Sam Carter /Jack O'Neill Ship Appreciation Thread 2.0

[Nynaeve506]

Seahen! Thank you!

Had you not had screen caps I could have probably convinced my dad to take pictures of his insignias for comparison (he was a pilot that retired Lt. Colonel). He might have thought I was a little weird though.

:: shifty eyes ::

[ddc]

I'm not seeing any oak leaves. Just a dark blob.

In his background on wikipedia, it says "Mitchell achieved the rank of Captain and became an Air Force fighter pilot." (according to the Lexicon entry on Cameron Mitchell). From there "Mitchell was promoted and selected for a position in the top secret F-302 program at Stargate Command. ..... Some months later, Earth came under attack from Anubis, and Mitchell, as 'Blue Leader', led the F-302 pilots from the Prometheus that engaged Anubis's fleet in a dogfight over Antarctica." So, in my own little fantasy world (), regardless of what that blue blob is on his jacket, he was a Major in Season 8's "Lost City". (I figure he was promoted "after the fact" when the filming of the flashback was done for "Avalon".)

In the flashback the writing on the side of his 302 says Lt Col

[JenniferJF]

In the flashback the writing on the side of his 302 says Lt Col

Which, along with the insignia, is an example of how Stargate - more than most TV - really does expect a certain amount of intelligence from it's viewers. As I once heard it said, we're expected to keep up with the group. The tour will *not* be waiting for stragglers and you'll have to catch up on your own.

Still think they were a little *too* vague at the beginning of S9, what with there being no on screen evidence I've ever seen detailing why Jack left for Washington, though as I've said before, here we pretty much assumed it was to get out of Sam's direct chain-of-command and that any 'real' reason they might have given would have been just an excuse Though that seems *too* obtuse even for Stargate, though maybe that was the point?

EDIT: And apparently so was the fact Cam outranked Sam, as so many in fandom seemed to have missed it.

[Akamaimom]

Which, along with the insignia, is an example of how Stargate - more than most TV - really does expect a certain amount of intelligence from it's viewers. As I once heard it said, we're expected to keep up with the group. The tour will *not* be waiting for stragglers and you'll have to catch up on your own.

Still think they were a little *too* vague at the beginning of S9, what with there being no on screen evidence I've ever seen detailing why Jack left for Washington, though as I've said before, here we pretty much assumed it was to get out of Sam's direct chain-of-command and that any 'real' reason they might have given would have been just an excuse Though that seems *too* obtuse even for Stargate, though maybe that was the point?

EDIT: And apparently so was the fact Cam outranked Sam, as so many in fandom seemed to have missed it.

They totally do it on purpose. I think that they feed off watching the various interpretations of things swirl around.

They are so firm about some things--like the 38 minute window for an active 'Gate. Yet really important stuff they fudge over. Like Sam and Jack being a dedicated couple post-Threads. I think it's their form of entertainment.

[JenniferJF]

They totally do it on purpose. I think that they feed off watching the various interpretations of things swirl around.

They are so firm about some things--like the 38 minute window for an active 'Gate. Yet really important stuff they fudge over. Like Sam and Jack being a dedicated couple post-Threads. I think it's their form of entertainment.

lol. I won't give my personal opinion on it here cause it tends to make people angry at me...

But in general, I agree. Though I will mention I think all art - which is uncommon to find on television - generally lacks absolute clarity of meaning.

[Akamaimom]

lol. I won't give my personal opinion on it here cause it tends to make people angry at me...

But in general, I agree. Though I will mention I think all art - which is uncommon to find on television - generally lacks absolute clarity of meaning.

And even when it does have clarity of meaning according to the artist, you can always skew art to mean what you want it to mean.

[JenniferJF]

And even when it does have clarity of meaning according to the artist, you can always skew art to mean what you want it to mean.

Which is of course part of what makes it art and not simply scientific explanation or analysis.

[Akamaimom]

It's like Theodore Roethke's poem "My Papa's Waltz". We had to read that in a lit class in college and it's always stuck with me because half the class firmly believed that it was a poem about child abuse, and the other half felt that it was a poem sparked by a treasured childhood memory. We debated the issue for DAYS--never coming to a consensus. And since Roethke never stated explicitly what the work was about--no one won.

It's like the shipper vs. non-shipper debates. Until it's stated explicitly, the arguments will continue. You have to decide what it means to you and be satisfied with that.

And keep hoping that the argument is decided in your favor.

[Rachel500]

I'm a big believer in art, and the meaning within, being in the eye of the beholder.

That said, I think the issue with Cam's rank is less to do with art and more to do with a change of mind in that they began with one premise (that he was a Lt Col in The Lost City and therefore outranked Sam technically in terms of time-in-grade - hence the props in the flashbacks) and shifted to another position later because they wanted to show a more equal relationship on screen (having them say each other's name, for instance) rather than repeating the Carter-O'Neill dynamic so determined that they were both the same rank so Cam didn't really 'lead' her as such despite the title of SG1 leader, and this was something they additionally went with in commentary and in canon (Cam says as much to Landry in Uninvited) when the fan outcry over Sam losing the SG1 leadership hit. Hence the difference in perception between the rank in the flashbacks, and how the issue of rank in regards to Sam and Cam later became fudged in terms of the fandom. It's a bit like how Walter's name tag for years said 'Davis' before canonically he became Walter Harriman - which do you take as your canon when the canon contradicts itself.

As far as Sam goes, while I've never felt she was overtly ambitious or aggressive about pursuing her career (more the work hard and you shall be rewarded type), she was always thrilled to be given command, took it seriously and it was important to her to do well in command. So while I kind of agree with she didn't *want* command in that she didn't pursue it as an explicit goal, I think she fully expected to attain commands and was incredibly proud to have been SG1 leader. I do think Sam coming back to SG1 having been the leader, regardless of the changes in her personal life such as getting together with Jack and the personal contentment that would bring, would have felt the bite of the loss.

[Akamaimom]

I'm sorry! I wasn't commenting on Sam/Cam--even though my comments were spurred on by that. I apologize for taking a strange tangent here. The art thing came out of a conversation I was having elsewhere, and kind of came out here.

My impression is that Sam didn't want the command--although everyone here is right in that she would have done it well, and succeeded mightily. I always thought that they kind of shared it, although I know that has no basis in Military fact--there has to be a single person in charge.

Having said that, my comments were rooted in the idea of artists/producers purposefully making things vague in order to allow themselves more leeway later on.

I wasn't trying to opine one way or the other on whether or not Cam outranked Sam. Whenever I watched those first season 9 episodes, I thought that she'd left voluntarily and then come back after Cam had been given command, hence ceding that authority to him. It truly never bothered me--she and Mitchell seemed to have a great working relationship, and I just sat back and enjoyed it.

So, just ignore me. I'm babbling, anyway.

and this I know. . .

[JenniferJF]

That said, I think the issue with Cam's rank is less to do with art and more to do with a change of mind in that they began with one premise (that he was a Lt Col in The Lost City and therefore outranked Sam technically in terms of time-in-grade - hence the props in the flashbacks) and shifted to another position later because they wanted to show a more equal relationship on screen (having them say each other's name, for instance) rather than repeating the Carter-O'Neill dynamic so determined that they were both the same rank so Cam didn't really 'lead' her as such despite the title of SG1 leader, and this was something they additionally went with in commentary and in canon (Cam says as much to Landry in Uninvited) when the fan outcry over Sam losing the SG1 leadership hit. Hence the difference in perception between the rank in the flashbacks, and how the issue of rank in regards to Sam and Cam later became fudged in terms of the fandom.

Well, differences in time-in-rank while technically significant generally aren't significant in day-to-day relations. Meaning that even though Cam technically outranked Sam you'd expect them to treat each other as though they were the same rank. In fact, we see this right from the beginning in her conversation with him over the vid screen in Avalon. Time-in-rank is generally (in my experience) only significant for promotions and assignments and that sort of thing. So, personally, I find the way they act and their positions consistent with the idea that Cam technically out-ranks Sam due to time-in-grade.

[Fluffy17]

[QUOTE=XFchemist;11590768]My contribution for the Penguins challenge No5
Made an artwork based on this quote "How was it possible that he hadn't known?"
~Sam Carter, from "The Lies You Feed Yourself" by AnnerbQUOTE]

Oh my your vids just get better and better. Fantastic stuff - and oh what a question

[Rachel500]

Well, differences in time-in-rank while technically significant generally aren't significant in day-to-day relations. Meaning that even though Cam technically outranked Sam you'd expect them to treat each other as though they were the same rank. In fact, we see this right from the beginning in her conversation with him over the vid screen in Avalon. Time-in-rank is generally (in my experience) only significant for promotions and assignments and that sort of thing. So, personally, I find the way they act and their positions consistent with the idea that Cam technically out-ranks Sam due to time-in-grade.

I'm sure that's true in reality but my point was more to do with TPTB wanting to change from the formal dynamic that characterised Sam and Jack's interaction (which we all know from a character perspective was a distancing thing because of their very personal feelings for each other) with Cam and Sam, and have them be on familiar terms (I believe it's one of the reasons why they decided against having Mitchell be a full bird).

Therefore they downplayed any perceived or intentional difference in rank and/or position, because let's face it the casual viewer isn't going to appreciate the subtleties of time-in-grade but would appreciate that Cam was the leader of SG1, by emphasising they were the same rank period - and therefore could get around Sam calling Cam 'Cam' when for years she'd been so formal with 'Jack.' And hence why you get the confusion in terms of the flashbacks (that visually show Cam was a Lt Col before Sam) vs the perceived canon (that they are verbally emphasised as being absolutely the same rank and therefore adding to the idea that Cam had no advantage in that respect in regards to the leadership debate).

Personally, (and in a segue to make this more on topic), I like that they did decide to make the distinction between 'Sir/Carter' and Sam calling Cam 'Cam.' I think it adds weight to the notion that there was an underlying character reason why Sam was so formal with Jack beyond the professional protocol because as we all know Sam could have been calling Jack, 'Jack' certainly in team/informal settings if he'd given her permission.

[Akamaimom]

Personally, (and in a segue to make this more on topic), I like that they did decide to make the distinction between 'Sir/Carter' and Sam calling Cam 'Cam.' I think it adds weight to the notion that there was an underlying character reason why Sam was so formal with Jack beyond the professional protocol because as we all know Sam could have been calling Jack, 'Jack' certainly in team/informal settings if he'd given her permission.

Ooh--good point.

[JenniferJF]

Personally, (and in a segue to make this more on topic), I like that they did decide to make the distinction between 'Sir/Carter' and Sam calling Cam 'Cam.' I think it adds weight to the notion that there was an underlying character reason why Sam was so formal with Jack beyond the professional protocol because as we all know Sam could have been calling Jack, 'Jack' certainly in team/informal settings if he'd given her permission.

But that's my point. From the get-go, Sam and Cam were the same rank, LTC, and were consistently portrayed this way. She would never have called him 'Sir' (unless *maybe* she was commanding a unit under one he was commanding *and* had only recently received a promotion and so was used to him outranking her but I can't recall ever hearing it done). And they did this from the character's inception, at least on screen. I don't think this was a change caused by fandom or made at any point in the process other than as it was there at his origin.

Maybe it's because I was never in fandom until late in S9, but I never saw a shift at all in the way anyone on SG1 related to each other or a shift in how SG1 was led (if there was a point at which Sam and Cam formally or obviously took 'co command' where before he was completely in charge I missed it).

Though maybe you're actually agreeing in saying you're glad they made Sam and Jack the same rank from the get-go to clear that.

Maybe it's because it's so hard to explain the fact that, while someone with more time-in-grade technically outranks someone with less, they are still considered to be the same rank. In reality, you'd never have two LTCs on the same team - it's a gross waste of military resources - which may be why it was so easy to assume Sam was simply attached back to SG1 rather than a formal member. It actually makes NO sense within the context of SG1, even, as if Cam was so capable of leading SG1 they should have put Sam on a different team as commander if they'd wanted her really back at the SGC. Unless, as said, she was merely there as a consultant.

Which is why that's how it was in my personal canon

Just don't get me started on the fact officers *aren't* medics. Even PAs are warrant officers... Unless the Air Force is vastly different than the Army (and I doubt it could be because medical resources are generally joint service both state-side and when deployed.)

EDIT: Actually, it might have been better if they'd started out with Cam as a Colonel rather than an LTC as that would have cleared up any questions about why he was in command rather than Sam. Seriously. And then her calling him Cam rather than Sam would have been more significant, too