Sam Carter /Jack O'Neill Ship Appreciation Thread 2.0

[Treknik]

You know--about this whole Who is Grace? thing (shades of Ayn Rand--Who is John Galt?)--I was thinking the other day about the line that Sam says to Jack once--that he has the ability to see things at their "simplest" (in reaction to her having the ability to pull brilliant ideas out of her. . .head). Perhaps that shot is the director's way of saying that Grace is actually Sam at her simplest--"Look at things through a child's eye."

Grace does sort of whittle things down to their most basic point. So perhaps she's subconscious Sam--the part that doesn't think too much. If you really think about it, all of her delusions are really kind of acting simply--like children. Daniel, with his "talk to the cloud", Teal'c and "if you sleep, you will die", and even Jacob telling her to just "be happy". So Grace is Grace--salvation--wrapped up in childlike characteristics. Religiously, the concept of Grace is simple--the caring result of parent making up the difference for child-like effort--and this still fits into that symbolic mien, too. That Sam, by seeing things as their simplest, can then make a more adult jump from all that advice into her own salvation.

Too long a leap?

No, I don't think it is too long a leap. I like how you think.

I know that there has been discussion on who Grace is, and I believe in the commentary for the episode they said the inner child. I can't remember who said it and I know someone here will help me out on this. But now trying to focus on what the director was trying to tell us through the eyes of the camera and how the writer's wrote the episode, for me, it leans more toward Sam's possible daughter. And of course with Jack, since most of the time when there was a personal question brought up about Sam, the director cut to shots with Jack which created a relationship between the two. It does help that the girl looked like a combination of Sam and Jack too.

Using the words of Daniel Jackson - What do you think?

[JenniferJF]

Grace does sort of whittle things down to their most basic point. So perhaps she's subconscious Sam--the part that doesn't think too much. If you really think about it, all of her delusions are really kind of acting simply--like children. Daniel, with his "talk to the cloud", Teal'c and "if you sleep, you will die", and even Jacob telling her to just "be happy". So Grace is Grace--salvation--wrapped up in childlike characteristics. Religiously, the concept of Grace is simple--the caring result of parent making up the difference for child-like effort--and this still fits into that symbolic mien, too. That Sam, by seeing things as their simplest, can then make a more adult jump from all that advice into her own salvation.

I agree that Grace is Sam's simple and direct subconscious. I also think part of why Grace is a small child is because Sam has to lose all the preconceptions and adult 'roles' which aren't natural (this is the Grace as Sam's inner child concept).

I also think each of the 'guys' is simple because each of them (with the exception of Jacob) is one aspect of who Sam is - a role she assumes which isn't the true core of who she is. (Daniel = scientist, Teal'c = soldier, Jack = personal life) with Jacob being another representation of Grace - Sam's subconscious, but the more executive function of it. So I think Grace actually represents a lot of things (which is the beauty of analogy): Grace as an adjective (technically a noun) refers to the person Sam can be if she throws off the roles as separate functions and accepts who she really *is* (elegance and beauty of movement, form, expression, or proportion) , Grace as a child representing the personal life Sam feels she is giving up with all these other roles (this is the Grace as Sam's child idea), and Grace as salvation from the path of destruction of true self she is on in not embracing all of whom she is.

Because, IMHO of course, ultimately the "I'm Grace" means she is, really, a special opportunity and chance, a Grace: unmerited divine assistance given humans for their regeneration or sanctification (from Mirriam Webster) for Sam to save herself from destruction.

What's really interesting, IMHO, about the idea of Grace as salvation (which is the oldest and archaic form used in such expressions as 'grace period') is that there's a brilliant double meaning in the episode, because Sam is granted grace not simply physically - a period of time in which she is safe and alone to work out her physical salvation - but emotionally as well - a period of time in which to get in touch with her subconscious in order to work out her psychological salvation. And tragically, where she succeeds in the former she fails (initially) at the latter. Because Grace not only leads her to the solution for her physical crisis but, ultimately, her emotional one as well.

[Akamaimom]

No, I don't think it is too long a leap. I like how you think.

I know that there has been discussion on who Grace is, and I believe in the commentary for the episode they said the inner child. I can't remember who said it and I know someone here will help me out on this. But now trying to focus on what the director was trying to tell us through the eyes of the camera and how the writer's wrote the episode, for me, it leans more toward Sam's possible daughter. And of course with Jack, since most of the time when there was a personal question brought up about Sam, the director cut to shots with Jack which created a relationship between the two. It does help that the girl looked like a combination of Sam and Jack too.

Using the words of Daniel Jackson - What do you think?

I agree that Grace is Sam's simple and direct subconscious. I also think part of why Grace is a small child is because Sam has to lose all the preconceptions and adult 'roles' which aren't natural.

I also think each of the 'guys' is simple because each of them (with the exception of Jacob) is one aspect of who Sam is - a role she assumes which isn't the true core of who she is. (Daniel = scientist, Teal'c = soldier, Jack = personal life) with Jacob being another representation of Grace - Sam's subconscious, but the more executive function of it. So I think Grace actually represents a lot of things (which is the beauty of analogy): Grace as an adjective (technically a noun) refers to the person Sam can be if she throws off the roles as separate functions and accepts who she really *is* (elegance and beauty of movement, form, expression, or proportion) , Grace as a child representating the personal life Sam feels she is giving up with all these other roles, and Grace as salvation from the path of destruction of true self she is on in not embracing all of whom she is.

Because, IMHO of course, ultimately the "I'm Grace" means she is, really, a special opportunity and chance, a Grace: unmerited divine assistance given humans for their regeneration or sanctification (from Mirriam Webster)

What's really interesting, IMHO, about the idea of Grace as salvation (which is the oldest and archaic form used in such expressions as 'grace period') is that there's a brilliant double meaning in the episode, because Sam is granted grace not simply physically - a period of time in which she is safe and alone to work out her physical salvation - but emotionally as well - a period of time in which to get in touch with her subconscious in order to work out her psychological salvation. And tragically, where she succeeds in the former she fails (initially) at the latter. Because Grace not only leads her to the solution for her physical crisis but, ultimately, her emotional one as well.

Yes.

And wouldn't it be funny if the writers just thought it would be funny to use their nieces's name and rolled the dice to decide if it would be a) a computer talking to her, b) her dead mother coming back, or c) the kid? If the whole concept of having the child named Grace be her salvation was literally a fluke? I always wonder about things like that--although I believe that the writers were purposeful in their portrayal in this case--but I find it fascinating that people write treatises on these things. And that we think about them as we do.

[Treknik]

I agree that Grace is Sam's simple and direct subconscious. I also think part of why Grace is a small child is because Sam has to lose all the preconceptions and adult 'roles' which aren't natural (this is the Grace as Sam's inner child concept).

I also think each of the 'guys' is simple because each of them (with the exception of Jacob) is one aspect of who Sam is - a role she assumes which isn't the true core of who she is. (Daniel = scientist, Teal'c = soldier, Jack = personal life) with Jacob being another representation of Grace - Sam's subconscious, but the more executive function of it. So I think Grace actually represents a lot of things (which is the beauty of analogy): Grace as an adjective (technically a noun) refers to the person Sam can be if she throws off the roles as separate functions and accepts who she really *is* (elegance and beauty of movement, form, expression, or proportion) , Grace as a child representing the personal life Sam feels she is giving up with all these other roles (this is the Grace as Sam's child idea), and Grace as salvation from the path of destruction of true self she is on in not embracing all of whom she is.

Because, IMHO of course, ultimately the "I'm Grace" means she is, really, a special opportunity and chance, a Grace: unmerited divine assistance given humans for their regeneration or sanctification (from Mirriam Webster)

What's really interesting, IMHO, about the idea of Grace as salvation (which is the oldest and archaic form used in such expressions as 'grace period') is that there's a brilliant double meaning in the episode, because Sam is granted grace not simply physically - a period of time in which she is safe and alone to work out her physical salvation - but emotionally as well - a period of time in which to get in touch with her subconscious in order to work out her psychological salvation. And tragically, where she succeeds in the former she fails (initially) at the latter. Because Grace not only leads her to the solution for her physical crisis but, ultimately, her emotional one as well.

Excellent analysis, Jenn.

The role of her team and her father was a huge problem for me. For one, Teal'c calls her Major Carter at one point and then Samantha in another, so understanding the soldier role, I was confused on why he would call her Samantha. But then I thought, being Major Carter and Samantha is who she is and that she can be a woman while being a soldier.

Thanks for putting it in the "simplest" form so that I could understand it better. Maybe I have more of a similarity to Jack than I thought.

Sharon, I believe the writers actually thought hard on that name because of the many links that Jenn has provided. The play on the word is perfect for the episode.

[Akamaimom]

Sharon, I believe the writers actually thought hard on that name because of the many links that Jenn has provided. The play on the word is perfect for the episode.

I think so, too. I was just thinking about some of the stuff I had to read in college and how the authors would just say--it's a story!--but we'd analyze the crap out of it. I think that this is completely intentional--but I always do wonder. . .

[JenniferJF]

Sharon, I believe the writers actually thought hard on that name because of the many links that Jenn has provided. The play on the word is perfect for the episode.

Deliberate. Intentional.

If for no other reason than it's Damian Kindler. And he's that good. Once might be a fluke, multiple instances proves the artist.

/fangurl moment

[Akamaimom]

Deliberate. Intentional.

If for no other reason than it's Damian Kindler. And he's that good. Once might be a fluke, multiple instances proves the artist.

/fangurl moment

Absolutely on all counts--and Martin Wood, too.

[JenniferJF]

I think so, too. I was just thinking about some of the stuff I had to read in college and how the authors would just say--it's a story!--but we'd analyze the crap out of it. I think that this is completely intentional--but I always do wonder. . .

You probably know this from writing yourself, but there are often things you do which aren't intentional, but when you look back you realize they had hidden meaning beyond the surface you yourself weren't necessarily aware of. It just seemed right and natural at the time you wrote it. So - IMHO of course - simply because the artist wasn't aware of the whole meaning himself or herself doesn't mean it's not there. That's partly why it's art and not science - the instinct for what to do to is as important as the technique.

EDIT: This also, of course, doesn't mean sometimes it's not absolutely intentional. Just that sometimes it's not and still a valid interpretation.

[Treknik]

Deliberate. Intentional.

If for no other reason than it's Damian Kindler. And he's that good. Once might be a fluke, multiple instances proves the artist.

/fangurl moment

I will join in your fangurl moment, because he is an excellent writer.

Absolutely on all counts--and Martin Wood, too.

MW is an absolute awesome director. Grace was directed by Peter Woeste though. So kudos to him for this epsiode.

I know that MW is directing Sanctuary now, but what of DK? Does he still write for Stargate? I am ignorant on who directs or writes these episodes or still is in Stargate.

Those two would definitely be great for Sam and Jack in the present or future.

[JenniferJF]

I will join in your fangurl moment, because he is an excellent writer.



MW is an absolute awesome director. Grace was directed by Peter Woeste though. So kudos to him for this epsiode.

I know that MW is directing Sanctuary now, but what of DK? Does he still write for Stargate? I am ignorant on who directs or writes these episodes or still is in Stargate.

Those two would definitely be great for Sam and Jack in the present or future.

Damian Kindler is the creator and show runner for Sanctuary. Which, as awesome as AT and MW are, is the primary reason it's uberly awesome. Because without a strong foundation, the directing and acting can only drag it up so far.

EDIT: Which doesn't answer your question completely, but the real answer is, at this very moment, he's probably sitting around somewhere writing scripts or working on scripts or editing scripts and if he's not he should get back to work

[Akamaimom]

MW is an absolute awesome director. Grace was directed by Peter Woeste though. So kudos to him for this epsiode.

Yeah, I knew Peter Woeste directed it, but Wood is more a shippy director--so I gave him credit for doing what we were talking about-attributing more meaning than there was initially.

Sorry--I've been up since before 4 am with a cranky/teething baby, so I'm a little flummoxed. I'm surprised I'm making any sense at all!

[JenniferJF]

Yeah, I knew Peter Woeste directed it, but Wood is more a shippy director--so I gave him credit for doing what we were talking about-attributing more meaning than there was initially.

Sorry--I've been up since before 4 am with a cranky/teething baby, so I'm a little flummoxed. I'm surprised I'm making any sense at all!

I knew what you meant

I was fangurling.

You were fangurling.

It's all good.

[Treknik]

I knew what you meant

I was fangurling.

You were fangurling.

It's all good.

Yep, all good. Hope you get some sleep, Sharon.

OT -
Jenn, I just checked my e-mail and the Michigan Today was there. I thought that was funny, since you posted a link to it. Did you go to UofM? My husband did, so that is why we get the e-mails.

[JenniferJF]

Yep, all good. Hope you get some sleep, Sharon.

OT -
Jenn, I just checked my e-mail and the Michigan Today was there. I thought that was funny, since you posted a link to it. Did you go to UofM? My husband did, so that is why we get the e-mails.

No, but APA did and as we often feel like lunatic fringe when we try to use how things were filmed to interpret what happened she sent it to me as proof we're at least not completely wacko.

[Zoser]

You know--about this whole Who is Grace? thing (shades of Ayn Rand--Who is John Galt?)--I was thinking the other day about the line that Sam says to Jack once--that he has the ability to see things at their "simplest" (in reaction to her having the ability to pull brilliant ideas out of her. . .head). Perhaps that shot is the director's way of saying that Grace is actually Sam at her simplest--"Look at things through a child's eye."

Grace does sort of whittle things down to their most basic point. So perhaps she's subconscious Sam--the part that doesn't think too much. If you really think about it, all of her delusions are really kind of acting simply--like children. Daniel, with his "talk to the cloud", Teal'c and "if you sleep, you will die", and even Jacob telling her to just "be happy". So Grace is Grace--salvation--wrapped up in childlike characteristics. Religiously, the concept of Grace is simple--the caring result of parent making up the difference for child-like effort--and this still fits into that symbolic mien, too. That Sam, by seeing things as their simplest, can then make a more adult jump from all that advice into her own salvation.

Too long a leap?

Very interesting! Sam has two problems to solve in Grace - the Prometheus (named after the man who brings fire to mankind) is stuck in the gas cloud and Sam is stuck loving a man (who brings a certain amount of fire to her life) whom she cannot have (unless one of them moves professionally)

We have Jack saying " Maybe it's not me that's the problem here. Let's face it, I'm not that complex. " - More simplicity - he knows what he wants but isn't sure she does. But he won't ask her to move and she seems afraid to (and doesn't follow Daniel's cloud advice and talk to him - I don't know where Teal'c's paranoia fits in)

But Sam, responding to her dilemma of wanting a fuller life, is that she goes for the simplest answer and throws the baby out with the bathwater.
Instead of pulling their relationship out of the miasma (cloud) she jumps ship and trots off with Pete (alien ship). When Sam finally see things clearly she beams back aboard, gets out of the cloud, freeing Pete as well who flys off never to be heard from again. And Sam and Jack live happily ever after.