Sam Carter /Jack O'Neill Ship Appreciation Thread 2.0

[Fresh_Horse]

Joe Malozzi is reminiscing about Stargate on reddit and this little tidbit caught my attention

https://www.reddit.com/r/Stargate/co...h_the_surface/

So we weren't imagining things Sam and Jack should have been much more involved in this episode but Amanda nixed that idea. I'm sad to say but I think that was a bad decision on her part, if Sam and Jack relationship in Beneath the Surface would have been more intimate, it would gave been much more painful to return to their professional relationship afterwards.

Funny, those who were anywhere near the fandom back then remember how they all backtracked right after D&C.
Most notably because they didn't have the guts to stand up to a vocal minority.

BTW, this "oh, there was another draft which was so much better" only means he thought it was better. I am sick and tired of this BS, the whole "there was another kiss in BtS but it got cut" yaddayadda.
I also remember the nasty episode where Mallozzi sucked up to sdj, let them post his blog on their website and they in turn denied the SJHW to repost it on their website.
Every other website it was fine on but not the horse women's. Did JM do anything about that? Nope.
He kept giving sdj his blog for a while after that.

Suck up!

10 years after the show and they are still teasing people.

[siles]

Funny, those who were anywhere near the fandom back then remember how they all backtracked right after D&C.
Most notably because they didn't have the guts to stand up to a vocal minority.

BTW, this "oh, there was another draft which was so much better" only means he thought it was better. I am sick and tired of this BS, the whole "there was another kiss in BtS but it got cut" yaddayadda.
I also remember the nasty episode where Mallozzi sucked up to sdj, let them post his blog on their website and they in turn denied the SJHW to repost it on their website.
Every other website it was fine on but not the horse women's. Did JM do anything about that? Nope.
He kept giving sdj his blog for a while after that.

Suck up!

10 years after the show and they are still teasing people.

I'm sorry but I don't understand what is sdj and SJHW?

[Fresh_Horse]

I'm sorry but I don't understand what is sdj and SJHW?

sdj - savedanieljackson
SJHW - Sam Jack Horse Women

[XFchemist]

sdj - savedanieljackson
SJHW - Sam Jack Horse Women

JM replied to me on twitter talking about SJHorsewomen but I didn't know what he was talking about.

[Akamaimom]

But hey--we saved BAG.

(Balding Asian Guy. . . That was the ONLY reason I watched any of Universe at all. . .)

I agree with you, Fresh_Horse. It's frustrating beyond all get-out that the show runners are so completely incapable of just following through on plot points that they both wrote and produced. It makes no sense. If Threads hadn't happened, if Sam had followed through on marrying Pete, maybe I could justify the idea that after so many years the fire between Sam and Jack had fizzled. But they wrote the "Always" line. They wrote and produced the conversation between Kerry and Jack when she told him that he needed to retire. They figured that being deliberately obtuse was going to assuage everyone's desires to settle the relationship--that those who wanted them together could interpret it one way and those who didn't could keep denying it.

I dunno. I myself vacillate between NEEDING to see the confirmation and being okay with knowing in my heart that they're together. But I do stand by what I wrote previously. I think that a large part of this is the fact that TPTB were uncomfortable with infusing Sci-Fi with a healthy dose of romance/relationship stuff. They didn't want to alienate the viewers who were violently opposed to mushy stuff in their shoot-'em-up show.

[RadicalDreamer]

I know I'm late for the "Need" episode discussion, but I finally got that chapter finished. . .
Just thought I'd share. Things Owed--Need

I've read it. It's pretty neat ! Honestly, I think your portrayal of Daniel is spot on. His character tends sometimes to get flanderized to some pure friendly guy in fanfics... when his real character is much more flawed (I noticed that it tends to happen with INFP type characters... they get pigeonholed as "sweet cinnamon roll"... but I'm a strong INFP myself and I can tell you that I don't recognize myself in this "cliché"... most INFP are deeply sensitive people... which also means we can be too idealistic with a temper and we can deeply hurt people out of anger and have dark thoughts/be prone to depression). He's not the only character though. Jack (he can become too soft, or dumb *the show itself made the same mistake as years passed*... and I heard he can be pictured as a dumb brute in some jack/daniel fics) and Sam (she can become a fragile violet, or an hysterical harpy... and I'm sure there are fics out there that picture her as frigid/humorless but I don't read them) get flanderized too. Teal'c though... I dunno... the worst that can happen I guess is fics picturing him with the wrong (aka casual) speech style.

I know that they had the added pressure of the military watching their scripts, and that would have been difficult to work around, I admit. But in the end, they could have taken that time while Sam was in Groom Lake to make it possible for Sam and Jack to be confirmed. It would have made sense--and quite frankly, given them a few nifty and heart-tugging plot possibilities without making it the "Sam and Jack Hour".

Yeah... but either they didn't care or they were still afraid to anger someone by continuing to depict the Sam/Jack romance. In the end, they tried to ignore the Sam/Jack bond all together to the characters (and common sense)'s detriment. It still pisses me off.

Joe Malozzi is reminiscing about Stargate on reddit and this little tidbit caught my attention

https://www.reddit.com/r/Stargate/co...h_the_surface/

So we weren't imagining things Sam and Jack should have been much more involved in this episode but Amanda nixed that idea. I'm sad to say but I think that was a bad decision on her part, if Sam and Jack relationship in Beneath the Surface would have been more intimate, it would gave been much more painful to return to their professional relationship afterwards.

Yeah... I liked this episode but it would have been so much better/more effective with them as a very obvious couple. Not that the episode doesn't hint that they loved each other (they were ALWAYS hanging out together, after all... plus this little scene with "feeling feelings" and Jack speaking about his smutty dreams in Sam's presence... I mean come on "mining naked" ? "my dreams are about.... other things" ? While looking at her or/and with shots of Sam's face immediately after he said that ?)... but the first draft would have been better.

But is Malozzi repeating himself ? He already said this/did a revisit of the show a few years ago.

While it isn't actual confirmation, there are hints throughout the SGA books where Atlantis goes back to Pegasus (of them being in a relationship), there's a scene at the end of one of the books with Sam and Jack fishing on one of the piers of Atlantis, and she says something like "you're the only person who can say he's been 'fishing' in two galaxies". Not exactly confirmation, but it certainly could be taken that way.

Sam's line is a very obvious sexual innuendo Jack reacts to in this book ("I can't believe you just said that."). It goes more something like "Not many guys can say they dipped their poles where you have". Then, after Jack's line, she answers "Fishing ! I was talking about fishing !". Rofl, Sam XD... sure. The Legacy books also hinted at them being engaged... which is maybe harder to spot (like Sam saying she's been engaged 3 times... like who's the third ? or Sam's mention of the Leaving on a Jetplane song in one of her letters to Jack).

Funny, those who were anywhere near the fandom back then remember how they all backtracked right after D&C.
Most notably because they didn't have the guts to stand up to a vocal minority.

BTW, this "oh, there was another draft which was so much better" only means he thought it was better. I am sick and tired of this BS, the whole "there was another kiss in BtS but it got cut" yaddayadda.
I also remember the nasty episode where Mallozzi sucked up to sdj, let them post his blog on their website and they in turn denied the SJHW to repost it on their website.
Every other website it was fine on but not the horse women's. Did JM do anything about that? Nope.
He kept giving sdj his blog for a while after that.

Suck up!

10 years after the show and they are still teasing people.

To be honest, I still wonder if people who disliked the ship were just really vocal about their dislike or actually MORE than a minority. There used to be so much hate/disdain directed at our ship by... what seemed to me... at least half the SG fans on forums (I still remember general SG discussions threads to be biaised against S/J talk). And the most vitriolic hate was 99% fueled by ship wars/differences.
But I agree that it was a mistake from the writers to be swayed THAT easily by others when it came to Sam and Jack's relationship development. Just make your choice and stick by it, I say. Besides, I don't think the S/J ship ever caused a drop in audience in the episodes where the romance was the most visible... despite the vitriol in the fandom.

I don't really get the whole sdj/SJHW thing though. What happened exactly ? Does it have something to do with the ship wars between S/J and J/D fans or something ?

[SamJackShipper93]

In all this discussion, I forgot to change the ep of the week!

Episode of the Week

Holiday

But then again, it's "Holiday," so I'm just as happy having a couple days less for this one...

[Akamaimom]

To be honest, I still wonder if people who disliked the ship were just really vocal about their dislike or actually MORE than a minority. There used to be so much hate/disdain directed at our ship by... what seemed to me... at least half the SG fans on forums (I still remember general SG discussions threads to be biaised against S/J talk). And the most vitriolic hate was 99% fueled by ship wars/differences.
But I agree that it was a mistake from the writers to be swayed THAT easily by others when it came to Sam and Jack's relationship development. Just make your choice and stick by it, I say. Besides, I don't think the S/J ship ever caused a drop in audience in the episodes where the romance was the most visible... despite the vitriol in the fandom.

I don't really get the whole sdj/SJHW thing though. What happened exactly ? Does it have something to do with the ship wars between S/J and J/D fans or something ?

That's an interesting observation. Perhaps it's because the most Shippy episodes happen to be (to me, at least), some of the most well-written? I think that the Upgrades--Window of Opportunity--Beneath the Surface arc is one of the most natural and flowing plot lines in the entire series. Also, other episodes that shippers love are just wonderfully crafted--Entity, Desperate Measures, Grace, Metamorphosis, Death Knell, Citizen Joe, Threads--(granted, this just might be MY list of favorites)--these are scripts that are different and quirky and entertaining in a way that episodes like Shadow Play, The Curse, and Rite of Passage aren't.

I don't know. This is probably my own conjecture, and most definitely my own list of favorites, but I think that the Daniel-centric Teal'c-centric episodes are weaker in general than those episodes that feature Jack and/or Sam.

[SamJackShipper93]

That's an interesting observation. Perhaps it's because the most Shippy episodes happen to be (to me, at least), some of the most well-written? I think that the Upgrades--Window of Opportunity--Beneath the Surface arc is one of the most natural and flowing plot lines in the entire series. Also, other episodes that shippers love are just wonderfully crafted--Entity, Desperate Measures, Grace, Metamorphosis, Death Knell, Citizen Joe, Threads--(granted, this just might be MY list of favorites)--these are scripts that are different and quirky and entertaining in a way that episodes like Shadow Play, The Curse, and Rite of Passage aren't.

I don't know. This is probably my own conjecture, and most definitely my own list of favorites, but I think that the Daniel-centric Teal'c-centric episodes are weaker in general than those episodes that feature Jack and/or Sam.

Agreed. And I would add that I believe part of that is because S/J episodes feature the relationship between two main characters that the audience actively cares about. I'm not saying that every lead male character needs to fall in love with the lead female, but I do believe that episodes like Shadow Play, The Curse, and Rite of Passage lost emotional depth because they dealt with characters we weren't invested in: Jonas and his professor, Daniel and Sarah Gardner, even Cassie's episode was difficult because while it was clear that SG-1 and Janet were invested in her story, there wasn't really an emotional tie to Cassie from the audience's perspective since she'd been used so infrequently through the show.

So not only were the episodes dealing with Sam and Jack's relationship wonderfully written (I'm trying to examine the writing unbiasedly!), but because we're more invested with both of those characters, those episodes packed a more emotional punch ... which is probably why they're more likely to be anathema to those audience members who don't want that to be the main focus in Stargate.

[RadicalDreamer]

That's an interesting observation. Perhaps it's because the most Shippy episodes happen to be (to me, at least), some of the most well-written? I think that the Upgrades--Window of Opportunity--Beneath the Surface arc is one of the most natural and flowing plot lines in the entire series. Also, other episodes that shippers love are just wonderfully crafted--Entity, Desperate Measures, Grace, Metamorphosis, Death Knell, Citizen Joe, Threads--(granted, this just might be MY list of favorites)--these are scripts that are different and quirky and entertaining in a way that episodes like Shadow Play, The Curse, and Rite of Passage aren't.

I don't know. This is probably my own conjecture, and most definitely my own list of favorites, but I think that the Daniel-centric Teal'c-centric episodes are weaker in general than those episodes that feature Jack and/or Sam.

Depends on who you asks. Daniel is a really popular character, after all. I feel like Teal'c does get the least compelling episodes though (sadly... because I love him... and Bratac as well). But I agree about the episodes you mention. They're pretty good (though I don't think Citizen Joe has a lot of ship in it... just some vague throw away lines about Jack's feelings for her at the end *I said vague because some people could interpret this scene as Jack having feelings for a completely different character and not wanting Sam to know about it... after all, there is zero scene related to the S/J ship in the flashbacks Joe experienced*... but I remember liking the episode because it was the least boring/most creative recap episode in the entire series).

Agreed. And I would add that I believe part of that is because S/J episodes feature the relationship between two main characters that the audience actively cares about.

It's true... it plays a part. Though, there were other relationships the audience felt invested in... but they were indeed all between main/regular characters.

I'm not saying that every lead male character needs to fall in love with the lead female, but I do believe that episodes like Shadow Play, The Curse, and Rite of Passage lost emotional depth because they dealt with characters we weren't invested in: Jonas and his professor, Daniel and Sarah Gardner, even Cassie's episode was difficult because while it was clear that SG-1 and Janet were invested in her story, there wasn't really an emotional tie to Cassie from the audience's perspective since she'd been used so infrequently through the show.

This. And it makes me a bit sad about Cassie. Because it's not like she wasn't important to the team. Despite being adopted by Janet for most of the show, she was the closest thing Sam (and Jack) had to a daughter. Considering their history (Jack losing his only child and Sam losing her mother at a young age), I think it probably was a missed opportunity NOT to involve Cassie more in the show with these characters. I mean, Janet was a natural and fantastic mother figure... but I think the writers could have done so much more here (also I feel like Janet's motherly persona also affected Sam herself, as one who lost her mother and only feminine influence so young... Janet's death is so much more impactful and painful if you think about the Sam/Janet relationship in that light imo).

So not only were the episodes dealing with Sam and Jack's relationship wonderfully written (I'm trying to examine the writing unbiasedly!), but because we're more invested with both of those characters, those episodes packed a more emotional punch ... which is probably why they're more likely to be anathema to those audience members who don't want that to be the main focus in Stargate.

Maybe. Then again, I also heard people saying the biggest problem with the S/J ship was the writing. They're not completely wrong... but any time the writing hurt the Sam/Jack relationship, more often than not, it was because the writers tried to separate or ignore them. Like the Pete arc and the Orlin episode (which required Jack *and the other members of SG1* to be an untrusting butt to Sam *when their relationship is based on trust and weird things happened countless of time in the show... see Daniel when he was put into a mental institute... and Jack TRUSTED him more than he did Sam in Ascension... see my problem with this episode ?* so the Orlin scenario could happen).

[Fresh_Horse]

I don't really get the whole sdj/SJHW thing though. What happened exactly ? Does it have something to do with the ship wars between S/J and J/D fans or something ?

I don't have much time right now, would love to answer to several posts on here but since more than one of you inquired about the horsewomen.

The SJ horsewomen were a fan group dedicated to all things Sam/Jack.
They had some wonderful writers among them.

JM at one point wanted to share some info with fans and for whatever reason decided to send those write ups to the sdj group.

Back then not everyone had their own site or used sites like myspace etc. to share stuff. So I figure JM thought it was easier to do it that way.

SDJ posted the "blog" entries on their site and just about every other fan run site reposted the whole text. When the horsewomen did so they got a sort of "cease and desist" and were told they could only maybe quote a bit and then link to the SDJ site.

A site that was full of hatred towards AT and anything to do with Sam/Jack.
Some of the most vocal and downright nasty J/D slashers lived on SDJ and the Horsewomen were told to link there.

What pissed me off even more was that JM kept sending SDJ his blog entries in spite of their ****ty behaviour. He could also have put his foot down them that it was OK for everyone to repost his blog but he didn't.

[RadicalDreamer]

I don't have much time right now, would love to answer to several posts on here but since more than one of you inquired about the horsewomen.

The SJ horsewomen were a fan group dedicated to all things Sam/Jack.
They had some wonderful writers among them.

JM at one point wanted to share some info with fans and for whatever reason decided to send those write ups to the sdj group.

Back then not everyone had their own site or used sites like myspace etc. to share stuff. So I figure JM thought it was easier to do it that way.

SDJ posted the "blog" entries on their site and just about every other fan run site reposted the whole text. When the horsewomen did so they got a sort of "cease and desist" and were told they could only maybe quote a bit and then link to the SDJ site.

A site that was full of hatred towards AT and anything to do with Sam/Jack.
Some of the most vocal and downright nasty J/D slashers lived on SDJ and the Horsewomen were told to link there.

What pissed me off even more was that JM kept sending SDJ his blog entries in spite of their ****ty behaviour. He could also have put his foot down them that it was OK for everyone to repost his blog but he didn't.

I see. This is more or less what I expected, sadly. Sigh... Ship wars are not fun (though, here, it seems JM could have done something about it... unless he wasn't responsible for the "cease and desist" thing... I dunno). I try to avoid them in most fandoms but sometimes it's pretty difficult (I know another big fandom like this where I couldn't help taking a side despite liking both rival pairings and loving all the characters... I can get a bit defensive when people are being unfair towards a group of fans or character/pairing... I rarely get into arguments with anti-fans because I know it leads nowhere good... but it makes me support the dismissed/hated pairing/character/fandom so much more lol).

[Akamaimom]

The thing that drove me CRAZY about the Jack/Daniel slash VS. Jack/Sam ship wars was that there was never anything written in the show making the Jack/Daniel relationship anything more than a deep, abiding friendship. There were two hugs that I'm remembering--both within the first two seasons (the "Space Monkey" hug at the end of "Serpent's Lair", and the hug after the supply room hug after Daniel's breakdown at the end of "Need"). Otherwise, they were very close, if not somewhat adversarial, friends. You have to look really, really closely to finagle any kind of ship out of that at all.

Jack and Sam admitted their feelings to each other, and in public. They had actual lines written for them to actually say that proved that the ship was 1) real. And 2) INTENTIONAL on the part of the show runners.

I know we aren't supposed to diss the anti-ship crowd, but we shippers (back in the early years of this site) put up with a lot of crap from the antis and slash crowds. And then to have whatever behind the scenes information that we managed to beg out of producers/writers/TPTB put into the hands of the anti-ship crowd was really annoying.

Dunno. I know in my heart of hearts (and in my fic--lol) that they're happy together. It doesn't really matter to me anymore what the antis say--but it would be nice to get thrown even the tiniest bit of a bone, since the show is still being discussed actively at cons and on sites like this.

(And for the Teal'c lovers out there, I think that the Teal'c-centric episodes were MUCH better than the Jaffa-centric episodes. The Changeling is really good. I re-watch that one from time to time. I also like the one in later seasons when he goes rogue and starts offing people who ticked him off. I can't remember the name of that ep, though.)

[hedwig]

(And for the Teal'c lovers out there, I think that the Teal'c-centric episodes were MUCH better than the Jaffa-centric episodes. The Changeling is really good. I re-watch that one from time to time. I also like the one in later seasons when he goes rogue and starts offing people who ticked him off. I can't remember the name of that ep, though.)

Season 10, Talion.

[Akamaimom]

Season 10, Talion.

Of COURSE you know that. You are my hero, and the Master. I bow to your prowess.