Sam Carter /Jack O'Neill Ship Appreciation Thread 2.0

[Akamaimom]

The Best of the Ship is . . .

The Lost City (1)

vs.

Tangent

[SamJackShipper93]

The Best of the Ship is . . .

Threads (10)

vs.

Descent (1)

I think Descent deserves at least one vote. It has a lot of nice subtle shippy moments. It also has two of my favorite recurring characters - Major Davis and Jacob Carter. In fact, the dynamic of Jack, Sam and Jacob is one of the things I love most. We get that in Threads too of course. And ultimately it's Jacob that finally knocks some sense into Sam. I like to think he had a little talk with Jack as well. When we see Jack in his office staring off into nowhere as Kerry comes in to break up with him I like to think that he is lost in thought about something Jacob has said to him. The conversation between Jack and Kerry is good. It shows that only a blind fool or (but I repeat myself) can't see at a single glance what Jack and Sam have between them. Still, I would have loved to see Jacob tell Jack to get his $#*! together, man up and give Sam a reason to drop like the sack of mushy potatoes that he was. I think Jacob did see that his wise words were heeded in the end. I like that we can see him reflected in the window as Jack finally goes to Sam and lays his cards on the table. All that is to say that Threads is the better shippy episode, but Descent was a toward that ultimate resolution. Jacob knew long before what had to happen eventually for his little girl to be happy.

Tonight's winner: Threads

First, LOL for the bolded part.

Second, I've always wondered how much Pete knew about Jack. It really irks me that while Season 7 and 8 was essentially a love triangle, Pete and Jack never actually met onscreen. Oh, how beautifully, awkwardly satisfying a scene with the two of them would have been!

But then in Threads, in the scene where Sam (finally!!!) kicks him to the curb, his line is: "I knew from the beginning. Guess I just thought that when you said yes ... you were worth the risk. ... I wish I could believe this had something to do with your father. You needed some time to sort things out. I guess all I can say is ... I hope you get what you want."

Now, please, if any of you have a good explanation of the implications of this scene, please let me hear it, because this part still confuses me to no end. I've never really understood Pete's line or Sam's response that she assumed that he would react differently.

To me, it only makes sense if he's saying that he knew that Sam was in love with Jack (or at the very least, in love with someone else). Maybe that's the conclusion he reached has he saw how uninvolved she was in planning their wedding or that she took over two weeks to say yes to his proposal (I mean, that should really tell you something). But really, that's all fan theory and speculation, because the series never gave any indication that Pete thought she was in love with someone else.

Honestly, I think the SG writers thought that subtlety was the best way to deal with Sam and Jack's relationship, and they thought they were doing it well, but instead we ended up with nearly indiscernible dialogue like Affinity's "I wouldn't be here" scene.

[Akamaimom]

First, LOL for the bolded part.

Second, I've always wondered how much Pete knew about Jack. It really irks me that while Season 7 and 8 was essentially a love triangle, Pete and Jack never actually met onscreen. Oh, how beautifully, awkwardly satisfying a scene with the two of them would have been!

But then in Threads, in the scene where Sam (finally!!!) kicks him to the curb, his line is: "I knew from the beginning. Guess I just thought that when you said yes ... you were worth the risk. ... I wish I could believe this had something to do with your father. You needed some time to sort things out. I guess all I can say is ... I hope you get what you want."

Now, please, if any of you have a good explanation of the implications of this scene, please let me hear it, because this part still confuses me to no end. I've never really understood Pete's line or Sam's response that she assumed that he would react differently.

To me, it only makes sense if he's saying that he knew that Sam was in love with Jack (or at the very least, in love with someone else). Maybe that's the conclusion he reached has he saw how uninvolved she was in planning their wedding or that she took over two weeks to say yes to his proposal (I mean, that should really tell you something). But really, that's all fan theory and speculation, because the series never gave any indication that Pete thought she was in love with someone else.

Honestly, I think the SG writers thought that subtlety was the best way to deal with Sam and Jack's relationship, and they thought they were doing it well, but instead we ended up with nearly indiscernible dialogue like Affinity's "I wouldn't be here" scene.

I think that Pete HAD to have known that Sam wasn't completely 1) focused on him, or 2) honest with him. I think that he was so twitterpated with her that he was willing to accept whatever she was willing to give him, which is sad. That scene at the house when she breaks up with him is more 13 year old boy tantrum than an adult coming to terms with her decision, and that only makes it harder for her to deal with because she's realizing that she hadn't been honest with herself, either, about her relationship and her level of intimacy with Pete.

If you think about her relationships over the course of the show--the ONLY one that is mutually beneficial and understanding is the relationship between her and Jack. She was manipulated by everyone else--aliens because of technology or personal ability, or Pete because he was able to force her to tell him her "secrets" instead of trusting her to be her own person. Jack is the only man in the entirety of the show who truly respects her and doesn't try to sway her to choose him. He tries to get her to go elsewhere--I believe because he doesn't really think he's good enough for her--but he never once coerces her to choose him. They gravitate towards each other naturally enough, and if it weren't for their inner sense of honor and duty, they would have been together WAY before Threads.

Going back to Pete and that scene at the house, what he says, I believe, is indicative of him having gleaned clues over the course of their relationship that maybe she thought more highly of her CO than was seemly, but that she wasn't going to do anything about it. I think that he was hoping that once she'd made her choice to marry him--which was really the ONE thing he could do (other than have a physical relationship) with Sam that Jack couldn't--he thought he was home free. He was counting on that same sense of duty and loyalty to make her go through with the marriage, and was prepared to live knowing that he was truly second-choice.

[iiradned]

The Best of the Ship is . . .

The Lost City (2)

vs.

Tangent

[RadicalDreamer]

Second, I've always wondered how much Pete knew about Jack. It really irks me that while Season 7 and 8 was essentially a love triangle, Pete and Jack never actually met onscreen. Oh, how beautifully, awkwardly satisfying a scene with the two of them would have been!

Love triangles are generally hurtful to the characters, pointless and uninspired. The genuinely good love triangles I know in the many works of fiction I read/watched/played, I can count them on one single hand. I agree it would have been more interesting to have Sam's boyfriend interacting with Jack... for the angst but also because... this way Jack would be able to see what is wrong with Sam and Pete (Sally Malcolm wrote a fanfic like that last year). In canon, Jack barely could have an opinion on the guy (and his relationship with Sam) if he never met him. Unlike with Martouf or Joe. Though, there is no way Jack didn't hear about the background check thing... and there is no way that it didn't bother him.

But then in Threads, in the scene where Sam (finally!!!) kicks him to the curb, his line is: "I knew from the beginning. Guess I just thought that when you said yes ... you were worth the risk. ... I wish I could believe this had something to do with your father. You needed some time to sort things out. I guess all I can say is ... I hope you get what you want."

Now, please, if any of you have a good explanation of the implications of this scene, please let me hear it, because this part still confuses me to no end. I've never really understood Pete's line or Sam's response that she assumed that he would react differently.

To me, it only makes sense if he's saying that he knew that Sam was in love with Jack (or at the very least, in love with someone else). Maybe that's the conclusion he reached has he saw how uninvolved she was in planning their wedding or that she took over two weeks to say yes to his proposal (I mean, that should really tell you something). But really, that's all fan theory and speculation, because the series never gave any indication that Pete thought she was in love with someone else.

Like you said, there is only one explanation for this dialogue to make sense : he knew she didn't really love him (because she loved another *I sort of remember something like his ex wife having a thing with someone else too, that's why she divorced him... unless it's fanon... but in a way, that would explain Pete's behavior... denial mixed with possessiveness/desperation towards his new girlfriend*)... but hoped that would change eventually.

Honestly, I think the SG writers thought that subtlety was the best way to deal with Sam and Jack's relationship, and they thought they were doing it well, but instead we ended up with nearly indiscernible dialogue like Affinity's "I wouldn't be here" scene.

Well... there is subtlety (and in some cases, it enhanced scenes between Jack and Sam)... and then, there is cowardice/wanting to please everyone. The ship was not evenly developped by the writers (though the ship was written by them as soon as the show started... and the actors helped with developping the ship gradually). If they felt there was too much ship for anti shippers/slashers/the airforce taste, they would force Jack and Sam's relationship into limbo-land for the next episodes or season (hi, season 5... and 9-10 while I'm at it).

You don't get stuff like that in shows with writers who know where they are going with their characters and storylines (it's a struggle for tvshows, more than games and movies I feel... but there are shows like that where the story is focused, where relationships are planned and developped consistantly, where the writer/s even plan the ending in advance... I guess it's more common to see this nowadays though... tv shows that get the same treatment as movies). Sometimes, I think we're sort of lucky that Jack and Sam had Threads. And really... I think we got Threads because we shippers were vocal enough and a decent part of the fandom too. We were a demographic to please for the writers, but since they wanted to please non shippers and the airforce too... well, that's why we got cryptic pieces of dialogue sometimes (even the Trio deleted scene was potentially misleading *judging by what Sam says... either Jack and Sam are still waiting for Jack's retirement to get together... or she's counting on his retirement to bring them even closer... like allowing them to marry and have more time for each other than what a long distance relationship can allow*) and certain episodes and seasons (and books) that purposely ignored Jack and Sam's existence as a pairing. It's not just frustrating for us. Even some non shippers were annoyed by this. Kind of shows that trying to please everyone can backfire and that you should go for what you want/need to tell as a writer, for the story and characters' sake (and the fandom's sanity).

If Sam's boyfriend had been positively received by the audience/fandom, I'm afraid that... maybe Threads wouldn't have happened and our ship would have been definitively sunk. I mean, let's remember that Divide and Conquer itself almost didn't get made because someone in the writing staff wanted a Anise/Jack romance to happen for 6 episodes (at least, that's what I heard).
Also, talking about Divide and Conquer... I find it funny (and extremely relevant) that Threads summarised it at the beginning. Funny because... 4 more seasons passed between Divide and Conquer and Threads. That's quite the follow up.

The Best of the Ship is . . .

The Lost City (3)

vs.

Tangent

Cool season finale (best actiony season finale of the show in fact... at least, to me... some parts were epic). With nice ship in it. The only thing that was lacking was the kiss they took away from the narrative because... season 8.

[Susash]

The Best of the Ship is . . .

The Lost City (4)

vs.

Tangent

[fems]

Just out of curiosity, is anyone planning to go to the Stargate Convention in August in Chicago? I'm considering going since I've never been to one, even though Minnesota isn't exactly a hop, skip, and a jump away...

I think Mom in High Heels (Jack's Majorgirl here) is going and I've heard some others on Twitter about it too.

[Britta]

The Best of the Ship is . . .

Lost City (5)

vs.

Tangent

The end as Jack is put in stasis. Enough said.

No 'The' in 'Lost City'.

[SOtogether]

The Best of the Ship is . . .

Threads (7)

vs.

Descent

~

Threads is one of my favorite episodes. Sam finally comes to her senses (thank you, Jacob) and we get both angst:

http://an-c.dk/at/gateworld/artwork/...rs-700x394.jpg

and this:

http://an-c.dk/at/gateworld/artwork/...er-700x394.jpg

Great fanart!

[SOtogether]

Lost City (6)

vs.

Tangent

I love how Sam goes to visit him and then the whole team shows up as well

[hedwig]

But then in Threads, in the scene where Sam (finally!!!) kicks him to the curb, his line is: "I knew from the beginning. Guess I just thought that when you said yes ... you were worth the risk. ... I wish I could believe this had something to do with your father. You needed some time to sort things out. I guess all I can say is ... I hope you get what you want."

Now, please, if any of you have a good explanation of the implications of this scene, please let me hear it, because this part still confuses me to no end. I've never really understood Pete's line or Sam's response that she assumed that he would react differently.

To me, it only makes sense if he's saying that he knew that Sam was in love with Jack (or at the very least, in love with someone else). Maybe that's the conclusion he reached has he saw how uninvolved she was in planning their wedding or that she took over two weeks to say yes to his proposal (I mean, that should really tell you something). But really, that's all fan theory and speculation, because the series never gave any indication that Pete thought she was in love with someone else.

I've always thought Sam's comment about Pete reacting differently was in reference to the first night they spent together when he threw a hissy fit and walked out on her the next morning because she couldn't tell him what she did for work. She may have thought he'd throw a hissy fit when the broke up with him, and he didn't do that.

If they had given us a few more scenes between Sam and Pete (heaven forbid ) in which she talked about Jack or made reference to him, and we saw Pete being disturbed by it, then his comments would have made more sense. But we didn't. We didn't get to see any kind of interaction between missions or when not working, so that makes his comments inferring that she wanted somebody else make less sense.

[SamJackShipper93]

Lost City (7)

vs.

Tangent

Lost City wins if only for the moment where Daniel knocks on Jack's door super loudly, pokes his head in, and then really obviously looks toward Jack's bedroom!

No one will ever convince me that Daniel was oblivious about the Ship!

But, it's also got so many other great moments. Sam coming to Jack's house, the soft romantic music underscoring the engine room scene when Jack resigns, Sam demanding/begging "Jack" not to leave them, putting him in stasis, and the fact that they ended an incredible, action packed two-part episode with Sam's hand on the glass and Jack's unseeing eyes staring into hers.

AH! ALL OF THE ANGST!

[Cairistiona]

The Best of the Ship is . . .

Lost City (8)

vs.

Tangent

[Samantha-Carter-is-my-muse]

The Best of the Ship is . . .

Lost City (9)

vs.

Tangent

[RadicalDreamer]

If they had given us a few more scenes between Sam and Pete (heaven forbid ) in which she talked about Jack or made reference to him, and we saw Pete being disturbed by it, then his comments would have made more sense. But we didn't. We didn't get to see any kind of interaction between missions or when not working, so that makes his comments inferring that she wanted somebody else make less sense.

To be honest, there is a lot of stuff we didn't see in the show. It's not just the Sam and Pete relationship being half baked.
Take Cassie's character for example. She appears like... three times or something in 10 seasons... yet she's incredibly important to Janet, Sam AND Jack (and the rest of the team... but I'm talking about Janet, Sam and Jack in particular because they're obviously the central parental figures Cassie had/has).