Tok'ra Thunk/Discussion/Appreciation thread

[MerryK]

I wish someone would write an AU where she survives. I wonder if Sha're would then have been saved? Hmmm...it could be interesting to play with. Perhaps I should go and post this idea as a plot-bunny. I've posted a few of my other ideas in various places, and I think someone said they would write one of them *hopes*

I'm actually writing this right now...it's turning epic, and I don't like to post any chapter of a long story until it's semi-finished so I don't know exactly when you'll be able to read it, but finishing it is my one goal this summer.

[Skadi]

I'm actually writing this right now...it's turning epic, and I don't like to post any chapter of a long story until it's semi-finished so I don't know exactly when you'll be able to read it, but finishing it is my one goal this summer.

Sounds good - I'm looking forward to it...and I agree on the not posting before it's closer to finished. There is nothing more annoying than starting to read something that either never gets finished or takes forever to update.

-Skadi

[CaptJanson]

MerryK - I will read your story!

[Skadi]

I got to thinking about something yesterday - we have seen many Tok'ra go undercover as Goa'uld, some of them even as minor System Lord's with Jaffa and all.
How do you think they handle this? Do they kill the Goa'uld on that planet/empire and the Jaffa willing believe that the next guy/girl with a resonating voice and glowing eyes will be a God worth worshipping - even though the former was KILLED (how very un-godly).

Or do they just put up an ad in 'Goa'uld News':

New System Lord starting up. Jaffa and human slaves wanted! My empire is still small, but one day it will surpass all other and it will be a glorious fight! I am a proven god - passed both eye-glowing, boom-box voice, and Goa'uld-tech use tests. Apply today on Sestus 7. Bow before your NEW God!

What do you think? This also begs the question; how gullible are these Jaffa? The Goa'uld get wounded, die, show lack of knowledge about various happenings in their empire, has failings, etc. and the Jaffa (and human slaves) STILL believe they are serving a god and trembles with fear.

-Skadi

[nebulan]

It's possible in come cases they came in, captured the goauld, extracted it from the host and replaced it with a Tok'ra going with the idea that the host would much rather be host to a Tok'ra than a Goauld and would probably die without a symbiote due to their age being extended by a sarcophogus. And if the host could live without the symbiote, they would find a way to switch hosts as soon as possible... they could pull a Dread-Pirate Roberts, ie, the old host calls the new host goauld for a while until everyone else is convinced, lol!

The whole thing about why the Jaffa believe they are gods is mostly out of fear. "Threshold" was a good episode about that since it flashed back to when Teal'c used to believe and showed his progression, I like that episode, it was a GOOD Jaffa episode (others I don't care for, lol!)

[Snotr]

It's possible in come cases they came in, captured the goauld, extracted it from the host and replaced it with a Tok'ra going with the idea that the host would much rather be host to a Tok'ra than a Goauld and would probably die without a symbiote due to their age being extended by a sarcophogus. And if the host could live without the symbiote, they would find a way to switch hosts as soon as possible... they could pull a Dread-Pirate Roberts, ie, the old host calls the new host goauld for a while until everyone else is convinced, lol!

The whole thing about why the Jaffa believe they are gods is mostly out of fear. "Threshold" was a good episode about that since it flashed back to when Teal'c used to believe and showed his progression, I like that episode, it was a GOOD Jaffa episode (others I don't care for, lol!)

The grab-the-old-host thing may work, sometimes at least - I never thought of that.
Somehow I doubt that is what they usually do, though. Jacob has done undercover, and Selmak stayed in him. Korra was undercover as well, and he can't have changed host, because Sam recognized him from before (eh - from Jolinar's memories).
Another problem is - what happens to the Tok'ras own host? Do they agree to be without their 'soul mate' for a while, then the Tok'ra jump back 'home' when the mission is over? I'm guessing the host wouldn't do so wonderful without the Tok'ra, after a full blending and all - wouldn't there be massive psychological issues? I also think it would be unpleasant/dangerous for the symbiote (Jolinar: it is possible to leave a host (alive), but dangerous. I will try, though.).
Well, the host DID chose to fight the Goa'uld and be Tok'ra, so perhaps he/she just waits patiently for the mission to be over (or for the symbiote to have everyone convinced that he/she wants a new host and takes their own host back). The symbiote is Tok'ra and may feel the danger is worth it, to win over the Goa'uld. I don't know.

Regarding the Jaffa - I agree with you, nebulan. They are raised to fear the Goa'uld, and have seen them do things they can't (because the Goa'uld has technology, and the Jaffa are not educated to know about it). They will fear the Goa'uld enough that they will believe they are gods. Probably they would just believe the 'new' god was more powerful, since he killed the old one, and the new is thus even more worth worshipping. We have also seen the Goa'uld kill any but their closest slaves and Jaffa, if they see something they shouldn't. Like the humans not picked for hosts in Children of the Gods, or if they have seen the Goa'uld fail in some way. Another thing is that many of the Goa'uld keep their hosts alive for millenia with the sarcophagus - thus appearing immortal. Even if the symbiote itself is long lived (8000-10000 years), it is not immortal. It just appears that way because it is living so much longer than a Jaffa or a human.

One problem I thought of is; what happens when the Jaffa learn that the Tok'ra exist? They can do the same things as the Goa'uld, but denies being Goa'uld. They also allow their hosts to speak, despite the Goa'uld claiming 'nothing of the host remains'.

-Snotr

[nebulan]

The grab-the-old-host thing may work, sometimes at least - I never thought of that.
Somehow I doubt that is what they usually do, though. Jacob has done undercover, and Selmak stayed in him. Korra was undercover as well, and he can't have changed host, because Sam recognized him from before (eh - from Jolinar's memories).
Another problem is - what happens to the Tok'ras own host? Do they agree to be without their 'soul mate' for a while, then the Tok'ra jump back 'home' when the mission is over? I'm guessing the host wouldn't do so wonderful without the Tok'ra, after a full blending and all - wouldn't there be massive psychological issues? I also think it would be unpleasant/dangerous for the symbiote (Jolinar: it is possible to leave a host (alive), but dangerous. I will try, though.).
Well, the host DID chose to fight the Goa'uld and be Tok'ra, so perhaps he/she just waits patiently for the mission to be over (or for the symbiote to have everyone convinced that he/she wants a new host and takes their own host back). The symbiote is Tok'ra and may feel the danger is worth it, to win over the Goa'uld. I don't know.

Regarding the Jaffa - I agree with you, nebulan. They are raised to fear the Goa'uld, and have seen them do things they can't (because the Goa'uld has technology, and the Jaffa are not educated to know about it). They will fear the Goa'uld enough that they will believe they are gods. Probably they would just believe the 'new' god was more powerful, since he killed the old one, and the new is thus even more worth worshipping. We have also seen the Goa'uld kill any but their closest slaves and Jaffa, if they see something they shouldn't. Like the humans not picked for hosts in Children of the Gods, or if they have seen the Goa'uld fail in some way. Another thing is that many of the Goa'uld keep their hosts alive for millenia with the sarcophagus - thus appearing immortal. Even if the symbiote itself is long lived (8000-10000 years), it is not immortal. It just appears that way because it is living so much longer than a Jaffa or a human.

One problem I thought of is; what happens when the Jaffa learn that the Tok'ra exist? They can do the same things as the Goa'uld, but denies being Goa'uld. They also allow their hosts to speak, despite the Goa'uld claiming 'nothing of the host remains'.

-Snotr

Agreed, I don't know if we know if they've ever done the host switching. I was running on the assumption with that theory that they have more symbiotes than hosts for the moment (like with Selmak ('the tokra'), Lantash ('last stand'), whatever random symbiote they had in dominion...) but yeah, I don't think they jump hosts casually, they must have been injured beyond repair (like martouf). Back before we discovered that what's-her-blonde-chick was Athena, I wrote up a little idea for a Tok'ra character who went undercover as Athena http://nebulan.deviantart.com/art/At...ddess-15006296 by infiltrating and replacing. Once infiltrated, the tok'ra worked things out so she could take a new host since her current one was ridiculously old, so she probably did a dread pirate roberts or something. yeah... that's all I ever did we that character idea.

We're most tok'ra undercover as minor goa'uld? So, it's not the human slaves/jaffa that they need to convince, it's the system lord they need to convince. (Selmak>Yu, Zarin>Ba'al, Khonsu>Anubis). I'm guessing that Yu saw that Selmak passed the qualifications that Skadi listed in her "classified ad" and didn't thoroughly check his references, lol! I mean, come on, don't they do a little research to find out if this guy is really loyal?

Remember that most Jaffa don't see the difference between a Tok'ra and a Goa'uld. I think, as stated before, the goa'uld's best defense against their jaffa rebelling was limiting their education, like outlawing reading and writing in the original movie which is whyyyy.... the battle of Dakara was the turning point, it proved to all Jaffa at the goauld were false gods or whatever... that struck me as lame as the ark of truth... good movie, silly plot device and anticlimatic climax... O.o

[CaptJanson]

I like your drawings of Athena, nebulan. Nice outfits!

[Snotr]

What do you guys think made Egeria become Tok'ra? It must be hard to have power, slaves, worshippers, flashy clothing, and a palace - and genetic memory telling you it's OK to enslave humans.
Then suddenly decide to start a resistance where you will be on the run for the rest of your hard and dangerous life, living in tunnels with others of your kind (despite the Goa'uld seeming to despise each other), wearing clothing that looks more like poor peasant clothing, and working hard, doing what your slaves did for you before.
I'm amazed! The Goa'uld that has chosen to become Tok'ra are impressive, and really worth admiring.

So, what made Egeria do this? I have sometimes seen fanfic writers speculate that she took a host before she were old enough to control her properly, and thus ended up talking to her, and then realizing how wrong the Goa'uld treated humans etc. Do you think this is what happened?

-Snotr

[CaptJanson]

What do you guys think made Egeria become Tok'ra? It must be hard to have power, slaves, worshippers, flashy clothing, and a palace - and genetic memory telling you it's OK to enslave humans.
Then suddenly decide to start a resistance where you will be on the run for the rest of your hard and dangerous life, living in tunnels with others of your kind (despite the Goa'uld seeming to despise each other), wearing clothing that looks more like poor peasant clothing, and working hard, doing what your slaves did for you before.
I'm amazed! The Goa'uld that has chosen to become Tok'ra are impressive, and really worth admiring.

So, what made Egeria do this? I have sometimes seen fanfic writers speculate that she took a host before she were old enough to control her properly, and thus ended up talking to her, and then realizing how wrong the Goa'uld treated humans etc. Do you think this is what happened?

-Snotr

I've always been impressed by her too. I think the "taking a host while young" could be part of it, but perhaps she just started thinking about it one day, and then over the years realised what they did was wrong? I don't know what make some people do that - but there is always some who does that, despite it being unlikely. I guess she is a little like Surak of Vulcan from Star Trek

[nebulan]

I've always been impressed by her too. I think the "taking a host while young" could be part of it, but perhaps she just started thinking about it one day, and then over the years realised what they did was wrong? I don't know what make some people do that - but there is always some who does that, despite it being unlikely. I guess she is a little like Surak of Vulcan from Star Trek

it's cool to see these characters that go against they're nature and become something better maybe she made friends with some humans. Goa'ulds can have friends, right?
.... ooooh, there's Kianna's Goa'uld! she was undercover as a human and befriended a human. maybe she was working undercover for some overlord against some other overlord. Can I call Kianna an honorary Tok'ra? lol, I guess she wasn't really against the goa'uld so it wouldn't fit. She just stood out amongst the Goa'uld due to her caring about humans.

[Skadi]

it's cool to see these characters that go against they're nature and become something better maybe she made friends with some humans. Goa'ulds can have friends, right?
.... ooooh, there's Kianna's Goa'uld! she was undercover as a human and befriended a human. maybe she was working undercover for some overlord against some other overlord. Can I call Kianna an honorary Tok'ra? lol, I guess she wasn't really against the goa'uld so it wouldn't fit. She just stood out amongst the Goa'uld due to her caring about humans.

Kianna's Goa'uld is an interesting person, yes. I always wished she would have lived. She were not a Tok'ra - yet, but I think she would have ended up becoming one, had she survived. She was certainly no longer a usual Goa'uld. There is hope for them yet! I like it when there is a Goa'uld who are not stereotypical - they are affected by what has happened to them in life, after all, so they would not all be evil megalomaniacs, despite their genetic memory and the sarcophagus (perhaps the Goa'uld in Kienna was never important enough to use the sarcophagus?)

Anyway, I would have liked them to explore her more, and perhaps see her slowly developing to a Tok'ra (but that means they would have had to show the Tok'ra as nice guys again, and actually care about them, and that didn't happen in later seasons *snif* - they were merely plot devices and useful redshirts to kill *double snif* - poor Tok'ra)

-Skadi

[Hathor_girl]

Yes, it would have been interesting to see how she developed.

[Skadi]

Do we know how many Tok'ra there are? - how many kids do a queen have in each batch? Looked like a lot, both in the 'Hathor' episode, and in the 'Cure' episode.

-Skadi

[MerryK]

Do we know how many Tok'ra there are? - how many kids do a queen have in each batch? Looked like a lot, both in the 'Hathor' episode, and in the 'Cure' episode.

-Skadi

Ooh, I'd guess about 20 or 30 in a batch...though maybe, like so many of the Tok'ra/Goa'uld characteristics, it's controllable. As to how many Tok'ra, I'd say probably anywhere from 300 to 1000—my guess is about 500.