Sam Carter /Jack O'Neill Ship Appreciation Thread 2.0

[hedwig]

Wow, Jack can't cut a break in here. Sounds like starting in season 5 Sam started doing the butterfly dance but Jack just kept ignoring her and finally shut her down.

It's been my observation in my time on this thread that it's been just as often (and maybe more often) that Sam "can't cut a break in here". The discussion seems to see-saw back and forth over who is more at fault - Jack or Sam. I'd say it's both, not just one of them, and not more one than the other.

As somebody else commented above, if one of them had just said "please wait for me", all the pain and so forth would not have happened (or, at least less of it would have happened). But then, would we have as much to talk about here had it happened that way?

Personally, I wouldn't have minded so much having them date other people occasionally along the way, so long as they still wound up together.

[JenniferJF]

The looks are the same! How can she not know how he feels for her. She knows.

See, I don't think she does. *we* see the 'love looks' but I don't think she does. He veils them when he looks at her. Until, you know... Threads

[Treknik]

See, I don't think she does. *we* see the 'love looks' but I don't think she does. He veils them when he looks at her. Until, you know... Threads

Are you telling me that she wasn't looking at him in that second pic? Because that face pretty much said everything. I see so much love and pain (that he can't be there for her and with her) in that look. He gave her that look in Evolution, so she has seen it before. She either knows or she is in denial.

[JackandSamAddict]

It's been my observation in my time on this thread that it's been just as often (and maybe more often) that Sam "can't cut a break in here". The discussion seems to see-saw back and forth over who is more at fault - Jack or Sam. I'd say it's both, not just one of them, and not more one than the other.

As somebody else commented above, if one of them had just said "please wait for me", all the pain and so forth would not have happened (or, at least less of it would have happened). But then, would we have as much to talk about here had it happened that way?

Personally, I wouldn't have minded so much having them date other people occasionally along the way, so long as they still wound up together.

I totally agree, I think some do like to blame one person to the other, when truthfully, they were both at fault, IMHO. She said she wanted to leave it in the room, and he agreed. Doesn't mean that they love each other less, it just means that they couldn't be together then. Of course, one could have retired, but like 'Jack' said in Grace he would never ask her to give up her career, and I don't think she could ever ask that of him, either.

It's like on 24 this season:

Spoiler:

When Renee asks Jack 'what do we do now' (about their relationship), and he says, 'we'll figure it out'.

If Jack and Sam had decided to be together after D&C they would have had some figuring out to do. Not that I would have minded, but it would have changed the show's dynamic, and I would hate to see something I love (our ship) ruin the show, as so many have ruined other shows before.

[JenniferJF]

You know we're never going to agree, on this , because I see Jack as being emotionally damaged by Charlie's death and unwilling to really take a chance on love and loss again until he realizes he was losing Sam in S8, at which point he was finally motivated to take a chance - a tragic hero with a flaw which works to prevent him from finding happiness, whereas I think you tend to believe it was the regulations which kept Sam and Jack apart, and that it was primarily Sam's lack of faith in moving on to Pete which kept them apart after S8, and Jack just went along being the non-predisposing hero he is. So, given the fact I think our two views of who Sam and Jack are are *essentially* different to the extent our Sam and Jack's barely even resemble each other, I still have to comment:

Wow, Jack can't cut a break in here. Sounds like starting in season 5 Sam started doing the butterfly dance but Jack just kept ignoring her and finally shut her down.

No, I think both Sam and Jack had deep-seeded psychological reasons based on their past experiences which left them willing to accept the simplistic answer that the regulations kept them apart. Jack took Sam's willingness to 'leave it in the room' as a sign she wasn't willing to give up their professional relationship to risk a personal one and wasn't going to push it beyond that, and his realization that he could lose her and how painful that would be caused him to continue to hide his feelings from her. Sam was the same way, being afraid from past experiences that love always resulted in painful loss instead of happiness, so to protect herself from loving and losing Jack she was also willing to 'settle' for simply a professional - a *safe* - relationship instead of trying for a personal one.

The relationship disconnect was two-sided.

Exactly. And simply because we're discussing what Jack did doesn't mean Sam didn't do things herself.

<clip>So... if she doesn't tell him flat out he's most probably not going to know it.

Exactly. Only.. in the end.. she didn't have to tell him flat out. I believe Jack figured it out from what Sam almost told him on his back deck in Threads, and once he realized Sam really did love him and *need* him and she really didn't want to 'leave it in the room' anymore, he went to her in Threads and they did figure out a way to be together, despite their mutual fears of loss. Because they were already suffering the pain of loss, really, so they had nothing left to fear.

Just because some of us feel Jack had a part in the problem doesn't mean we're laying 'all the blame' on Sam, and just because a conversation centers on Jack's issues doesn't mean Sam doesn't have them herself. Heck, I've written essays on Sam's issues And I've written fanfics from both Sam and Jack's POV during this time period trying to explain my thoughts on why *each* of them made the choices they did before Threads. I don't think it was either of their faults... But I think they *both* made choices which, even from good motivations, almost led to disaster. I mean Pete. I mean... is there a difference?

[JenniferJF]

Are you telling me that she wasn't looking at him in that second pic? Because that face pretty much said everything. I see so much love and pain (that he can't be there for her and with her) in that look. He gave her that look in Evolution, so she has seen it before. She either knows or she is in denial.

No, I don't actually think that second expression shows her everything. I actually think that one's hiding the full force of his feelings. It's different from his unguarded looks at her, and I really think she sees friendship and respect, and even a bit of flirtiness, but not the complete *love* she saw back in D&C.

And I think if she had seen it, at least there at the end of Grace, she was prepared to 'take it out of the room.' Only I think, in Grace, he'd gotten scared again about the possibilities of loving and losing her and so his defenses against her were - ironically - at full force at the very moment hers were gone.

But, again, all IMHO of course

[JenniferJF]

Someone else post....

But I don't wanna wait. Just got this back from my beta:

Being There: Cloaked.

[mad_gater]

You know we're never going to agree, on this , because I see Jack as being emotionally damaged by Charlie's death and unwilling to really take a chance on love and loss again until he realizes he was losing Sam in S8, at which point he was finally motivated to take a chance - a tragic hero with a flaw which works to prevent him from finding happiness, whereas I think you tend to believe it was the regulations which kept Sam and Jack apart, and that it was primarily Sam's lack of faith in moving on to Pete which kept them apart after S8, and Jack just went along being the non-predisposing hero he is. So, given the fact I think our two views of who Sam and Jack are are *essentially* different to the extent our Sam and Jack's barely even resemble each other, I still have to comment: No, I think both Sam and Jack had deep-seeded psychological reasons based on their past experiences which left them willing to accept the simplistic answer that the regulations kept them apart. Jack took Sam's willingness to 'leave it in the room' as a sign she wasn't willing to give up their professional relationship to risk a personal one and wasn't going to push it beyond that, and his realization that he could lose her and how painful that would be caused him to continue to hide his feelings from her. Sam was the same way, being afraid from past experiences that love always resulted in painful loss instead of happiness, so to protect herself from loving and losing Jack she was also willing to 'settle' for simply a professional - a *safe* - relationship instead of trying for a personal one.

Exactly. And simply because we're discussing what Jack did doesn't mean Sam didn't do things herself.
Exactly. Only.. in the end.. she didn't have to tell him flat out. I believe Jack figured it out from what Sam almost told him on his back deck in Threads, and once he realized Sam really did love him and *need* him and she really didn't want to 'leave it in the room' anymore, he went to her in Threads and they did figure out a way to be together, despite their mutual fears of loss. Because they were already suffering the pain of loss, really, so they had nothing left to fear.

Just because some of us feel Jack had a part in the problem doesn't mean we're laying 'all the blame' on Sam, and just because a conversation centers on Jack's issues doesn't mean Sam doesn't have them herself. Heck, I've written essays on Sam's issues And I've written fanfics from both Sam and Jack's POV during this time period trying to explain my thoughts on why *each* of them made the choices they did before Threads. I don't think it was either of their faults... But I think they *both* made choices which, even from good motivations, almost led to disaster. I mean Pete. I mean... is there a difference?

that's one way of thinkin' about it....

[Pol]

Interrupting this great discussion to share. I was sitting here watching the Olympics while reading all of your thoughtful comments when S came up behind me, rather stealthily. Suddenly a voice whispered in my ear, "Caught you."

"What?" I asked.

"Shipping."

I got a kiss on the top of my head and we both laughed.

I loved that I just got caught "shipping."!

[Pol]

My Einstein quote of the day came up today as,
"He who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead; his eyes are closed."

I immediately thought of this scene.





Not necessarily shippy unless you consider the--now cut--"Oh, I adore you already" bit, but still, these images capture the newness and wonder of it all for Sam.

How far she's come, eh? Just thought I'd share.

[Skydiver]

I think sam and jack, as we've seen, both have a rather messed up personal life. sam's relationships never work out well, jack's marriage ended...and i think both of them are too afraid to lose a friendship to risk it on a relationship.

they'd rather be kinda tense friends than to lose each other.

[JenniferJF]

I think sam and jack, as we've seen, both have a rather messed up personal life. sam's relationships never work out well, jack's marriage ended...and i think both of them are too afraid to lose a friendship to risk it on a relationship.

they'd rather be kinda tense friends than to lose each other.

Bizarrely, that's just what we were discussing on the Discussion Thread . So, yes. Until, IMHO, Threads when they realized they were pretty much losing their friendship anyway. If you subscribe to the theory that they did get together after Threads (which I do), that realization was one of the primary reasons.

It was even worse for them (as I said there) because they *really* had to make a choice to give up their professional working relationship if they were going to have a personal one, it wasn't a vague 'maybe' like it is for most couples but... in order to even explore the personal, they had to separate professionally first. That was a huge gamble to take, really, and given their track records and, combined with the fears of relationships I think they both had which you refer to, it was easier and safer to accept the status quo.

[hedwig]

No, I don't actually think that second expression shows her everything. I actually think that one's hiding the full force of his feelings. It's different from his unguarded looks at her, and I really think she sees friendship and respect, and even a bit of flirtiness, but not the complete *love* she saw back in D&C.

Isn't that second picture from "Entity" just after Jack zatted Sam the second time? If so, then she wouldn't have been able to see any look on his face, because she was essentially dead and not seeing anything; and thus also completely unaware of what the look said about what he was feeling. The look on his face is when he's looking at her laying there on the floor after he zatted her, and he's in shock over what just happened.

[JenniferJF]

Isn't that second picture from "Entity" just after Jack zatted Sam the second time? If so, then she wouldn't have been able to see any look on his face, because she was essentially dead and not seeing anything; and thus also completely unaware of what the look said about what he was feeling. The look on his face is when he's looking at her laying there on the floor after he zatted her, and he's in shock over what just happened.

I thought it was the look from the end of Grace when he's looking at her lying there. And his overall attitude with her there, as well as his expressions, are generally proud and friendly. There's a hint of something more which I think we can see because we *know* how desperate he was to find her earlier, but I don't think Sam sees it. She only sees the sort of awkward joking which I think enforces the idea he wants only the professional/friendship.

I will say, Trek, I think Evolution is pretty close to being as obvious in the way Jack feels as it was back in the beginning of S4 (upgrades/D&C) but that I think he pulls back enough in Grace that she takes the 'safe' option of Pete rather than let Jack know how she really feels.

[leiasky]

Olympics OT:

Spoiler:

Do I have to dodge tomatoes if I'm still rooting for the US to win? And if I think that Apolo Anton Ohno got ROBBED in the 500? They were all touching each other--from what I've seen (and I've never skated short track, so please be kind when you whack me. . .) they all should have been DQed if he was. . .

Spoiler:

I'll be rooting for the US to win anything they compete in. After that, I root for Canada. LOL!

yes--cool. Well, I believe I said before it was FREEZING. Pack a sweater (jumper--whatever). But it's one of the most singularly beautiful places I've ever seen. And I was able to find some decent chocolate there--to drag up a convo from WAY long ago on this thread!

I'm gonna be working there for a few weeks so I'm sure if I ask, the peeps I'm working with will show me around

It's been my observation in my time on this thread that it's been just as often (and maybe more often) that Sam "can't cut a break in here". The discussion seems to see-saw back and forth over who is more at fault - Jack or Sam. I'd say it's both, not just one of them, and not more one than the other.

As somebody else commented above, if one of them had just said "please wait for me", all the pain and so forth would not have happened (or, at least less of it would have happened). But then, would we have as much to talk about here had it happened that way?

Personally, I wouldn't have minded so much having them date other people occasionally along the way, so long as they still wound up together.

I left it all in because I totally agree. So I won't repeat it