Sam Carter /Jack O'Neill Ship Appreciation Thread 2.0

[Akamaimom]

Jack didn't lie but he withheld from Sam, Daniel, Teal'c and his staff that he was dating Kerry. But, the reason he did so was obvious to me...he didn't want to hurt Sam and/or he was uncomfortable to make it public that he was dating someone and/or he continued to be ambivalent about having a serious relationship. Any other possible reasons?

We don't know that he didn't confide in one of them. We only don't know that he didn't tell her. It's possible that they knew and kept it from her--knowing that it would be awkward.

In that line of thought, however, do you think she'd be mad at them for not telling her? Do you think it would have changed anything for her had she know?

This really doesn't qualify, but his comment in "Gemini" about two Carters, when he said "if only" ... but I can't think of an appropriate way to include this, so I'll just toss it in anyway.

But, to be fair, Sam withheld information from him at times too.

Not sure these qualify, but the moments in "Lost City" when she tried to talk to him and he wouldn't let her.

Too bad they didn't just get locked in a room together long ago and told they couldn't come out till they resolved their issues with each other.

Yeah--she does withhold a little from him, but not outright lying.

Both of them do retain the whole truth--but neither of them overtly lie.

Both Pete and Joe do lie to her, however, and Orlin and Narim both go behind her back to get what they want (Orlin does that glowy thing and uses her credit cards and stuff, and Narim uses her voice--and we're not sure that's all--for his own purposes).

So, that's another reason that she belongs with Jack. He's the most honest with her.

Of course, EXCEPT with regards to the fact that he's in love with her and tells her to go marry Pete anyway.

But she has previously refused to go fishing with him and told him to leave it in the room.

So--toss up?

[Nynaeve506]

I think the two major areas that Jack truly deceives is when when he goes undercover and the Orlin surveillance - and both are in the line of duty which is something that I think Sam would definitely understand. Personally I don't think it was really anyone's business that he was with Kerry except his own. I've always felt that the team, while they spend a lot of time together on base, don't have as much in common outside and sort of do their own thing. Jack's not a "let me tell you about my day" kind of guy.

What Joe did was inexcusable IMO. This wasn't in the line of duty, this was trading the human race for shiny toys and longer lives. He makes it sound okay that it was only a smaller percentage he agreed to - but for Sam, her ability to have children is gone regardless. Who knows that she still wouldn't have been in the minority if the Aschen had kept their words. Worse yet, I've watched friends suffer with infertility - how could he? How could he sit there and be so dense as to not make the connection between the life-lengthening vaccination and his wife not getting pregnant? And if he wasn't dumb, then he was evil to the point of letting his wife suffer. The truth is, more than Jonas (who was a control freak) and more than Pete (who had this ideal in his head and also exhibited stalker like tendencies) he is perhaps the *worst* possible choice she could have ended up with IMO.

[Akamaimom]

What Joe did was inexcusable IMO. This wasn't in the line of duty, this was trading the human race for shiny toys and longer lives. He makes it sound okay that it was only a smaller percentage he agreed to - but for Sam, her ability to have children is gone regardless. Who knows that she still wouldn't have been in the minority if the Aschen had kept their words. Worse yet, I've watched friends suffer with infertility - how could he? How could he sit there and be so dense as to not make the connection between the life-lengthening vaccination and his wife not getting pregnant? And if he wasn't dumb, then he was evil to the point of letting his wife suffer. The truth is, more than Jonas (who was a control freak) and more than Pete (who had this ideal in his head and also exhibited stalker like tendencies) he is perhaps the *worst* possible choice she could have ended up with IMO.

Perhaps that's why it's so satisfying when she cuts the rope in 2001.

[Nynaeve506]

Perhaps that's why it's so satisfying when she cuts the rope in 2001.

It *is* rather satisfying isn't it? I suppose if I hadn't known what a cad he had been I might have been sympathetic. As it was I sort of thought it fitting that he was stuck with his Aschen partners in crime... even though he technically hadn't done anything yet...

It's kind of funny to me that of her three beaus, he's perhaps the most sinister but he comes across as the most stable.

[yessika]

It *is* rather satisfying isn't it? I suppose if I hadn't known what a cad he had been I might have been sympathetic. As it was I sort of thought it fitting that he was stuck with his Aschen partners in crime... even though he technically hadn't done anything yet...

It's kind of funny to me that of her three beaus, he's perhaps the most sinister but he comes across as the most stable.

I never noticed how true the bolded part is. What he did was horrible and yet people (including myself) complain more about the other guys with lesser crimes *shrugs*

[hedwig]

I think the two major areas that Jack truly deceives is when when he goes undercover and the Orlin surveillance - and both are in the line of duty which is something that I think Sam would definitely understand. Personally I don't think it was really anyone's business that he was with Kerry except his own. I've always felt that the team, while they spend a lot of time together on base, don't have as much in common outside and sort of do their own thing. Jack's not a "let me tell you about my day" kind of guy.

By the time Kerry came along, Jack was a general, and unlikely to socialize much (if at all) with his former teammates, and I think a distance of sorts developed between them all so that it was no surprise that nobody knew about Kerry. She did, after all, say that Jack didn't want anybody at the SGC to know about them, so I don't think he told Daniel or Teal'c either. If the team had been socializing all along, Pete would likely have been included in a few get-togethers (IMO), and at some point during the brief time Jack and Kerry were together, I'm thinking it would have gotten out somehow and Sam wouldn't have been so blindsided by Kerry being at Jack's house when Sam went to talk to him. Sam didn't, after all, know who Kerry was when she almost interrupted Jack and Kerry in Jack's office. Which in my opinion is a bit surprising, since if Kerry had been around the base during her investigation, it seems like the two women would have met at some point.

And I'm still not entirely sure Jack knew about the Orlin surveillance. If he did, I really think Sam would have found it hard to forgive after everyone doubting her so severely throughout the episode. I think she would have felt betrayed by everybody (at least for awhile, no matter how forgiving she is). She tried to report it, nobody believed her. Janet didn't believe her. Jack didn't believe her. Hammond didn't believe her. They really all thought she was nuts or having a breakdown. And I'm betting nobody apologized to her after she was proved right (even if she did break a couple of rules by not turning Orlin in the minute he became human, and then when she followed him to the other planet).

(*sorry about the babbling - that episodes irks me severely sometimes.*)

[Akamaimom]

And I'm still not entirely sure Jack knew about the Orlin surveillance. If he did, I really think Sam would have found it hard to forgive after everyone doubting her so severely throughout the episode. I think she would have felt betrayed by everybody (at least for awhile, no matter how forgiving she is). She tried to report it, nobody believed her. Janet didn't believe her. Jack didn't believe her. Hammond didn't believe her. They really all thought she was nuts or having a breakdown. And I'm betting nobody apologized to her after she was proved right (even if she did break a couple of rules by not turning Orlin in the minute he became human, and then when she followed him to the other planet).

I think he knew about it initially, but didn't know that they kept a few cameras there.

And as I've written in After the Rise, I think that whole thing is about trust, anyway--rather than the ascended being thing. They have to figure out how much they trust each other. . .

[Nynaeve506]

And I'm still not entirely sure Jack knew about the Orlin surveillance. If he did, I really think Sam would have found it hard to forgive after everyone doubting her so severely throughout the episode. I think she would have felt betrayed by everybody (at least for awhile, no matter how forgiving she is). She tried to report it, nobody believed her. Janet didn't believe her. Jack didn't believe her. Hammond didn't believe her. They really all thought she was nuts or having a breakdown. And I'm betting nobody apologized to her after she was proved right (even if she did break a couple of rules by not turning Orlin in the minute he became human, and then when she followed him to the other planet).

(*sorry about the babbling - that episodes irks me severely sometimes.*)

I've always interpreted the need for hidden surveillance as a way to keep Orlin from knowing what was going on. I don't think Jack necessarily would have *liked* the idea of spying on Sam, however, he would no doubt have been under orders from his superior officers to keep his mouth shut. In the end, I don't think it would have really been *that* hard to forgive - Sam's an officer, she understands this sort of thing. Yes, it's maddening and yes it would be extremely frustrating and there might be hurt, but in their line of work... well things like this are bound to happen.

[Akamaimom]

I've always interpreted the need for hidden surveillance as a way to keep Orlin from knowing what was going on. I don't think Jack necessarily would have *liked* the idea of spying on Sam, however, he would no doubt have been under orders from his superior officers to keep his mouth shut. In the end, I don't think it would have really been *that* hard to forgive - Sam's an officer, she understands this sort of thing. Yes, it's maddening and yes it would be extremely frustrating and there might be hurt, but in their line of work... well things like this are bound to happen.

And that's why I think that Jack knew about it. They considered her to be compromised--and she was being glowy thingied by Orlin--he could "read" her thoughts/knowledge. No matter how much he wouldn't have intended to.

And Sam, being an officer and intelligent, eventually would have understood that. Although I think she was upset about it principally.

HOWEVER--there's an illusion in (Beachhead?????) that indicates that Sam and Orlin were physically intimate, and I don't believe that. At all. Ick. Even though Orlin's pretty cute.

[hedwig]

I've always interpreted the need for hidden surveillance as a way to keep Orlin from knowing what was going on. I don't think Jack necessarily would have *liked* the idea of spying on Sam, however, he would no doubt have been under orders from his superior officers to keep his mouth shut. In the end, I don't think it would have really been *that* hard to forgive - Sam's an officer, she understands this sort of thing. Yes, it's maddening and yes it would be extremely frustrating and there might be hurt, but in their line of work... well things like this are bound to happen.

Well, given that General Hammond told Sam he wasn't aware of the surveillance, I'm pretty sure Jack wouldn't have known about it either. From the transcript of that episode:

HAMMOND: Not us. The Pentagon. I’m sorry Major. I’ve expressed my anger and disappointment to the President regarding the investigation of one of my officers without my knowledge.

This sounds to me that Hammond found out about it when Simmons (gleefully) paid him a visit with the evidence in hand, and that Jack was there when Simmons showed the evidence.

I do agree that given she's in the military, Sam would no doubt understand what happened. But I'm sure that as "Sam Carter, the person", she felt betrayed by people she thought she could trust. I have no doubt it wasn't easy to get over that betrayal, even knowing it was a military thing.

[Nynaeve506]

Well, given that General Hammond told Sam he wasn't aware of the surveillance, I'm pretty sure Jack wouldn't have known about it either. From the transcript of that episode:



This sounds to me that Hammond found out about it when Simmons (gleefully) paid him a visit with the evidence in hand, and that Jack was there when Simmons showed the evidence.

I do agree that given she's in the military, Sam would no doubt understand what happened. But I'm sure that as "Sam Carter, the person", she felt betrayed by people she thought she could trust. I have no doubt it wasn't easy to get over that betrayal, even knowing it was a military thing.

I hadn't remembered the quote, but I still maintain that had he known, it wouldn't have been betrayal.

[Regularamanda]

*slips in*

Just popping in to give a huge *huggle* and happy birthday wishes to my wonderful crazy weird friend Sally.

Happy Birthday Sally!!!!!

Hope you have a wonderful birthday!!! And a picspam for you.









(look Sal, 1969!Jack! )






(ohh...how'd that get in there? )

*gives more huggles and slips out*

[hedwig]

I hadn't remembered the quote, but I still maintain that it wasn't really betrayal LOL.

Well, perhaps there's a better word than betrayal when your friends and colleagues collectively think you're nuts and don't believe you, in spite of the fact they know about the strange/crazy/weird things that happen because of the work they do. It seemed to me that they learned nothing from the incident with Daniel in "Legacy", and instead of working with Sam to find out what was really going on (after doing all the obligatory tests), they still just thought she was overworked and "nuts". It seems to have been a thread throughout the series that Daniel and Sam were disbelieved in some instances like this, while Jack and Teal'c were often believed almost right away (after the obligatory testing was done). "Window of Opportunity" comes to mind, because right after Janet ran her tests on Jack and Teal', Sam and Daniel seemed to start right in looking for answers to figure things out. It irks me they were given that courtesy while Sam and Daniel were not. (All just my own opinion, mind you. )

[Nynaeve506]

Well, perhaps there's a better word than betrayal when your friends and colleagues collectively think you're nuts and don't believe you, in spite of the fact they know about the strange/crazy/weird things that happen because of the work they do. It seemed to me that they learned nothing from the incident with Daniel in "Legacy", and instead of working with Sam to find out what was really going on (after doing all the obligatory tests), they still just thought she was overworked and "nuts". It seems to have been a thread throughout the series that Daniel and Sam were disbelieved in some instances like this, while Jack and Teal'c were often believed almost right away (after the obligatory testing was done). "Window of Opportunity" comes to mind, because right after Janet ran her tests on Jack and Teal', Sam and Daniel seemed to start right in looking for answers to figure things out. It irks me they were given that courtesy while Sam and Daniel were not. (All just my own opinion, mind you. )

It's precisely because weird things happen that they have to be so cautious. As it turns out, they didn't know, but if they did, it would have been a huge oversight on their part if they just blindly believed her. I've never felt like there was some overarching huge trust revelation for them to learn from the Daniel incident - he was a danger to himself and everyone involved. Now should they have continued to look for an answer? Yes. Should they have locked him up? Double yes! In Sam's case she was compromised. Regardless of whether or not her sanity was in question, anything they told her could potentially be used against them.

What about when Teal'c was brainwashed by Apophis? That landed them into all sorts of problems. Trust doesn't mean blind faith. It's one thing to rely on someone to get your six, but it's something else to put everyone else in potential danger by blabbing everything to the person who's been compromised (at this point they didn't know Orlin was harmless, for all they knew he was here to wipe the human race from existence).

Edit: Perhaps it shows better judgment that Simmons had secret surveillance on her because *he* seemed to realize something else was going on. Yes, the guy was a baddie, but in this case, I'm not so sure this isn't an example of SG-1 being compromised by their long-standing relationship.

Edit edit: :: looks at pictures Amanda posted and drools ::

[yessika]

Happy Birthday Sally!!!!!!!!!!