Sam Carter /Jack O'Neill Ship Appreciation Thread 2.0

[Skydiver]

in 'reality', SG1 woulda been broken up after a couple of years to spread out that knowledge. teams are routinely broken up, even if you take out any romantic relationships, there's simply a danger from close friendships developing that can endanger a team

[IggyMing]

I've always thought of the regs as being deliberatly vague. they have enough oomph and backbone to punish those that misbehave, yet enough leeway to 'ignore' those that don't.

in the case above, i think the larger issue was adultry.

if jack and sam chose to be together and proved that they could behave, the solution would be as simple as her being a research officer, under jack's command, but reporting to hammond on a daily basis, thus hammond would do her evaluations, with full knowledge that any word from jack was suspect due to their personal relationship

if the writers had wanted to make it work, they could have. but it was a good excuse.

I do like now that they're out of the chain of command that's when they took things a step further. i like them being above board and 'honorable' with it. rather than falling for the whole 'instant gratification, give it to me now' attitude that many have

Yes, the whole adultery aspect does give it a different angle, but I don't think it was the primary factor for the charges. In a recent case, a Canadian Colonel (highest ranking officer on a foreign mission) was recalled, due to an inappropriate relationship (but not with a subordinate). The facts of the case haven't been clarified yet, but it is implied that the regs were broken. There was no adultery involved, as far as I can tell. Source:

Spoiler:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle1635113/

The bolded part -- I totally agree!

(Just a note: Based on these two cases, it probably sounds like the Cdn military is led by a bunch of yahoos, but really they're not... most are really professional. Many years ago, I used worked with them as a civilian.)

[Nynaeve506]

Regs:

I know Seahen, Pol, and others have posted the regs and spoken from their own personal understanding of the military (as they have served). I'm speaking second hand (my father is a retired officer).

The regs are taken very seriously. That said, an affair will not end up at a court-martial - first there would be receive a warning from the commanding officer to cease and desist the unprofessional relationship, there could be a written reprimand and reassignment. It would only be brought up as an additional charge in a court-martial but not as the primary charge.

Furthermore, the regs have to be taken incredibly seriously. Jack wasn't exaggerating in that one episode with the Russians that a clear chain of command must exist. One of the things I appreciate about Stargate is that it captures the nuance of military thinking. It's the military, not civilian life. This isn't like having an inter-office affair with the boss. This is about unit cohesiveness, command decisions, chain of command, and the ability of a commander to order their subordinate into potentially fatal situations if necessary.

/soap box.

SGU

Spoiler:

I think TJ/Young is a warning against what Sam/Jack would have become had they broken the regs. Upon first glance it may appear from my sig that I ship them - I don't. I don't think there can be a happy ending for them. The quote I selected was meant to be a somber quote - that they got themselves into a mess that would have been better if it had never happened.

Phones OT:

Spoiler:

Really? They must be somewhere that has stronger A T & T coverage than middle Tennessee. Folks here who have I-Phones (and A T & T) love them...if they're in city limits. Get out on the interstate, or away from a large town...and there's no coverage.

I've been Verizon ever since I got my very first cell phone. I'm not crazy about my Blackberry...but I hear Verizon will get the I-Phone next January...just before my current contract runs out. So...it'll be an I-Phone or a Droid for me next.

Just sayin'.

Phones

Spoiler:

Arkansas was primarily AT&T back about ten years ago when I first got started with Cingular. I really haven't ever had any trouble with coverage - but like I mentioned before, all cell companies have holes in their coverage, it just depends where you are. I get my iPhone tomorrow!

[IggyMing]

...I'm inclined to think that the consequences for Sam and Jack would merely have been to split them up and put them on separate teams (as many would argue should have happened anyway, since it's quite obvious that the closeness between them...between all of SG-1, in fact--meaning that it's not simply a "ship" issue but a "friend-ship" matter as well...could have been seen as compromising their decision-making capability). Which would have, then, allowed them to pursue their relationship without any further problem.

But I'm sure those people on the thread who have been in the military *cough*Jenn*cough* can speak to this much better than I.

Of course, regulations really were the *least* of the issues separating Sam and Jack for all those years. But that's an entirely different discussion.

Edit: I might add (spoilered for SGU):

Spoiler:

that it will be interesting to see what consequences come from Young's affair with TJ. That situation is much more like the one in Canada, with adultery involved. Obviously, under the circumstances there isn't anything that can be done about it at the moment. But I will be curious to see if/how it's addressed later on.

I agree that they would probably have been split up in RL. Obviously, they couldn't do this on the show without compromising it (no more SG1 with Sam and Jack on the same team).

Bolded part -- I agree. But, the regs made for a good excuse, didn't they?

SGU:

Spoiler:

It will be interesting to see how this gets addressed in season 2.

[IggyMing]

It must have been important, because it was one rule or regulation Jack wouldn't break. It would have been bad for Sam.

Yes, bad for both, but for different reasons.
For Sam -- the implications that she slept her way to the top, however unfair this may be.
For Jack -- the implications that he took advantage of a subordinate.

[IggyMing]

SGU

Spoiler:

I think TJ/Young is a warning against what Sam/Jack would have become had they broken the regs. Upon first glance it may appear from my sig that I ship them - I don't. I don't think there can be a happy ending for them. The quote I selected was meant to be a somber quote - that they got themselves into a mess that would have been better if it had never happened.

SGU

Spoiler:

You may very well be right about this. At the same time, we haven't been given much of a backstory regarding TJ/Young's relationship. Is it possible that they were in a relationship before he became her CO, or did I miss an episode stating that they did indeed violate the regs while in the same CoC? If the former, then I am guessing that the regs wouldn't apply in their case?

[Nynaeve506]

I agree that they would probably have been split up in RL. Obviously, they couldn't do this on the show without compromising it (no more SG1 with Sam and Jack on the same team).

Bolded part -- I agree. But, the regs made for a good excuse, didn't they?

SGU:

Spoiler:

It will be interesting to see how this gets addressed in season 2.

I think it was Jenn that said it first, but I agree with her (surprise, surprise).

The truth is, if they had wanted to at any point, one or the other could have found a way to make it work without breaking the regs. It's been discussed before, but they were already breaking the regs 'in spirit' so to speak. They had inappropriate feelings for each other and Hammond should have addressed it early on, but you know, then we wouldn't have had a show LOL.

Realistically Jack was getting to the point of a desk job anyway. (I'm pulling this from what my father's told me - yes I quiz him on this stuff LOL) AF teams tend to be led by Majors and Lt. Colonels. Colonels tend to fly the desk - they're experience and their knowledge makes them both better at training the younger generation at home as well as keeping them out of enemy hands. Removing him from being Hammond's second (is that ever actually established in canon? I suppose the way Hammond allows Jack to do most of the hands on stuff would seem to indicate it - I want to say that it would make him a D.O. because that term sounds vaguely familiar for when my dad was second in his squadron).

Sam also could have chosen to resign her commission and worked as a civilian or, once become a Major, would have been able to lead her own team. As long as Jack wasn't her commander (see above) they might have been able to pursue a discreet relationship.

So. Yes. It was an excuse. Both Jack and Sam suffered from a lot of insecurities and fears. Jack closed off after Charlie died and once he realizes how deeply it would hurt him to lose Carter, he hides behind his humor and the regs to keep her at arm's length. Sam on the other hand struggles with balancing herself as a soldier and woman. She holds herself back in a lot of ways to be who she thinks her father or whomever thinks she should be. Unspoken expectations shape her. It's why it doesn't surprise me she ended up with a control freak like Jonas or why she picks really, really wrong men in general. She picks men that try to shape her instead of letting her simply be, something Jack actually does.

They both made choices and they both made excuses.

[Nynaeve506]

SGU

Spoiler:

You may very well be right about this. At the same time, we haven't been given much of a backstory regarding TJ/Young's relationship. Is it possible that they were in a relationship before he became her CO, or did I miss an episode stating that they did indeed violate the regs while in the same CoC? If the former, then I am guessing that the regs wouldn't apply in their case?

SGU OT

Spoiler:

Young was married at the very least so they were breaking regs from the get-go. It's been implied that they met on Icarus while she was under his command and the fact that she's a Lieutenant... well it's very likely that this was her first real big assignment so they most likely didn't know each other prior to then. I wrote a fic "Running from the Devil" which uses my own speculation and interpretation as they've given it to us to guess as to what happened before . It's M so I can't link to it, but my fanfic link is in my sig.

Even had they carried on a relationship prior to being in the same chain of command to have continued and not disclosed that relationship would still be in violation. So really no way around it for them

[IggyMing]

SGU OT

Spoiler:

Young was married at the very least so they were breaking regs from the get-go. It's been implied that they met on Icarus while she was under his command and the fact that she's a Lieutenant... well it's very likely that this was her first real big assignment so they most likely didn't know each other prior to then. I wrote a fic "Running from the Devil" which uses my own speculation and interpretation as they've given it to us to guess as to what happened before . It's M so I can't link to it, but my fanfic link is in my sig.

Even had they carried on a relationship prior to being in the same chain of command to have continued and not disclosed that relationship would still be in violation. So really no way around it for them

Spoiler:

You're right... I forgot that the adultery aspect alone is a violation of the regs, never mind the CoC. And the lack of disclosure -- yup, that was just the nail in the coffin.

[Seahen]

Okay, I'm using the Navy way of thinking because you used the term "flagship." This is the ship that the battle squadron's admiral is on. He/she would be in charge of the squadron, but not of that ship. The flagship would still have its own captain. The squadron is made up of various types of ships. The admiral could pick any ship to be his/her flagship, but usually they do pick one that has special quarters built into it, but he doesn't have to. I don't know how this would apply to the SG universe--do they send out someone who is in charge of the "group", not just the commander of their ship? Or would one particular ship be in charge of the group? I think I've just talked myself into confusion.

I don't know why but this made me grin. Jack's next job: Fleet commander. Hammond as his flagship. Sam would be the Captain. They'd each have their own bridge. It'd be cute!

[Seahen]

Sorry for the double post:

Would they have been Court Martialed for breaking the regs? It depends. I think it would depend on what happened that they were found out. Was a mission screwed up because of it or did someone just find out? How many people know? Because of Jack's high rank, it's possible that they might want to make an example of him. If something bad came out of it (blotched mission, someone injured or killed) then probably. If it happened fairly quietly, they might want to sweep it under the rug, and keep the punishment fairly quiet. Jack could opt for nonjudicial punishment (Article 15-punished and goes in record, but is not a criminal conviction). Punishment could include transfer one or both, and/or reprimand in Jack's file (keeping him from ever being promoted) or even force him to retire. In either case, I don't think there'd be jail time so much as Jack being forced to retire or kicked out. Unless they could pin larger charges such as dereliction of duty or negligence that someone was killed or something else worse case scenario-y (such as Jack and Sam distracted with each other and missed the token bad guy that snuck in and killed Daniel (again)).

I am by no means an expert on military law. So if there's a minimum/maximum penalty for fraternization I'm not aware of it.

I knew a 2Lt who started dating an enlisted man (also a big no-no and part of the frat regs) and she basically got out of trouble by marrying him. But she did get a reprimand in her file. I lost track of her so I don't know if that ever kept her from getting promoted, but I did hear they divorced a few years later so quick-y marriages to get around the frat regs do not always end happily. Now, just because she basically only got a reprimand in her file doesn't mean that's all Jack would get. She was only an inexperienced 2Lt. Jack is a full bird and higher and so a higher standard is placed on him.

[Akamaimom]

They both made choices and they both made excuses.

And honestly, it's hard sometimes to act even when you know someone is right for you. And that has to be terrifying--to believe that your life is supposed to be one way and then along comes this man (or woman--or whatever) and you suddenly KNOW that you need to be doing something else. That's how I met my husband--but I didn't have an established career at the time, and I wasn't supposed to be saving the world every week, so it was easier for me.

But I can see how these two people would have maintained status quo for a while--just because ending the known for the uncertain is not an easy thing to do.

[Skydiver]

I've always seen it...jack is/was afraid of losing the friendship. And that's often what happens when people try to take the 'next step' and it doesn't work out...they can't work together anymore. also, yes, sam's career would be tainted by 'sleeping her way to the top' whether she did or not.(Course as some have mentioned in fic, the suspicion is already there)
for Sam, she's has positively rotten luck with men and likely didn't want to mess up the working relationship by going further. I think she was also a bit afraid...i mean her first finace was a murderer...kinda makes you question your judgment

In real life, there were ways around it. transferring to another team, just letting Hammond know what was going on, etc. The regs were a crutch the writers used to avoid the issue.

[JenniferJF]

Would they have been Court Martialed for breaking the regs? It depends. I think it would depend on what happened that they were found out. Was a mission screwed up because of it or did someone just find out? How many people know? Because of Jack's high rank, it's possible that they might want to make an example of him. If something bad came out of it (blotched mission, someone injured or killed) then probably. If it happened fairly quietly, they might want to sweep it under the rug, and keep the punishment fairly quiet. Jack could opt for nonjudicial punishment (Article 15-punished and goes in record, but is not a criminal conviction). <clip>

I knew a 2Lt who started dating an enlisted man (also a big no-no and part of the frat regs) and she basically got out of trouble by marrying him. But she did get a reprimand in her file. I lost track of her so I don't know if that ever kept her from getting promoted, but I did hear they divorced a few years later so quick-y marriages to get around the frat regs do not always end happily. Now, just because she basically only got a reprimand in her file doesn't mean that's all Jack would get. She was only an inexperienced 2Lt. Jack is a full bird and higher and so a higher standard is placed on him.

From what I remember of how it works in the service, this is pretty much it. And it's how the regs are written, too. There's quite a bit of leeway for COs in determining punishment depending on the consequences of the relationship. It also depends on other factors, too, as many of you have pointed out.

Adultery, btw, in and of itself, is still also forbidden by the UCMJ. At least back when I was in, it was taken extremely seriously because it can destroy the very framework by which people leave their families behind to go where the military sends them and unit cohesion if the person being cheated on is in the same unit as the person having an affair with his or her spouse. In most of the pure fraternization cases I saw, in which the people simply happened to be stationed at the same place and in ranks which meant their relationship was *technically* fraternization, they generally kept their relationship hidden until they got married and no one ever really cared as far as I knew (though none of them got found out before the marriage, either).

If it were to happen in the same unit, or if adultery were involved or, as Seahen said, dire consequences to the military resulted, all kinds of other issues and regulations would also come into play and the consequences would likely be far worse.

As for Sam and Jack, I tend to agree with what's already been said, especially by Nynaeve (which, since she was agreeing with things I've said in the past, isn't that surprising). I think it's clear Jack has little respect for the regs Per Se, simply because they exist, but will quickly break them if he believes they endanger someone's wellbeing (see Learning Curve). OTOH, I think he believes in the frat regs, especially as they pertain to protecting Sam against the fallout of an affair with a senior officer, and wouldn't simply break the regs even if he was certain she loved him and wanted a relationship. I do think, as Nynaeve said, he would do what I believe he did after Threads and figure out a way to have a relationship with her without breaking the regs.

But again, as I've never thought The Regs were more than an excuse for Sam and Jack to avoid confronting their real fears and the real reasons they weren't going to start a relationship except in so far as The Regs made starting a relationship even *more* dangerous as doing so required sacrificing everything else in their life, I don't think the question "would they have gotten in trouble for breaking the regs?" is necessarily valid except as an intellectual exercise.

[Amaunet]

You know what they say about how "wordy" pictures can be! I love the pics, too! So--inspiring!

And as for words. . .Here's that Redemption tag I was talking about earlier. . .

Eating Elephants Enjoy!

WOW
Really amazing fic! I could definitely see this happening. Keep it up