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Sam Carter /Jack O'Neill Ship Appreciation Thread 2.0

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    Originally posted by JenniferJF View Post
    I agree that Grace is Sam's simple and direct subconscious. I also think part of why Grace is a small child is because Sam has to lose all the preconceptions and adult 'roles' which aren't natural (this is the Grace as Sam's inner child concept).

    I also think each of the 'guys' is simple because each of them (with the exception of Jacob) is one aspect of who Sam is - a role she assumes which isn't the true core of who she is. (Daniel = scientist, Teal'c = soldier, Jack = personal life) with Jacob being another representation of Grace - Sam's subconscious, but the more executive function of it. So I think Grace actually represents a lot of things (which is the beauty of analogy): Grace as an adjective (technically a noun) refers to the person Sam can be if she throws off the roles as separate functions and accepts who she really *is* (elegance and beauty of movement, form, expression, or proportion) , Grace as a child representing the personal life Sam feels she is giving up with all these other roles (this is the Grace as Sam's child idea), and Grace as salvation from the path of destruction of true self she is on in not embracing all of whom she is.

    Because, IMHO of course, ultimately the "I'm Grace" means she is, really, a special opportunity and chance, a Grace: unmerited divine assistance given humans for their regeneration or sanctification (from Mirriam Webster) for Sam to save herself from destruction.

    What's really interesting, IMHO, about the idea of Grace as salvation (which is the oldest and archaic form used in such expressions as 'grace period') is that there's a brilliant double meaning in the episode, because Sam is granted grace not simply physically - a period of time in which she is safe and alone to work out her physical salvation - but emotionally as well - a period of time in which to get in touch with her subconscious in order to work out her psychological salvation. And tragically, where she succeeds in the former she fails (initially) at the latter. Because Grace not only leads her to the solution for her physical crisis but, ultimately, her emotional one as well.
    And it is Jack that tells her to accept that 'Grace', that salvation and gives her the confidence that she can do most anything.
    He says it in the episode - O'NEILL: Go save your ass. But he has said it in word and action for 7 years.
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      Very interesting! Sam has two problems to solve in Grace - the Prometheus (named after the man who brings fire to mankind) is stuck in the gas cloud and Sam is stuck loving a man (who brings a certain amount of fire to her life) whom she cannot have (unless one of them moves professionally)

      We have Jack saying " Maybe it's not me that's the problem here. Let's face it, I'm not that complex. " - More simplicity - he knows what he wants but isn't sure she does. But he won't ask her to move and she seems afraid to (and doesn't follow Daniel's cloud advice and talk to him - I don't know where Teal'c's paranoia fits in)

      But Sam, responding to her dilemma of wanting a fuller life, is that she goes for the simplest answer and throws the baby out with the bathwater.
      Instead of pulling their relationship out of the miasma (cloud) she jumps ship and trots off with Pete (alien ship). When Sam finally see things clearly she beams back aboard, gets out of the cloud, freeing Pete as well who flys off never to be heard from again. And Sam and Jack live happily ever after.
      And shall I iterate here that the alien ship (like Pete) followed her to and then chased her into the miasma? The ship stalked her, too. (Tee hee hee hee)

      And Sam herself had to disentangle herself from the cloud, the alien ship, and Pete.

      Interesting analogy.
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        Originally posted by Zoser View Post
        We have Jack saying " Maybe it's not me that's the problem here. Let's face it, I'm not that complex. " - More simplicity - he knows what he wants but isn't sure she does. But he won't ask her to move and she seems afraid to (and doesn't follow Daniel's cloud advice and talk to him - I don't know where Teal'c's paranoia fits in)
        Yes to everything you said except for the bit here. Because it's not reallly *Jack* talking but Sam's perception/subconscious portrayal of him. The conversation immediately preceding this is:

        Spoiler:
        CARTER
        Came to give me a pep talk?
        O'NEILL
        It's what friends are for.
        CARTER
        Friends.
        O'NEILL
        Hey, this is you talking here. Might as well be honest.
        CARTER
        What if I quit the air force? Would that change anything or is it just an excuse?
        O'NEILL
        I would never ask you to give up your career.
        CARTER
        Because you don't feel anything for me?
        O'NEILL
        Carter?
        CARTER
        I'd let you go right now if I knew.
        O'NEILL
        That easy?
        CARTER
        I didn't say it would be easy.
        O'NEILL
        Then what's stopping you? If you really want to know.
        CARTER
        I'm trying.
        I think the point of this conversation is that it's the first real open acknowledgement that Sam isn't avoiding getting together with Jack because of the regulations - if she was certain he really loved her, she would quite the Air Force. The next question, "Because you don't feel anything for me?" I think gets closer to the heart of the matter - she is afraid he no longer loves her (which is part of the evidence I go by in believing, by this point, Sam really doesn't know that he still loves her). And then he asks her why she hasn't just asked him (which I assume, based on the last question, means ask him if he still loves her) so that she can find out and move on if he doesn't.

        I think, then, his statement about not being that complex is *Sam's* perception of Jack's being not that complex - or, more accurately, her *fear* that he isn't complex. That what she's seen on the surface most of the time for the last three years - professional detachment and friendship - is all he feels about her. Because, you see, maybe he's not that complex and there aren't hidden levels.

        Which *we* know isn't true, of course. But we've seen things Sam hasn't seen. So, in that statement, I think we really get to the heart of Sam's fear - that 'what she sees is what she gets' and Jack sees her simply as a friend and comrade now. That he no longer cares 'more than he's supposed to'. And I think the next bit of the conversation, about Sam being afraid of losing everyone she loves, gets to the heart of why she's unwilling to take a chance and find out if 'they' can work - she loves him, and, at this point in time, is unwilling to risk the relationship they do have for the full loving relationship they might have.

        And that's why the kiss is so brilliant, because we have this very cerebral psychologically deep conversation going on.... And then see that, ultimately, beyond all the complexities and arguments is the simple truth that she is in love - and deeply in lust - with this man.

        Which is, of course, the truth that bites them all in the proverbial buttocks in Threads when she realizes she can't settle for other than Jack and be happy and complete. Only by then the tension and stress has almost destroyed the relationship they did have and they both have relatively little left to lose.

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          Originally posted by Zoser View Post
          And it is Jack that tells her to accept that 'Grace', that salvation and gives her the confidence that she can do most anything.
          He says it in the episode - O'NEILL: Go save your ass. But he has said it in word and action for 7 years.
          Because even delusional bump-on-the-head Sam knows at her deepest and most instinctive level that Jack is on her side and just having him there keeps her going. It did back in Solitudes, and it still does now even when she really is all alone.

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            Originally posted by Akamaimom View Post
            And shall I iterate here that the alien ship (like Pete) followed her to and then chased her into the miasma? The ship stalked her, too. (Tee hee hee hee)

            And Sam herself had to disentangle herself from the cloud, the alien ship, and Pete.

            Interesting analogy.
            very interesting. I've never thought about it this way.
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              LOL! That gif Jenn is hysterical. I'd never realized there were those flirty looks between them.

              I'm getting the big chunk of space when I quote someone. I'm not quoting anyone with this post, so lets see if that big chunk of space appears this time.

              Edit: Nope. I bet that chunk of space happens when a post is quoted. It's really annoying.

              Even though the Grace thing has been done to death, Jenn, I really enjoyed your interpretation of the true meaning behind the dialogue and absolutely agree with it.
              Last edited by leiasky; 11 March 2010, 08:16 AM.
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                Originally posted by JenniferJF View Post
                Yes to everything you said except for the bit here. Because it's not reallly *Jack* talking but Sam's perception/subconscious portrayal of him. The conversation immediately preceding this is:

                Spoiler:
                CARTER
                Came to give me a pep talk?
                O'NEILL
                It's what friends are for.
                CARTER
                Friends.
                O'NEILL
                Hey, this is you talking here. Might as well be honest.
                CARTER
                What if I quit the air force? Would that change anything or is it just an excuse?

                O'NEILL
                I would never ask you to give up your career.
                CARTER
                Because you don't feel anything for me?
                O'NEILL
                Carter?
                CARTER
                I'd let you go right now if I knew.
                O'NEILL
                That easy?
                CARTER
                I didn't say it would be easy.
                O'NEILL
                Then what's stopping you? If you really want to know.
                CARTER
                I'm trying.
                I think the point of this conversation is that it's the first real open acknowledgement that Sam isn't avoiding getting together with Jack because of the regulations - if she was certain he really loved her, she would quite the Air Force. The next question, "Because you don't feel anything for me?" I think gets closer to the heart of the matter - she is afraid he no longer loves her (which is part of the evidence I go by in believing, by this point, Sam really doesn't know that he still loves her). And then he asks her why she hasn't just asked him (which I assume, based on the last question, means ask him if he still loves her) so that she can find out and move on if he doesn't.

                I think, then, his statement about not being that complex is *Sam's* perception of Jack's being not that complex - or, more accurately, her *fear* that he isn't complex. That what she's seen on the surface most of the time for the last three years - professional detachment and friendship - is all he feels about her. Because, you see, maybe he's not that complex and there aren't hidden levels.

                Which *we* know isn't true, of course. But we've seen things Sam hasn't seen. So, in that statement, I think we really get to the heart of Sam's fear - that 'what she sees is what she gets' and Jack sees her simply as a friend and comrade now. That he no longer cares 'more than he's supposed to'. And I think the next bit of the conversation, about Sam being afraid of losing everyone she loves, gets to the heart of why she's unwilling to take a chance and find out if 'they' can work - she loves him, and, at this point in time, is unwilling to risk the relationship they do have for the full loving relationship they might have.

                And that's why the kiss is so brilliant, because we have this very cerebral psychologically deep conversation going on.... And then see that, ultimately, beyond all the complexities and arguments is the simple truth that she is in love - and deeply in lust - with this man.

                Which is, of course, the truth that bites them all in the proverbial buttocks in Threads when she realizes she can't settle for other than Jack and be happy and complete. Only by then the tension and stress has almost destroyed the relationship they did have and they both have relatively little left to lose.
                I was just trying to compare Sam and Jack's relationship to the plot of Grace but...

                CARTER
                What if I quit the air force? Would that change anything or is it just an excuse?

                And as you said Sam is in fact talking to herself and wondering if it is her excuse too for not getting a life and afraid that it might not change anything.
                She knows Jack respects her professionally and would not ask her to give up her career.
                O'NEILL
                I would never ask you to give up your career.
                But I wonder if she thinks she must choose one or the other - career or Jack.




                Thanks Mala

                And yes Sam has missed a lot but these are from Evolution.
                If she doesn't know this man has feelings for her I fear for her sanity!
                But she is a scientist and Sam needs certainty.
                So I guess Jack is the control and Pete is the variable in this experiment.
                Maybe she needs too to know if she loves Jack enough to risk everything.
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                  Saw some grace talk..and you know me..


                  Love the talk; but a bit too deep atm for me so I just read and cheer y'all on like a cheerleader!
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                    Saw some grace talk..and you know me..
                    Yes! And I appreciate it! Yum. Slow. MMMMM.
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                      Originally posted by JenniferJF View Post
                      Sorry for the double post, but AstraPerAspera posted a new story, Threshold.

                      Yes, that's right. Fluff and gutter. Virtually no angst.

                      Amazing, no?
                      Yes, yes it is.

                      Originally posted by JenniferJF View Post
                      You probably know this from writing yourself, but there are often things you do which aren't intentional, but when you look back you realize they had hidden meaning beyond the surface you yourself weren't necessarily aware of. It just seemed right and natural at the time you wrote it. So - IMHO of course - simply because the artist wasn't aware of the whole meaning himself or herself doesn't mean it's not there. That's partly why it's art and not science - the instinct for what to do to is as important as the technique.

                      EDIT: This also, of course, doesn't mean sometimes it's not absolutely intentional. Just that sometimes it's not and still a valid interpretation.
                      Oh man. All the time! I'm tellin' you, Cags thinks I'm *deep* and I'm so not! She's always pulling out subtle hints of this and that from my stories and I'm always thinking, "wow...really?"

                      LOL

                      Edit: LOL at Jenn's gif! Now I have to go torture my students and give 'em a mid-term. Later!
                      Pol My Blog | My Fanfic | My FaceBook__ Sam: "Jack...please."

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                        Originally posted by starlover View Post
                        Saw some grace talk..and you know me..



                        Thank you starlover!!
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                          I was bored, so I tried some of the other threads.

                          I got scared, so I came back.

                          Ah!!! Home. Where it's nice and comfy, and people understand you!

                          **happy sigh**
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                            Originally posted by Akamaimom View Post
                            I was bored, so I tried some of the other threads.

                            I got scared, so I came back.

                            Ah!!! Home. Where it's nice and comfy, and people understand you!

                            **happy sigh**


                            ...it's a wild world

                            *hugs*
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                              Originally posted by Akamaimom View Post
                              I was bored, so I tried some of the other threads.

                              I got scared, so I came back.

                              Ah!!! Home. Where it's nice and comfy, and people understand you!

                              **happy sigh**
                              *nods* Although I do have some other threads too...

                              *huggles her homies*
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                                Originally posted by starlover View Post
                                *nods* Although I do have some other threads too...

                                *huggles her homies*
                                Me too, but this one is special and I will always be coming back here
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