that Sam was still in her early to mid twenties at the time of her relationship with him, if we go by the 1968 DoB as prop canon indicated in Entity, so she probably wasn't that experienced when it came to matters of the heart. Granted, this is pure speculation on my part but Jacob seemed to have been a rather controlling father and Sam was probably precocious if not downright a prodigy, so she probably didn't do much dating while in high school and from there on she went straight to the Academy. Being a general's daughter and a woman she had to be careful with how she behaved in the Academy because the military is still a man's world and reputation is very important, which probably translated in her not dating much if at all during those years either, too careful of not getting a reputation and too into science and all the other accomplishments she's famed for at the Academy.

Narim was an alien she at the very least found interesting (not sure about mutual attraction because she was under the influence of alien technology when he kissed her), either because he was older (although we don't know his age, he looks older) or because of his knowledge on physics and other Tollan stuff. He wasn't at all controlling and seemed very soft-hearted to put it nicely and totally lacking of any passion whatsoever.

Martouf doesn't really count, although he's probably older and wiser due to Lantash, but her feelings for him are clouded by Jolinar and he creeps me out. Still, he wasn't really the controlling kind.

Joe Faxon wasn't controlling in the way you described, yet he did have some misguided inclination to protect Sam from knowing about the Aschen's treaty and wanting to keep her safe during the mission in 2010. We didn't really get to know him in 2001 but Sam was interested and he at the very least seemed intelligent, someone who would be able to hold her interest even if his area of expertise is completely unrelated to her own.

Orlin is a freaking alien stalker creep and probably used his mind sex to influence her, so he doesn't count either! No, but seriously, he too is far more knowledgeable than her peers and that makes him interesting to her.

Jack is a very handsome man and there were sparks flying the moment they met, so I doubt it was all due to Sam being submissive to his command position. She simply thought he was hot, like plenty of us do. Also, Jack might be her commanding officer and a superior officer but he in no way controlled or manipulated her, other than giving her orders in the field. He was, on the other hand, a bit older, emotionally damaged and had seen and done a lot in his life even before meeting her. He might not be on the same wavelength intellectually (although he's certainly intelligent because otherwise he never would have made it to full bird, let alone general officer) and not always understand what she's saying, but he gets her. And, perhaps more importantly, he respects her and admires her intelligence. I really can't think of any moment where he tried to control or manipulate her other than when they were in the field and he had to make command decisions.

I also don't think he's the complete opposite of Sam; they both are career military and love the Air Force, so they already have that in common. Jack is interested in astronomy and Sam is certainly knowledgeable in that area as well. They're both pilots (regardless of the costume department's oversight in not giving them wings) and presumably love flying and to become a pilot one must know about physics and engineering and whatnot. Jack clearly knows a lot more than he lets on and has 'slipped up' several times when he offers a "dumb" solution which means he totally understood at least the concept of what Sam was talking about, like when he suggests the Ben Franklin thing in Torment of Tantalus. They both love blowing stuff up, are excellent marksmen and probably enjoy various types of exercise as well as they both need to be in shape for their fitness tests. I've never gotten the impression that Sam hates being outdoors (she's only ever complained about sandy planets) and we all know how much Jack loves his cabin, so they're probably both the outdoorsy types, although Jack may be a bit more than Sam. Oh and they both love motor cycles! So I can see them going on road trips or being adrenaline junkies together.

So, I'm pretty sure that's more than Sam has in common with Daniel...

Anyway, to get back to the control part: I don't think Sam is an independent woman who needs a man to control her. That totally diminishes her character! She's a strong and independent woman who can make up her own mind, but isn't perfect in every aspect of life as evidenced by her suck-y love life. And thank god for that, or she'd be a total Mary Sue! I like the fact that she isn't good at everything she sets her mind to and that she makes mistakes, especially when it comes to love.

As a strong woman Sam needs a man who can 'handle' her, someone who is equally strong and independent while simultaneously being able be there for her when she does need to rely on him. Daniel could never be that guy despite both of them being very intelligent (pshaw, that's no reason to get together) but Jack is a strong alpha male type of guy who can. Jack knows her through and through and he's able to temper (?) her as well as encourage her. He also seems to know how to push her, make her strive for greatness and be a better person/officer, while at the same time being able to calm her down and make her relax and enjoy life.

Jack and Sam totally complement each other because of their personalities and interactions, not because he is a control freak and make her be submissive to his will.

I also think the moment in Threads is simply Jack hearing her out (a bit freaked she's visiting him at his house, on her own) and slowly realizing where she's going with her little speech and then realizing his girlfriend can join them at any second making the whole situation awkward and beyond uncomfortable.

[hedwig]

I really think he was just surprised to hear her saying his name

I initially thought that too, but I re-watched Grace recently and I did not get the same impression on the re-watch. His tone was actually just surprised (it was a lot softer than I had remembered). They made it clear that he was tired and had been sitting there for a long time waiting for her wake up and the first thing she does is call him 'Jack'. He kind of swallows like he hasn't spoken for a while before he speaks and then he immediately moves towards her and makes light of her having a head injury. His tone through the whole thing was a lot softer than I remembered actually.

I'm in agreement with both of these. I've always thought he just sounded surprised (and probably liked hearing his name).

That is actually an interesting point. Sam does seem to have a hang for men who are controlly - or at least in command. Which isn't surprising if you take psychology into account, and consider the way Jacob is presented to us. Jacob was in the army - made it all the way up to general (? correct me if I'm wrong). Fathers who are in the army tend to lead a more army-style household at home as well - and it is certainly hinted on that Jacob did. He was strict, and controlly as well. The father is the first man in the life of a girl/woman, and the saying that girls later on always pick men like their father is actually true.

Jacob was in the Air Force.