Sam Carter /Jack O'Neill Ship Appreciation Thread 2.0

[SamJackShipper93]

Huggles and waves to everyone!

Ooh! So much to discuss! Forgive me as I basically ramble about 100 Days and Grace and Entity and Divide and Conquer ... also it's 1:00 in the morning so I apologize if things are incohernt! Thanks to RadicalDreamer and SaraBahama for spurring all of these thoughts!

It's been so long since I analyzed Jack and Sam! This felt really good! (Seriously I want to go to my graduate advisor and say, "Change of plans! I'm writing my master's thesis on the dynamics of a fictional sci-fi couple!" Easiest thesis ever!)

Warning: there's actually some Laira (gulp) appreciation below. Well maybe not appreciation, but at least justification.

I'm no fan of 100 Days, but I think I have a much better view of Laira than most. I think that if Sam had never been a part of Stargate and Jack had had no over love interest the fans were rooting for, I think that Laira would seem much more tolerable. She wasn't perfect (but then again, a perfect love interest is a Mary Sue, and no one wants that!), but I don't see her as selfish or possessive. She wasn't trying to replace Sam (which is super important to remember!); she was just an alien widow living a simple life who was attracted to Jack (and who can blame her for that?).

The plot for this episode is really about how Sam gets Jack home and how Jack adjusts to life on another planet for three months. The theme is grief and the grieving process, as shown by Laira's backstory. NOW! The critique could be that the grieving process is not an appropriate one for this episode because Jack wouldn't have given up on going home so quickly, but in that situation, I don't think he couldn't not entertain the idea that him may be stuck on Edora, and I do like that the conflict in the episode is more character driven (the male writers could have learned something from that...)

And here's an idea. Starting tomorrow, pretend in your mind that you are Jack, stranded from Earth, (you don't know if Sam, Daniel, and Teal'c were killed in the meteor storm), and the Stargate is gone (definitely buried, perhaps destroyed). Keep that thought in the back of your head for 100 days, and when you start to experience the episode in "real-time," you see just how long a time that actually is. (And how long Sam worked to get him home ... ).

But the point is that the conflict of the episode is not "How does Jack keep up hope to return home while a pushy alien woman pressures him to remain with her?" If that was the conflict, we'd certainly be justified in vilifying her. But personally, I don't think that is fair. Laira is pragmatic and simple by nature of her lifestyle. She doesn't know that Sam will be able to redefine physics and get Jack home. All she knows is that her village has been devastated and they must rebuild with fewer hands than they started with, so she insists that Jack help them with that task. But she never pressures Jack to sleep with her for those first three months even though she's attracted to him, because she knows that he's grieving.

It doesn't surprise me at all that Jack and Laira gravitated to each other. She helped him during that time, they both had a new purpose of helping to rebuild the town, and she went out of her way to advocate for him when other villagers blamed him for their missing friends and family. Yes, she does pressure Jack to get rid of the things that remind him of Earth, but she only did that on Day #100, and I think she was trying to help him through the grieving process (which Jack also seems to recognize).

The only problem I have with Laira is that she asks Jack to take their relationship to a sexual level once he's drunk enough to have a huge hangover the next morning. Kind of like Sam making important life decisions with a massive concussion, that's not a state that you should make major changes in! He does dance with Laira and seem happy before he gets drunk, but that's just not something you should push on a person after a night of heavy drinking.

If I try making sense of this episode... well, one could say Jack fell in love with her because she was devoted to him more than anyone while he was stranded, she looked pretty and womanly and motherly, she also was making passes at him... which means she also was easily available in a way Sam wasn't at all (i noticed this with Jack's love interests in general... he never actively pursue anyone beyond harmless flirting, he lets things happen, he lets women come and want him... even with Kerry, we can expect she was the one to flirt with him first... maybe he always was a bit passive when it comes to this... or maybe it started after his marriage' failure... because he's scared to commit to someone he may lose again ?)... stuff like this.

A good observation and definitely something that I think plays out for Jack. It's also the reason why it ticks me off when people talk about Jack as being the Kirk of SG-1 (seriously!). Kynthia was, for lack of a better word, an accident, and Laira was the only other woman Jack had a relationship with until Kerry. And it's another reason why I don't vilify Laira, because I think that Jack likes women who are assertive about their relationship.

We're also looking at this episode twenty years after the fact, with the recognition of how much Jack and Sam share throughout the show, but three seasons in, there hadn't been any talk of Jack and Sam's feelings for each other (not counting alternate versions of themselves). The fact that the conversation between Janet and Sam implies that Sam does have deeper feelings for Jack than respect and friendship is actually pretty revolutionary, but it didn't change the fact that as Kawalsky mentions in Point of View, a relationship would be against regulations, and the writers, the Air Force, and Rick and Amanda were all very adamant that nothing could ever happen between them in our reality.

That was the intention behind-the-screen, and on-screen Jack and Sam don't seem to have talked about their feelings either. All we had up until this point was as an virus-induced kiss, friendship, and a little flirting in the line of duty. I feel like the confession in Divide and Conquer that Jack would literally rather give up his own life than live in a world without Sam was actually incredibly shocking considering the extent of their feelings had never before been explored on screen.

So before 100 Days, I get the impression that Jack recognized that his feelings went beyond attraction for Sam. His simple remark in Point of View that "Sam is a major in my world." tells me that he has at least thought about a relationship with her. However, it also shows that he believes that a relationship will never happen, either because of their working relationships or perhaps he doesn't know Sam sees him that way.

Though it's never shown onscreen, I agree with the many fanfiction writers who assume that Jack and Sam talked about their feelings when they were stuck off-world for a week between Seasons 3 and 4. Even GateWorld picked up on the implicit change in Jack and Sam's relationship after that, and on the overview page for "Small Victories," they say:

Sam's relationship with Jack seems to have changed over the past week - perhaps as a result of them nearly being killed on the Beliskner, or because of something than happened while on P3X-234 (or both). She seems to have let her guard down, and is more open - more free in showing how much she enjoys him.

In that case, I would not be saying any of these positive things about Laira if 100 Days had taken place after the start of Season 4

So does Jack settle for Laira the way Sam settles for Pete? I personally don't think so, but you could make that argument. However, I think that Laira was very much in line with what we know about Jack wants in a relationship (she's assertive and pragmatic, a lot like Kerry and I think Sara as well). She makes her feelings known, which is something Sam has not done because she can't. Poor Sam just had a habit of choosing men who were possessive and manipulative until she and Jack got together.

[SamJackShipper93]

And yeah, Edora's entire setting was probably pleasing to Jack, who loves his cabin in the wood, his fishing, etc... Not to mention the relative peace of not being shot at. I guess he enjoyed his time with Laira because it was utterly uncomplicated. It's just... the baby thing that felt really OCC for him to agree on like that. And knowing he could have become a ghost father if the writers had confirmed Laira's pregnancy being successful/real (I like to believe it didn't work out but she was strongly hoping she was pregnant at the end of the episode).

I can't remember where, but both Rick and the writers stated that by virtue of the fact that the storyline was never explored, there was no baby. That line of reasoning is valid only because they realized that as a character, Jack would never have ignored a child of his. Also, the timing implies that they'd only slept together very shortly before. So I'm fine with chalking up the end of 100 Days as Laira expressing hopefulness for a baby.

I'm not sure he was mad at his team. For what ? They didn't intend to leave him behind. It was accidental. I'm not sure what to think about his feelings about Sam in this episode though ? What was he truly feeling for her before this episode ? Just attraction + friendship ? But what were his feelings during Point of View (a previous episode) when he found out altSam was married to him (and happy before he died) ? Did he know he was falling in love already ? If so, what does it mean that he naturally fell for another woman just like that off world ?

All good questions. I do think Jack was in love with Sam (The Divide and Conquer confession isn't too far after), but like I said above, he assumed either that Sam wasn't interested or that even if she was, a relationship could never happen.

Actually one of the reasons I adore Jack and Sam's relationship is that it's a modern (and super angsty) exploration of an actual forbidden relationship. He's her commanding officer, so they can't even talk about their relationship without breaking the regs. They are both needed on the frontlines to fight a galactic war, and they can't even transfer to other teams because Jack can't stand the idea of not being able to protect Sam (This isn't explicitly canon, but is implied by the protectiveness of "I'd have rather died myself than lose Carter.")

In a lot of shows, there are couples that are given angsty will-they/won't-they storylines for the drama, but in real-life all that would be needed to clear up the confusion would be a single honest conversion. This always bothers me in The Office, where Jim confesses his feelings to Pam while she's engaged, she's shocked and unsure, but she breaks off her engagement, but Jim transfers to another job and then gets in a relationship with another woman. It gave the characters some angst, but whenever I watch those episodes I always think, "You know, there are some characters who literally can't be together because of their jobs. Just get your head out of your bums and have an honest conversation and all your problems would go away!" Anybody else think things like that when watching shows with other couples?

But it's also the reason why I consider their attempts to move on from each other to be healthy for them (but not Pete. Pete was awful and Sam never should have let the relationship go so far). It gives more reality to their storyline, because Stargate isn't a fairytale where the hero and heroine pine hopelessly but faithfully for each other indefinitely. They are portrayed as real people who recognize the impossibility of a relationship.

Remember, Grace establishes that part of the reason why Sam fails to move on from Jack is psychological (i.e. she recognizes how impossible their relationship is): "As long as I'm thinking about you, setting my sights on what I think is unattainable, there's no chance of being hurt by someone else."

Thankfully, they do get their chance at the end of Season 8. In many ways, we can be thankful that Rick left the show at that time because 1) a new position could open up new possibilities for Sam and Jack's relationship, and 2) Amanda's fear of Sam becoming "Jack's girl" if they got together was negated because Rick was no longer on the show. (We can also be thankful that Amanda's pregnancy was not written into Season 8 and 9 as was originally proposed, because barring unforeseen circumstances, the baby only could have been one man's...)

Does it mean he locked his feelings for Sam deep inside because they were considered inappropriate ? Or/and because he thought she didn't return his feelings and would consider them creepy if she knew ? Or does it mean his feelings for Sam weren't that strong when he fell for Laira ? Then they returned when he came back (ending the thing with Laira) and resumed developing ? I wish we knew more about Jack's character and how he canonly feels about the people in his life. I feel like there are things we don't know. Like, did he ever consider going back to Sara after season 1 ? Like Sam asked in season 7, did they ever talk again ? Has he forgotten about Laira and the possible kid ? What are his thoughts about his feelings for Sam (Did their age difference ever bother him ? Did he ever doubt about the nature of his feelings ? Did he truly not care about her sciency talks... considering he was into astronomy ? Was his later behavior canonly influenced by the dramatic events of Entity ? Him directly killing her with a weapon, summoning guilty feelings at the time, similar to when his son died ? Did he ever feel like he was projecting his ex-wife on her at first ? Was he angry at her moving on (with Pete) but was refusing to show it ? Does he consider himself to be like Cassie's father (with Sam and Janet as the mother figures) ? What did he bloody mean in Affinity ? How does he feel about the long distance thing post season 8 (must be hard, frankly... then again, the show did its hardest to completely ignore Sam/Jack was a thing at this point) ? How was his family and why did he never talk about them (i mean parents, siblings... not what we already know about his ex wife and lost son) ?

Yes! It really goes to show just how canon and fanon become conflated, because none of these questions have been addressed on the show, but of course, fans (and especially fic writers) have created elaborate interpretations of the show that deal with a lot of these issues. Fandom does, rather cohesively, consider "Entity" to be an especially huge turning point for Sam and Jack and the less-flirty relationship in Season 5, but did the writers and actors intend for that to happen? My gut says no.

Sam is a bit less mysterious considering episodes like Grace.

What's funny though is that Sam's a bit less mysterious solely because of "Grace." Like I quoted above, we never would have known how much of an effect Sam's mother's passing had affected her view of relationships. Jonas Hansen seems imply that Sam used romantic relationships to try to heal her partners, but Sam (as the Jacob hallucination) reveals that she's "always" been alone (that's probably not literal, but it definitely implies to me that Jonas and Pete were the only two serious relationships Sam probably had). No other episode reveals such information about Sam's character.

But that was par for the course with SG-1. Unfortunately, the writers were far more comfortable with simply telling characterization than showing it. In "Cor-ai" we learn that Daniel did know that Teal'c was the one who chose Sha're for implantation. He mentions that It "was difficult for me [to work with Teal'c] at first, I wanted to hate him," but we never would have known that from the episodes themselves. Likewise, Daniel's feelings of inadequacy and questioning his place on SG-1 are only really rooted in "Meridian" and "Orpheus" respectively.

What's my point? Not sure, but I always lament the fact that there is so much character development that was missed because the writers didn't consider that very important.

**I do like the parts where Sam works to save him, is questioned by Janet, and even a bit of the tension at Jack's lack of enthusiasm at the end. I would have liked it more if there had been a scene resolving the tension that was created (him appreciating her work and them having a typical "moment").

2) IT WAS JOLINAR!!

LOL

[UhSir]

Nope, it was Sam!

[hedwig]

How about it was both?

[UhSir]

That's probably more like it. Sam did call Jolinar a "him" so it makes sense that that bit was Sam.

[SaraBahama]

Sadly ( ) the attachment isn't there. (heavy sigh) Message says "Invalid attachment".

Well, phooey! I guess I'm going to have to find a photobucket replacement. I thought I could just upload from my hard drive, but it didn't work that time. Love you anyway, hedwig!

That's probably more like it. Sam did call Jolinar a "him" so it makes sense that that bit was Sam.

I think the humans have a difficult time with Tok'ra gender pronouns in general. For instance, they start out referring to Selmak as "she", but by the time of Threads, they tend toward "he". So...Sam calling Jolinar "him" doesn't really have bearing on the argument. LOL >.<

[SaraBahama]

I'm working on my own rewatch now. I just watched Brief Candle last night.

[Everlovin]

Well, phooey! I guess I'm going to have to find a photobucket replacement. I thought I could just upload from my hard drive, but it d<snipped badly, sorry>LOL >.<

I've been using imgbox.com since photobucket decided to be a pain. It's been working fairly well so far.

[SamJackShipper93]

I think the humans have a difficult time with Tok'ra gender pronouns in general. For instance, they start out referring to Selmak as "she", but by the time of Threads, they tend toward "he". So...Sam calling Jolinar "him" doesn't really have bearing on the argument. LOL >.<

Except that I think UhSir's argument (correct me if I'm wrong) is that given what we know about Jolinar, Jolinar wouldn't call herself "he." If it were truly Jolinar speaking she would have said, "She's telling you the truth." So Sam must have been speaking, because she's the one who thinks of Jolinar as a male presence (and continues to do so up until Martouf corrects her). Is that right?

Actually, this is probably the most convincing piece of evidence to me that Sam is speaking. And of course the "It was Sam" camp also has Amanda on their side, since she said she played it as Sam.

However, I personally just can't get behind how out-of-character the moment feels to me if it was indeed Sam. At this stage in their relationship I just can't see Sam using Jack's first name. I feel like she would use Colonel or Sir, especially in this moment of distress, because that's so much more familiar. I also think that for Jack, Sam using his name convinces him that she's not the one speaking, which is why he leaves her alone.

[SamJackShipper93]

I've been using imgbox.com since photobucket decided to be a pain. It's been working fairly well so far.

That's what I did as well!

[UhSir]

Well, phooey! I guess I'm going to have to find a photobucket replacement. I thought I could just upload from my hard drive, but it didn't work that time. Love you anyway, hedwig!

I think the humans have a difficult time with Tok'ra gender pronouns in general. For instance, they start out referring to Selmak as "she", but by the time of Threads, they tend toward "he". So...Sam calling Jolinar "him" doesn't really have bearing on the argument. LOL >.<

I'm trying out imgbb.com and it's okay so far. I think I can get used to it.

I think the humans default to figuring gender of the Tok'ra to be that of the host. And it usually is. But not for Jolinar who was in an "any port in a storm" situation. Sam assumed she was the "any port" but in fact the guy on the planet had been too. So...yes it does have bearing here.

[UhSir]

Except that I think UhSir's argument (correct me if I'm wrong) is that given what we know about Jolinar, Jolinar wouldn't call herself "he." If it were truly Jolinar speaking she would have said, "She's telling you the truth." So Sam must have been speaking, because she's the one who thinks of Jolinar as a male presence (and continues to do so up until Martouf corrects her). Is that right?

Actually, this is probably the most convincing piece of evidence to me that Sam is speaking. And of course the "It was Sam" camp also has Amanda on their side, since she said she played it as Sam.

However, I personally just can't get behind how out-of-character the moment feels to me if it was indeed Sam. At this stage in their relationship I just can't see Sam using Jack's first name. I feel like she would use Colonel or Sir, especially in this moment of distress, because that's so much more familiar. I also think that for Jack, Sam using his name convinces him that she's not the one speaking, which is why he leaves her alone.

Yes, you are correct about what I was saying. Thank you for getting the words out of my head. I also agree that her using Jack's name was not like Sam. Perhaps at that point is when Jolinar took back control? Maybe Sam was about to say something that would make it worse for Jolinar? Or maybe Sam was just so confused, military rules and training never planned for this, she was desperate. So desperate that she thought calling Jack by name would shock him into staying?

[hedwig]

This is the argument ... er, I mean discussion, that will haunt the halls of history and fade into myth, and never be accurately answered. Historians will still be discussing it many centuries from now. Was it Jolinar or was it Sam?

[SamJackShipper93]

I adore the fact that Jack is always part of Sam's life when Amanda reflects on where the characters are now!

[UhSir]

This is the argument ... er, I mean discussion, that will haunt the halls of history and fade into myth, and never be accurately answered. Historians will still be discussing it many centuries from now. Was it Jolinar or was it Sam?

smilie by Mala