Sam Carter /Jack O'Neill Ship Appreciation Thread 2.0

[trupi]

I've got nothing to add, but a question for you other shippers.

A reviewer (she's sweet, but not a shipper) says that shippers view Jack as being more open emotionally than non shippers.

I don't think that this is a shipper vs. non shipper view, but that people who see Jack as being flat and tactical and cold are people who don't give him the benefit of time and distance from the tragedies that were his life before the Stargate program.

Do I see Jack as being a person who can talk about "stuff" because I ship, or do I see him that way because I'm a person who has lived through tragedies and can now see them with some perspective?

What do you all think about this? And about your own views on him and his maturation and evolutionary process? Because the Jack from the movie/first season is a different Jack from Threads. . .right?

Send this question to the "MADD" thread since there are shippers and non shipper participation at the thread ( have no fear, we are a friendly group)

[Nynaeve506]

I've got nothing to add, but a question for you other shippers.

A reviewer (she's sweet, but not a shipper) says that shippers view Jack as being more open emotionally than non shippers.

I don't think that this is a shipper vs. non shipper view, but that people who see Jack as being flat and tactical and cold are people who don't give him the benefit of time and distance from the tragedies that were his life before the Stargate program.

Do I see Jack as being a person who can talk about "stuff" because I ship, or do I see him that way because I'm a person who has lived through tragedies and can now see them with some perspective?

What do you all think about this? And about your own views on him and his maturation and evolutionary process? Because the Jack from the movie/first season is a different Jack from Threads. . .right?

I feel like a lot of fanfic writers write Jack as a woman - which is why I generally stick to hovering around Sam's head when I write unless I'm confident I've got Jack with testosterone.

As for being emotionally open... I think to some extent in his private life now he talks about some of it with Sam without necessarily volunteering or being all that detailed. I don't think she expects it from him, but he does offer it, which is why the relationship is successful. You simply cannot have a healthy relationship with one person refusing to share who and what they're experiencing. That said, I would say it's not a full on emotional blast. More like a quiet moment, an off-handed comment, Sam seeing through a humorous statement.

Am I making sense?

[JenniferJF]

My eleven year old asked "Why don't they just kiss already?" And my eight and ten year old daughters just squeed. I think I've corrupted them all.

For years my daughter referred to Jack as "Mr. Carter". Apparently she associates men with the women she sees them attached to

[JenniferJF]

I've got nothing to add, but a question for you other shippers.

A reviewer (she's sweet, but not a shipper) says that shippers view Jack as being more open emotionally than non shippers.

I don't think that this is a shipper vs. non shipper view, but that people who see Jack as being flat and tactical and cold are people who don't give him the benefit of time and distance from the tragedies that were his life before the Stargate program.

Do I see Jack as being a person who can talk about "stuff" because I ship, or do I see him that way because I'm a person who has lived through tragedies and can now see them with some perspective?

What do you all think about this? And about your own views on him and his maturation and evolutionary process? Because the Jack from the movie/first season is a different Jack from Threads. . .right?

Hmmm...

I have to agree that there are a lot of shippers, and they're seen in fanfics, who I do think see Jack as being far more open emotionally than I think he's generally portrayed on the series. In fact, I'm one of those who think it's that and the coldness and tragedies he's experienced which are at the heart of his accepting the status quo for so many years.

However, I don't think, as you mentioned, that those conditions were permanent or necessarily an innate part of his personality. I think they were caused by tragedy and pain and fear and the major growth arc for Jack as a character were his coming to overcome the scars and pain of his past in order to move forward. Even then, though, I don't think he's the kind to be overly emotional about his feelings even after Threads when I think he'd made the decision to risk it and go on and I do think most shippers tend to write him as talking more about 'stuff' than I can ever really see him doing. Or, in other words, some of his difficulty in talking about 'stuff' mentioned by Sara I can't see him ever overcoming. Some people - men more often than females I think - are just that way, and I don't think Jack will ever be the kind to sit down and talk about his feelings or even be overly demonstrative about them.

So I don't think it's necessarily a 'shipper' vs. 'non-shipper' thing, but I actually do think that, in general, your friend is right. This could be, in fact, why I find so very many ship fics vaguely OOC - Jack is often written as far more emotionally open than I see him as being (I.M.H.O, of course) OTOH, I don't think you *need* to make Jack more emotionally in touch and open to discussing 'stuff' than we see him onscreen in order to 'ship' him with Sam. Lots of men end up in perfectly good relationships and there's a talent to reading people without them having to 'tell' you how they're feeling which I think Sam has with Jack.

[JenniferJF]

As for being emotionally open... I think to some extent in his private life now he talks about some of it with Sam without necessarily volunteering or being all that detailed. I don't think she expects it from him, but he does offer it, which is why the relationship is successful. You simply cannot have a healthy relationship with one person refusing to share who and what they're experiencing. That said, I would say it's not a full on emotional blast. More like a quiet moment, an off-handed comment, Sam seeing through a humorous statement.

Am I making sense?

Yes, that's it exactly. And maybe I'm projecting from my own experience, but hubs is one of those quiet types who rarely overtly expresses emotion. In fact, most people who meet him are vaguely scared of him and convinced he's mad or angry or upset a lot of the time. I remember the first time I called him 'sweetie' in front of his family they did this *total* double take. It was funny - like I'd just petted a crocodile. And when we bought our house I knew instantly watching him walk through it that he was *in love* with it and yet when we made an offer the realtor admitted he was convinced John hated it from his reaction. Not that we don't have discussions about feelings or things, but we don't have them often... most of the time I can just look at him and know what he's feeling. And I've always been that way with him, which is probably why we ended up together in the first place So... point is... you don't need to have overt displays to express emotions.

[Akamaimom]

I don't see Jack as a person who can freely and openly discuss fears and pains, in fact--I don't see him even being able or willing to say "I love you" all that often. And I don't think that I see him as being able to openly talk about how he feels about everything. I just think that he's not closed off anymore--that time has enabled him to act differently.

I think he has internalized and worked through his pain--I don't believe that he's running from it anymore, though. And in his case, that may be just as important as being able to talk about it.

And Jen--are you sure your husband and mine aren't related? He's a menacing sort, and very large, and my whole family calls him "The Killer of Joy" because he always looks mad about something. He's not, of course, it's just how he is.

[Nynaeve506]

Yes, that's it exactly. And maybe I'm projecting from my own experience, but hubs is one of those quiet types who rarely overtly expresses emotion. In fact, most people who meet him are vaguely scared of him and convinced he's mad or angry or upset a lot of the time. I remember the first time I called him 'sweetie' in front of his family they did this *total* double take. It was funny - like I'd just petted a crocodile. And when we bought our house I knew instantly watching him walk through it that he was *in love* with it and yet when we made an offer the realtor admitted he was convinced John hated it from his reaction. Not that we don't have discussions about feelings or things, but we don't have them often... most of the time I can just look at him and know what he's feeling. And I've always been that way with him, which is probably why we ended up together in the first place So... point is... you don't need to have overt displays to express emotions.

I don't see Jack as a person who can freely and openly discuss fears and pains, in fact--I don't see him even being able or willing to say "I love you" all that often. And I don't think that I see him as being able to openly talk about how he feels about everything. I just think that he's not closed off anymore--that time has enabled him to act differently.

I think he has internalized and worked through his pain--I don't believe that he's running from it anymore, though. And in his case, that may be just as important as being able to talk about it.

And Jen--are you sure your husband and mine aren't related? He's a menacing sort, and very large, and my whole family calls him "The Killer of Joy" because he always looks mad about something. He's not, of course, it's just how he is.

Maybe your husbands are related to my dad. To everyone outside my immediate family my dad looks like this quiet military man that you should watch yourself around. He doesn't talk about his emotions (he sucks at that), but with us (my mom, my sis, and me) he's hilarious and a softie (to an extent. When I complained about doing something the line was "Shannon, in life we all have to do things we don't want to do, so suck it up and deal with it" also "Life's tough. It's even tougher when you're stupid" (the last one was usually said to the evening news - never to me)). I definitely pull some of my understanding of Jack from my father (they have the same matter-of-fact mentality - that one episode when Jack tells the Kelownans to go home with the reply "That's what you get when you dick around" - sounds exactly like something my dad would say).

All that said, the other issue with Jack-fics I run into is the internal dialoging they have him do. I think in *general* a lot of fanfic is written by women (not that there aren't men, just that the majority are women) and instead of writing the characters there's a lot of "romance novel" writing - creating the man we wish existed and not the man passing gas in the bed in the middle of... oops, hit the ratings limit on this forum. LOL

[Akamaimom]

Maybe your husbands are related to my dad. To everyone outside my immediate family my dad looks like this quiet military man that you should watch yourself around. He doesn't talk about his emotions (he sucks at that), but with us (my mom, my sis, and me) he's hilarious and a softie (to an extent. When I complained about doing something the line was "Shannon, in life we all have to do things we don't want to do, so suck it up and deal with it" also "Life's tough. It's even tougher when you're stupid" (the last one was usually said to the evening news - never to me)). I definitely pull some of my understanding of Jack from my father (they have the same matter-of-fact mentality - that one episode when Jack tells the Kelownans to go home with the reply "That's what you get when you dick around" - sounds exactly like something my dad would say).

All that said, the other issue with Jack-fics I run into is the internal dialoging they have him do. I think in *general* a lot of fanfic is written by women (not that there aren't men, just that the majority are women) and instead of writing the characters there's a lot of "romance novel" writing - creating the man we wish existed and not the man passing gas in the bed in the middle of... oops, hit the ratings limit on this forum. LOL

In short, we want real men, and not the namby pamby new agers that seem to get shunted forth these days. I dated some of those in college--the ones that cried in the movie before I did. No thanks.

I'll take gas over tears any day.

Having said that, it's different. My husband and I dealt with our loss in such different ways that I was a little concerned--I can understand completely how couples break up after such heartache. On the other hand, I know he felt it. We didn't talk about specifics, but when he said (months later) "Yeah--that sucked." I know that there was a lot there that didn't get said. So. . .I think it's the same with Jack. And any emotional stuff that he'd be dealing with would be dealt with in his way--but I think he's grown up enough to confront it and not just shove it away. And I think that he would make his feelings known--through actions and not words.

But sometimes actions say more anyway.

[Nynaeve506]

That's the difficulty with loss is that because everyone deals with it differently it's hard to say how things will end up. I knew a couple in high school that had been married for twenty or so years when they lost their adult, married, son unexpectedly. They grieved so differently that they ended up both in situations that led to a divorce - she threw herself into extracurricular activities and was gone all the time, and he found comfort with a woman who had five kids who had just lost her husband in a car accident. Yeah, so you can see how that turned out . So I can totally see how Sara and Jack could have had a rock solid marriage but because they both needed something different, ended up falling apart. I believe they loved each other...

It's just one of those things that on some level couples have to consider. Having watched what happened to the couple I knew in high school and knowing my own tendency to withdraw when in pain, it's something Elijah and I have talked about (does that make me morbid?).

And maybe that's why Sam and Jack worked out. Jack made some peace with what had happened, did some growing, and thinking, and on some level Sam/Jack get each other... now. I've never been a shipper who thought S/J were just so perfect for each other to the point that Sara hadn't been very awesome with Jack. They were two different women at two different points in Jack's life.

[JackandSamAddict]

Okay, so I've been rewatching the entire series, I'm on season 6. I have also watched the entire 24 series. This is on topic, I swear!

I can see parallels between our Jack and Jack Bauer. Both are never open with their emotions. They would use their actions to speak for them, and both have.

Take Jack in Red Sky. He was ready to put a bullet in Malchus' chest. When it comes to 'his people' there is a line there, and if someone hurts one of them, then it can turn out badly. Just as we saw with Jack Bauer this past season.

I don't know what would cause it(probably something with Sam), but I could see Jack O'Neill being pushed to the point of no return. We've seen him at the brink, and I think he could be pushed over the edge if it impacted him enough. Of course, this is MHO.

[Nynaeve506]

Okay, so I've been rewatching the entire series, I'm on season 6. I have also watched the entire 24 series. This is on topic, I swear!

I can see parallels between our Jack and Jack Bauer. Both are never open with their emotions. They would use their actions to speak for them, and both have.

Take Jack in Red Sky. He was ready to put a bullet in Malchus' chest. When it comes to 'his people' there is a line there, and if someone hurts one of them, then it can turn out badly. Just as we saw with Jack Bauer this past season.

I don't know what would cause it(probably something with Sam), but I could see Jack O'Neill being pushed to the point of no return. We've seen him at the brink, and I think he could be pushed over the edge if it impacted him enough. Of course, this is MHO.

I'll give that there are probably parallels because both do black ops type work and there's just a certain personality that goes with that... but that's as far as I can make the comparison (and don't get me wrong, I enjoy 24). Jack Bauer lacks the sense of humor our Jack has - and I would argue *doesn't* hide his emotions. J. Bauer waits, bides his time, and then beats the living crap out of someone. Jack O'Neill is good humored but, I believe, would walk away from half the stuff that J.B takes on. Not because he's a coward but because he's not interested in being anyone assassin.

Plus there's the fact that the characters are written as two very people in two very different worlds with two very different lives. Jack O's isn't drenched in tragedy. He has *had* tragedy, but it doesn't show up on his doorstep - he finds friends, love, a good job, all worth fighting and living for. J.B. loses *everything* (all the time LOL - in fact my biggest gripe with the show was that I stopped caring about characters because chances are they were going to end up on the body count).

In the end, Jack finds redemption and hope and ends up with Sam. Meanwhile resident bad-a$$ J.B... well we know how that turned out

[SamJackShipper93]

Happy Birthday Joe!


*Crankie by zuz

Happy birthday Joe,

For your day I give you some tidbits that come from the novelization o Air, ehich I sat and read at the bookstore today. Okay, I only read the Jack and Jack/Sam bits, but...whatever.

First up is a good Sam/Rush scene on the Hammond, where we see some Jacklike things from Sam. Then there's the additional scene of Jack getting tothe HQ to talk to Sam and get the report on the loss of Icarus base. At the end of that report, Jack says, " Good to see you're okay, Colonel". Slightly shippy.

The cut Rush scene we've all seen between Jack and Rush is in the novelzation, which makes me think all of what's in there was based on script. The dialogue is pretty much spot-on

What else? Can't think of anything, but I did like Jack's telling Sam he was glad to see she is okay. I mean, how often did we ever hear him say that to Carter?

So...that's your tidbit. I only read the good parts, anyone got any other things to add?

Well, I suppose that I could add this:

Excerpt from "Air" Novel (Jack/Sam Scene):

Spoiler:

Harriman nodded. "We received a garbled subspace signal that cut out before we could make sense of it. All the evidence points to heavy localized jamming. All communications in that area have been completely cut off. The SGC can’t reach them either, but we managed to get in contact with the Hammond.” He tapped a few controls on a keypad and the screen switched to a standby mode. “I have Colonel Carter for you, sir.”

The general turned to the display as Samantha Carter’s face appeared on it. Behind her, O’Neill could see a slice of the Hammond’s bridge, and what appeared to be members of a damage control party working at blown-out consoles. What the hell happened out there? he wondered.

Carter looked grim, and she wasted no time with preamble and got straight to the point. “General, we barely got away,” she said. “The enemy came out of nowhere with an invasion force, hit us before we could react.”

“Who did this?” he demanded.

She frowned. “We think it was the Lucian Alliance.”

“What about Icarus Base?” He was dreading the answer.

The colonel’s lips thinned. “We now have visual confirmation. The planet was destroyed. Vaporized.”

“Good grief,” whispered Sharpe, from behind him.

“That explains why we haven’t been able to dial in.” O’Neill’s mind was already racing, thinking quickly on every possible outcome, every ripple that could spread out from the center of this terrible incident.

Carter went on. “We managed to beam aboard most of our people from the surface before jumping to hyperspace. We believe that the enemy forces were also destroyed in the planetary collapse.”

That meant no prisoners, and no prisoners meant nobody to interrogate as to the reasons why the Lucian Alliance - if they were to blame - had come to Icarus with malicious intent.

“Any word on how they may have gained intel on our base?” Carter was thinking the same thing.

O’Neill glanced at Harriman, and the sergeant shook his head. “No. We don’t even know why the attack was launched.” The general’s frown deepened; the last they had heard of the Alliance, that loose gathering of interstellar criminal factions were in the midst of an internal struggle, fighting one another to fill a power vacuum largely created by the actions of SG-1. Maybe they solved their differences and turned on us instead, he thought grimly. He looked up at the screen. “Casualties on our side?”

“Twelve,” said Carter. “Eighty plus MIA. Icarus’s bunker shielding technology prevented us from beaming out anyone inside. How many got through the gate to Earth?”

Harriman shook his head again.

“None.” And there it was; eighty people’s lives, cut down to one word.

The signal from the Hammond flickered, brief cosmic static washing across the image. “None?” repeated Carter, her brow creasing in confusion. “Our sensors indicated that their Stargate was active for a full six minutes before the planetary core went critical.”

“Well, they didn’t show up here.” O’Neill saw Harriman turn away and ask urgent questions of one of the desk operators.

“Then where did they go?”

“Good question,” said the general. “I’ll let you know when I have an answer.” He paused and offered his old friend a rueful smile. “Glad you’re okay, Colonel.”

Carter nodded. “Thank you, sir.”

Excerpt from "Air" Novel (Jack/Rush Scene):

Spoiler:

He folded the report closed and dropped it on the seat next to him, before pausing to flick a tiny piece of lint from the front of his uniform jacket. “You’re sure this is the one, Doctor?”

The man sitting opposite him in the limo made a face. “You saw the report.”

“I saw that some kid busting the high score on Donkey Kong is apparently a reason to get me out of bed at oh-dark-thirty hours.”

“It’s a little more complicated than that, General. The decode test requires a unique mindset and no little skill to complete. You read the boy’s academic records. High IQ, low self esteem, intelligent but an under-achiever. Potential without purpose. Just the kind of resource the program needs that gets lost in the cracks.”

“If you say so. I just thought we had enough brains on board without having to do this whole Sword in the Stone thing.”

“As I said,” continued the doctor, his tone cooling, “it’s more complicated than that.”

“It so often is.” The general reached for the door handle. “Wait in the car till I call you,” he said.

“Uh, sir . . .”

He ignored the other man, picking up his service cap and setting it squarely on his head. “Don’t worry, the uniform makes a strong first impression.” He tapped the file. “I got a read on this kid. Believe me, I know the type pretty well.”

“Geniuses?”

“Geeks.”

{Fast forward through the scene that's already on the episode}

"Right. I think I want my lawyer to look at it first..."

“By lawyer,” said O’Neill, “I assume you mean mother?”

The door was already closing. “Why don’t we just go ahead and agree that I will call you?”

Then O’Neill and Rush were standing alone on the stoop. “I can see you’ve done this recruiting thing a lot, General,” said the doctor, with no little sarcasm. “Good job.”

“Just priming him, is all,” he replied, reaching into his pocket for an encrypted cell phone. “Now we make with some shock and awe.” He tabbed the speed dial for a number that did not and would never exist in any kind of public record, and waited a moment.

When the line connected, he spoke a terse codeword and gave his orders. “Walter? Contact Carter. Tell her she has a go.”

Excerpt from "Air" Novel (Sam/Rush Scene):

Spoiler:

Missing scene - near the beginning of "Air, Part 1". Onboard the Hammond:

She rapped on the hatch with her knuckles, and from within came a distracted voice. "Come in."

Entering the cramped visiting officer's quarters, she saw Rush bent over a laptop and a scattering of papers, his attention buried deep in his work. Before she could speak, he gestured at a covered tray from the ship's kitchen on a nearby shelf. "I'm done with that," he said.

Her lips thinned. "I'll be sure to have one of my crew square that away for you, doctor."

Rush looked up in surprise. "Colonel Carter." He recovered quickly and gave her a flat smile. "I'm sorry." Immediately, he was closing the lid of the laptop. "What can I do for you?"

Excerpt from "Air" Novel (Jack/Rush Scene):

Spoiler:

Scene where Rush (in Telford’s body) is explaining the situation to Jack:

When the two of them were alone, O’Neill asked the question that Young knew was coming. “So...how bad is it?”

“It’s bad,” he replied.

“You should know we’ve already had an emergency briefing about all this,” said the general. “Strom and the rest of the IOA are afraid that the attack on Icarus was just the opening shot in something much bigger. They think those Lucian Alliance creeps might be making a move on us.”

“Is that likely?”

O’Neill shrugged. “A day or so ago I would have said no way, but right now...” He paused. “The Daedalus, the Odyssey, Sun Tzu, and Apollo are all on high alert. I’ve got people in the field trying to figure out if there’s more coming, or if this was just an attack of opportunity.”

“Anyone I know?”

“Jackson’s out with Vala chasing up her former contacts in the Alliance. Mitchell and Teal’c are sharing what intel we have with the Free Jaffa Nation. In the meantime, Carter’s on station at the moon base with the Hammond while we patch it up. I know she’s already talked to McKay and his people about ideas for getting you all back, but don’t get your hopes up.

[SamJackShipper93]

Happy Memorial Day, Shippers!

*Crankies by zuz

[JackandSamAddict]

I'll give that there are probably parallels because both do black ops type work and there's just a certain personality that goes with that... but that's as far as I can make the comparison (and don't get me wrong, I enjoy 24). Jack Bauer lacks the sense of humor our Jack has - and I would argue *doesn't* hide his emotions. J. Bauer waits, bides his time, and then beats the living crap out of someone. Jack O'Neill is good humored but, I believe, would walk away from half the stuff that J.B takes on. Not because he's a coward but because he's not interested in being anyone assassin.

Plus there's the fact that the characters are written as two very people in two very different worlds with two very different lives. Jack O's isn't drenched in tragedy. He has *had* tragedy, but it doesn't show up on his doorstep - he finds friends, love, a good job, all worth fighting and living for. J.B. loses *everything* (all the time LOL - in fact my biggest gripe with the show was that I stopped caring about characters because chances are they were going to end up on the body count).

In the end, Jack finds redemption and hope and ends up with Sam. Meanwhile resident bad-a$$ J.B... well we know how that turned out

I was saying that I think that both Jacks show their emotions through their actions, rather than talk about them. They both have their 'emotional' moments when their guards are down.

And I wasn't saying that Jack O. would just go off and beat the crap out of someone, nor would he just assassinate someone just to do it. Neither does Jack B. He has a reason for everything he does.

I was merely stating that I could see Jack O. getting to that point. It would have to be something deadly serious. That's all.

[Nynaeve506]

I was saying that I think that both Jacks show their emotions through their actions, rather than talk about them. They both have their 'emotional' moments when their guards are down.

And I wasn't saying that Jack O. would just go off and beat the crap out of someone, nor would he just assassinate someone just to do it. Neither does Jack B. He has a reason for everything he does.

I was merely stating that I could see Jack O. getting to that point. It would have to be something deadly serious. That's all.

And I was just making conversation