Sam Carter /Jack O'Neill Ship Appreciation Thread 2.0

[JenniferJF]

i feel she wasn't wanting jack to so much take the 'lead', but actually SAY what he's feeling and thinking. every time she tried to talk to jack about her feelings, he'd basically shut her down.

just a different interpretation.

I agree. I think we're actually saying the same thing, just coming to different conclusions. Cause I agree, Sam was trying to get Jack to talk about his feelings and he'd basically shut her down. The difference is, I interpret Sam's not simply coming out and telling Jack her feelings, but hinting and hedging and trying and expecting him to tell her his first (and assuming he didn't have any when he didn't) as the very definition of wanting and expecting him to take the lead - he'd go first, and then she'd follow. And, really, the only times she even went that far were when the situation got desperate enough for her to be driven to it by urgent need.

But I also think she believed him to be enough of an 'alpha-male' that, if he'd really still loved and wanted her, he'd have simply told her.... And the fact he didn't, even when she gave him an opening to 'take the lead' and do so, was part of the reason she came to believe he no longer cared 'in that way.'

But, like you said, two different interpretations

I do think it was more his fear Though I agree he did need to wait for her before doing something overt for that reason. Which means, really, in Threads, it *had* to be Sam to make the first move. Which she did.. but in a way that interestingly still allowed him to ultimately retain 'the lead' in going to her in the infirmary. And that's why, really, the way it played out was probably best - Sam pretty much gave Jack the green light, letting him know she still loved him and wanted him and then, thanks to Kerry, he was still in a position to be the one to make the final choice and - even without the pressure of her standing there in front of him, totally of his own free will - make the decision to go into her and answer her unspoken question. I often think there ultimate relationship was stronger because it played out just this way.

regarding bolded: GUTTER!!

Actually, in total and complete seriousness, this is the very simple deeply-rooted instinctively biological reason I think men tend to take the lead and women tend to let them. And note I use the word tend here... I'm not saying it's always true. I just happen to think it's true in this case based on what we've seen of the characters.

[JenniferJF]

Anyone ever read the Wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan? I like the Nynaeve/Lan relationship - whoever is in charge in public must submit in public

Do you mean submit in private? I actually don't think that's far from the way it goes generally. But I also think Sam is, even if not officially, generally in charge in public...

On another note...

Spoiler:

I'm contemplating emailing Skydiver and requesting a s/n change. I love my name but I'm having such a hard time with it being connected with the Twilight books I know what I'd change it to... hmmm, any opinions?

Spoiler:

Oh.. definitely. Because - tbh - it does put one in mind of that series, and you really shouldn't have to work extra hard to prove yourself simply because of a coincidence of screen name. I also have a feeling, knowing Sky a bit, she'll completely understand...

[JenniferJF]

This is how I see their relationship as well. Can't really imagine anyone of them to lead in every situation.

I have to admit, when I say 'taking the lead', I don't mean all the time. I simply mean, everything else being equal and no one having preference or expertise one-way-or-the-other, in my experience, there generally is someone who tends to lead. And I think that person would be Jack based on what we've seen.

That said, I actually think this conversation started with One Very Specific Area in which Sam or Jack would be taking the lead... and in my experience (which I admit is relatively limited)... there's always one person in the couple who takes the lead there... Certain scenarios not-withstanding.

EDIT: And if I were more comfortable with this forum and it didn't keep sticking me at the beginning of every page when I try to go back instead of the post I was aiming for I swear I wouldn't have triple posted just now

[kusanagi]

I have to admit, when I say 'taking the lead', I don't mean all the time. I simply mean, everything else being equal and no one having preference or expertise one-way-or-the-other, in my experience, there generally is someone who tends to lead. And I think that person would be Jack based on what we've seen.

That said, I actually think this conversation started with One Very Specific Area in which Sam or Jack would be taking the lead... and in my experience (which I admit is relatively limited)... there's always one person in the couple who takes the lead there... Certain scenarios not-withstanding.

EDIT: And if I were more comfortable with this forum and it didn't keep sticking me at the beginning of every page when I try to go back instead of the post I was aiming for I swear I wouldn't have triple posted just now

I agree with you as well . It's all because of our brains and hormones. Usually men has this tendency to lead so naturally they (even if it's on a level of subconsciousness) try to do it. Women on the other hand are less dominant and don't try so hard to decide about everything. So i think it's true that in this relationship Jack in some situation will be a leader, but overall it's more like partnership. Does it make sense, 'cause I feel a bit dizzy

[Akamaimom]

Rachel500, you've hit the nail on the head. Sam couldn't have been happy with any of the other guys because they were wishy washy. And he needs someone who can kick his butt when he's being a doorknob.

[Regularamanda]

Rachel500, you've hit the nail on the head. Sam couldn't have been happy with any of the other guys because they were wishy washy. And he needs someone who can kick his butt when he's being a doorknob.

Exactly...which is why she jumped him in Broca Divide

[JenniferJF]

And he needs someone who can kick his butt when he's being a doorknob.

Or who is strong enough to admit when they both are... Which brings us back to that scene in Threads, cause that's a perfect example here, too. Even though I think she was trying to get him to act first, when he didn't... And despite the fact she was obviously scared and uncomfortable and way out of her element (and dressed like crap), she still overcame all that and went to go talk to him.

A weaker woman wouldn't have...

And you gotta wonder if part of Jack all along knew that, given in his last marriage he'd been allowed to sink into his depression until he nearly killed himself, perhaps he'd figured out, even if only subconsciously, that what he really needed was someone strong enough to face the tiger.

[kusanagi]

Again! I just couldn't help it. I think it's beautiful, and since we've got this new option added... just wanted to share

Edit: Video by burnsasgoauld

[Rachel500]

I actually don't think Sam expected during the period S4-S8 Jack to ever 'take the lead' and be the first one to come to her and state his feelings; that the closest she would get to that was his fishing invites and by S6 she was even beginning to question those given he was usually asking her when he knew she already had something to do.

I think she always knew the onus was on her to take the lead in terms of changing the status quo because of their military relationship and the power dynamic there (because I do think that Sam knew Jack couldn't just pursue her because of the complication of their working relationship regardless of his Alpha Male tendencies). For me, the problem she had was that every time she attempted to change the status quo it was post Pete, and Jack shuts her down (trying to let go, assuming she was happy). It's only when she explicitly and determinedly confronts him in the back-yard that he realises his responses are the ones keeping them stuck in neutral. I agree with Sally; I don't think Sam expected Jack to take the lead in beginning the conversation, but she did expect him to know what she was asking (because most of the times she does raise it post Pete are mired in hints and vagueness) and, if he wanted her, that he was enough of an Alpha male to let her know that. Which he does; in Threads.

In all honesty, I don't think we're miles apart in viewpoint - really just differing over the shades of it.

And I do agree in terms of bedroom/storage room manoeuvres, there is usually one person in a relationship who usually takes the initiative and, just given their sociological upbringing and backgrounds, I do think Jack would tend to be the one to do that (although I'm sure Sam has her moments, I can see it being more Jack generally speaking). But I think in all other aspects of their relationship: partnership these days.

[Nynaeve506]

Do you mean submit in private? I actually don't think that's far from the way it goes generally. But I also think Sam is, even if not officially, generally in charge in public...

Spoiler:

Oh.. definitely. Because - tbh - it does put one in mind of that series, and you really shouldn't have to work extra hard to prove yourself simply because of a coincidence of screen name. I also have a feeling, knowing Sky a bit, she'll completely understand...

In the WoT series Lan is Nynaeve's "warder" or protector (but she is the figure of authority) - in private though she is to do as he says (it's hinted at that this tends to be more of a "fishing" scenario) - they're both strong characters and so it's implied that if Nynaeve were to do something to disrespect Lan in public, she would have to deal with the aftermath in private - he would never publicly call her on it. Unfortunately the books don't give us much of the "behind the scenes" with them, we just get hints (which tend to be Nynaeve blushing furiously and since they are both incredibly passionate you can only imagine...) LOL So, I guess I was playing this on the way the conversation first started with "Sir" behind closed doors LOL

Name

Spoiler:

Nynaeve is actually my favorite character from the book and I'm thinking of using that for my screen name because it's a series of books that I respect - plus whenever my husband and I play a game online together my character is Nynaeve and he's Lan LOL. Then I'd tack on "506". Not sure though. Don't want you all to forget me I'd have to change my ff.net name too... and I'd pay to change LJ since I don't want to have to repost everything.

I have to admit, when I say 'taking the lead', I don't mean all the time. I simply mean, everything else being equal and no one having preference or expertise one-way-or-the-other, in my experience, there generally is someone who tends to lead. And I think that person would be Jack based on what we've seen.

That said, I actually think this conversation started with One Very Specific Area in which Sam or Jack would be taking the lead... and in my experience (which I admit is relatively limited)... there's always one person in the couple who takes the lead there... Certain scenarios not-withstanding.

EDIT: And if I were more comfortable with this forum and it didn't keep sticking me at the beginning of every page when I try to go back instead of the post I was aiming for I swear I wouldn't have triple posted just now

I agree

And also, it annoys me that it's not taking me to the first unread post when I select that from my control page. Also that it keeps remembering my multi-quotes. BUGS - we need to SQUASH THEM... where's my replicator weapon when I need it?

[JenniferJF]

I actually don't think Sam expected during the period S4-S8 Jack to ever 'take the lead' and be the first one to come to her and state his feelings; that the closest she would get to that was his fishing invites and by S6 she was even beginning to question those given he was usually asking her when he knew she already had something to do.

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I don't think Sam expected Jack to take the lead in beginning the conversation, but she did expect him to know what she was asking (because most of the times she does raise it post Pete are mired in hints and vagueness) and, if he wanted her, that he was enough of an Alpha male to let her know that. Which he does; in Threads.

In all honesty, I don't think we're miles apart in viewpoint - really just differing over the shades of it.

lol. TBH, I actually think all you and I are differing on is our definition of 'taking the lead'. Because the way I'm defining 'taking the lead', the simple fact she did expect him to know what she was asking and to be the first to explicitly say it instead of coming out directly with it herself is her handing him the lead. Because she knows he is an Alpha male, as you say. I don't think letting him 'take the lead' implies she must passively wait for him to suggest or begin every action. It may be more a matter of perception than anything else.

Or, IOW, the trick to being an Alpha female may be letting the Alpha male have the lead... He usually doesn't mind (or notice) the subtle tugging upon his leash suggesting directions...

*cough*

[Nynaeve506]

EDIT: ARGH ARGH I hate you multi-quote. I HATE YOU and we USED TO BE BEST FRIENDS :: kicks multi-quote ::

lol. TBH, I actually think all you and I are differing on is our definition of 'taking the lead'. Because the way I'm defining 'taking the lead', the simple fact she did expect him to know what she was asking and to be the first to explicitly say it instead of coming out directly with it herself is her handing him the lead. Because she knows he is an Alpha male, as you say. I don't think letting him 'take the lead' implies she must passively wait for him to suggest or begin every action. It may be more a matter of perception than anything else.

Or, IOW, the trick to being an Alpha female may be letting the Alpha male have the lead... He usually doesn't mind (or notice) the subtle tugging upon his leash suggesting directions...

*cough*

Sort of like "My Big Fat Greek Wedding" - "The man maybe the head, but the woman is the neck and she can turn the head any way she wants..." Cuz you know... if she wants to go fishing, well by golly, they're going fishing... even if it sounds like his idea

[Akamaimom]

Sort of like "My Big Fat Greek Wedding" - "The man maybe the head, but the woman is the neck and she can turn the head any way she wants..." Cuz you know... if she wants to go fishing, well by golly, they're going fishing... even if it sounds like his idea

This is how my marriage works!

But seriously, I just finished living the period between Heroes and Threads while I was writing a story from Jack's POV (it was a LOOOOOONNNGG story). I think that one important thing to consider about this time was that they had both failed so completely in their personal lives that neither of them wanted to take a chance again. And they were insecure about how things would end up, and didn't want to chance that. So, they allowed the outside world to affect them, rather than being proactive.

Once they were able to see that they HAD to take the chance, they did. And they were happy. And it was good (I project, because TPTB never told us they were or it was. . . TThhpt to them).

And BTW--as Jack walks out with the ZPM in the end of Moebuis 2 and tells Sam to pack to go fishing, he SOOO smacks her butt. Watch it. It happens. I swear.

[JenniferJF]

Sort of like "My Big Fat Greek Wedding" - "The man maybe the head, but the woman is the neck and she can turn the head any way she wants..." Cuz you know... if she wants to go fishing, well by golly, they're going fishing... even if it sounds like his idea

Though, frankly (and I should have thought of this earlier) from the 'a picture is worth a thousand words' department:

Because, all joking aside, while I wrote the subtext, I do tend to think based on their expressions the subtext is pretty accurate. The indisputable (I think) fact is, after years of 'asking', the way Jack got Sam to finally go fishing with him wasn't by asking her... He had to take away all other distracting doohickeys and make her go...

And in fact, since it's the only thing in the two timelines shown in Moebius which we know to be different, I've often wondered if it wasn't this final definitive act of Jack's which in some way led to the slightly different fishing scenes we end up with.

EDIT: Aka!! Another psychic buddy! Cause I swear I wrote this before I'd seen your entry right above roflmao

[Akamaimom]

he smacks her butt--right? am I right?

I'm right.