Sam Carter /Jack O'Neill Ship Appreciation Thread 2.0

[Artie]

And I'd add that, in so doing, I think she actually becomes a better commander than Jack. But then again, she also learned from Hammond and Daniel and Teal'c and a whole lot of other folks... And as her primary mentor, I suspect Jack sees this and, frankly, is rather proud of the fact .

I think that's a really good point! I think she does turn out to be better, and I think he is immensely proud of her, and proud that her career will ultimately outshine his.

[Akamaimom]

Which is the main point of my Being There because I think Jack's journey to the end of S8 was just as important as Sam's - He had to get to the point where he was losing both his professional relationship and any hope of a closer personal one with Sam to realize he was losing her anyway and that he had to take a chance or he would continue to be miserable and suffer her loss even though he had never really even had her.

And I also think that he had to be shown that other people noticed his preoccupation with Sam. I wonder if he thought that he was doing a fine job hiding it--his "She's a valuable member of my team" comment in Entity is one of those moments when I think that he thinks that he's hiding things. . .Hammond doesn't buy it for a moment (I think that Hammond suspects. . .or knows, more likely. . .that there's MORE there. . .)

Having Kerry Johnson tell him that it's obvious, I feel, is a turning point for him. He realizes that he's not fooling anyone. She could have been good for him--but she had to be the one to tell him that he's being foolish, and I think that makes a difference for him. The proverbial shippy straw.

[JenniferJF]

Having Kerry Johnson tell him that it's obvious, I feel, is a turning point for him. He realizes that he's not fooling anyone. She could have been good for him--but she had to be the one to tell him that he's being foolish, and I think that makes a difference for him. The proverbial shippy straw.

I have to disagree with this. I think after he saw Sam standing on his deck and he realized what she was trying to tell him - that she was miserable and that she needed him to act - his eventual decision was virtually inevitable. I think his reaction to Kerry was simply rueful irony that it had taken him so long to realize what had been so obvious to Kerry - that he was in love with Sam and she with him and that they needed to be together and no one else could properly take Sam's place in his life and heart. I also think a large part of his pensiveness at the beginning of the scene in his office with Kerry was because Jack really is essentially a gentleman and he really didn't know what to do about Kerry; he's not the sort to simply shrug her off heartlessly, and so part of his reaction to Kerry's words was relief that at least he didn't have to worry about hurting her anymore. In effect, I think shortly after Sam left his back deck Jack knew what he had to do. He just had to figure out *how* to do it - to break things off with Kerry and to let Sam know he still loved her and wanted to be there for her and how to go about making a relationship between them possible. And I think his final reaction to that scene was that, with the Kerry problem out of the way, Jack was left facing the realization he was about to take a huge chance and risk everything and change everything - both personally and professionally - to finally really be there for Sam the way he by then understood she needed him to be.

At least, that's how I see it

[Akamaimom]

I have to disagree with this. I think after he saw Sam standing on his deck and he realized what she was trying to tell him - that she was miserable and that she needed him to act - his eventual decision was virtually inevitable. I think his reaction to Kerry was simply rueful irony that it had taken him so long to realize what had been so obvious to Kerry - that he was in love with Sam and she with him and that they needed to be together and no one else could properly take Sam's place in his life and heart. I also think a large part of his pensiveness at the beginning of the scene in his office with Kerry was because Jack really is essentially a gentleman and he really didn't know what to do about Kerry; he's not the sort to simply shrug her off heartlessly, and so part of his reaction to Kerry's words was relief that at least he didn't have to worry about hurting her anymore. In effect, I think shortly after Sam left his back deck Jack knew what he had to do. He just had to figure out *how* to do it - to break things off with Kerry and to let Sam know he still loved her and wanted to be there for her and how to go about making a relationship between them possible. And I think his final reaction to that scene was that, with the Kerry problem out of the way, Jack was left facing the realization he was about to take a huge chance and risk everything and change everything - both personally and professionally - to finally really be there for Sam the way he by then understood she needed him to be.

And I don't think that the two points are mutually exclusive. His "Why?" after the "second thoughts about the wedding" comment on the deck is so heartfelt--as if he's really questioning his own actions rather than hers--wondering if he was wrong when he'd thought that someone else would be better for her than he would be. ( It kind of mirrors the "What?" that the alternate timeline gives in Moebius when Sam says she's interested in Daniel. Asking how he could have been so wrong. . .) Kerry's not-so-gentle-nudge is only the final catalyst for his doing what he's been dreading doing---finally taking that last un-take-back-able step in doing something about all that angst.

So, I think we're on the same path, just with different words. . .

[JenniferJF]

And I don't think that the two points are mutually exclusive. His "Why?" after the "second thoughts about the wedding" comment on the deck is so heartfelt--as if he's really questioning his own actions rather than hers--wondering if he was wrong when he'd thought that someone else would be better for her than he would be. ( It kind of mirrors the "What?" that the alternate timeline gives in Moebius when Sam says she's interested in Daniel. Asking how he could have been so wrong. . .) Kerry's not-so-gentle-nudge is only the final catalyst for his doing what he's been dreading doing---finally taking that last un-take-back-able step in doing something about all that angst.

So, I think we're on the same path, just with different words. . .

Yes, because I do agree that Kerry also helped crystallize his thoughts into action. I do think he was rather spinning his wheels a bit there at the beginning of the scene and Kerry's simple directness cut through a lot of that to bring the question down to it's simplest point: Do you love her? Does she love you? And what's more important than that?

I also think her comment about his retiring made it clear to him, too, that despite everything, he's not really *essential* to the Stargate program despite what the Pentagon thinks and that, whether they'd want to or not, he is, in fact, replaceable. It's only in his personal life that he isn't.

So I do agree Kerry's words helped him reach the final activation energy on his thought process to initiate actions he was truly dreading (not.. you know... being with Sam but the whole CHANGE and RISK which is scary for anyone no matter how much you realize it's necessary) even if I think the inevitable conclusion to his thoughts was inevitable. Kerry just got him there faster.

[Akamaimom]

even if I think the inevitable conclusion to his thoughts was inevitable. Kerry just got him there faster.

Yes. Hence my thought all along that Kerry was good for him. Just like I think that Pete was (**Gasp**) good for Sam.

[JenniferJF]

Yes. Hence my thought all along that Kerry was good for him. Just like I think that Pete was (**Gasp**) good for Sam.

Oh, totally. Before S7 and Grace, I think Sam and Jack were both sitting on the fence, as it were, emotionally. They were unwilling to risk pursuing a more personal relationship with all that that would entail (and the importance of the regs here, IMHO, were that they meant *everything* had to be risked in order to 'date' - they'd have to move to separate teams and lose their professional relationship in order to pursue a personal one, which is far more than the friendship risked when 'friends' realize they might have something more) yet hadn't yet realized that the fence wasn't a long-term option; there could be no real happiness there. In Grace Sam realizes she can't stay on that fence, but rather than risk the "Jack" side, she goes the other way. And I think Jack, equally afraid, lets her and goes there himself.

It's only after they experience the 'wrong' side of the fence that they realize which side they really need to be on.

So, as you say, Pete and Kerry turn out to be necessary to overcome Sam and Jack's fear of the implications and risks in having a relationship together.

/buries fence metaphor having just beaten it to death

[Akamaimom]

/buries fence metaphor having just beaten it to death

With a fence post??? ha ha.

And yes--to all of the above. See? I told you we were really agreeing. . .

[yessika]

With a fence post??? ha ha.

And yes--to all of the above. See? I told you we were really agreeing. . .

[Pol]

Wow, Jen and Sharon. Wow.

I've been a bit busy the past few days and pop in to find this fantastic discussion of Jack's motivation and the whole Kerry cutting him loose stuff. Great discussion, thank you both.

A side note on the indiscriminate use of "squee's"

Spoiler:

I participate in several other online forums; writer things, fan things, etc.... This morning an email popped into my box and the subject line was simply, "SQUEEEEE!" My heart gave a little jolt and I eagerly clicked, expecting to find some fantastic Sam/Jack confirmation news. Whyever else would anyone squee, yes?

Sadly...no.

It was a note about a different (but entirely squee-worthy) event.

::: sigh:::

Stray squee's are not good for the ol' ticker, I tell ya!

This afternoon's fun project (after the not-so-fun things) is to finish the 100 Days Campfire. Angst lovers...gird yer loins!

[Akamaimom]

Wow, Jen and Sharon. Wow.

I've been a bit busy the past few days and pop in to find this fantastic discussion of Jack's motivation and the whole Kerry cutting him loose stuff. Great discussion, thank you both.

A side note on the indiscriminate use of "squee's"
Spoiler:
I participate in several other online forums; writer things, fan things, etc.... This morning an email popped into my box and the subject line was simply, "SQUEEEEE!" My heart gave a little jolt and I eagerly clicked, expecting to find some fantastic Sam/Jack confirmation news. Whyever else would anyone squee, yes?

Sadly...no.

It was a note about a different (but entirely squee-worthy) event.

::: sigh:::

Stray squee's are not good for the ol' ticker, I tell ya!


This afternoon's fun project (after the not-so-fun things) is to finish the 100 Days Campfire. Angst lovers...gird yer loins!

Consider them girded. . .

And I've been waiting for the perfect moment for Glinda to use that phrase! I can't wait!

And it's fun to have these convos with Jenn--I think that she is able to force me to the point of an issue better than anyone else. She's very well thought out in her responses and I really appreciate that. Kudos to someone who has thought this out WAYY past the squee stage.

And random squeeing? I thought that only happened with age (and after you sneeze or laugh too hard )

[JenniferJF]

And random squeeing? I thought that only happened with age (and after you sneeze or laugh too hard )

ROFL.

*ahem*

I have no idea what you're talking about.

[Akamaimom]

ROFL.

*ahem*

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Ba bum bum CHH!

I'll be here until Thursday. . .

[Fluffy17]

Yes. Hence my thought all along that Kerry was good for him. Just like I think that Pete was (**Gasp**) good for Sam.

Imagine if Kerry hadn't given a big nudge - no hug - no "always", no rubbing of thumb - no fishing

[Akamaimom]

Imagine if Kerry hadn't given a big nudge - no hug - no "always", no rubbing of thumb - no fishing

I think it eventually would have happened--and maybe there was a little catalyst in Jacob dying, too. In that Jack might have started contemplating his own mortality--but it would have happened. They just would have been too old by then to do anything about it.