Tok'ra Thunk/Discussion/Appreciation thread

[Skadi]

I'd love to try to do something... I have a vid in mind that I'd been thinking about for a while, it'd be Martouf/Lantash focused (I'll call the vid a form of art maybe?), but I'm not sure I could fix Sam in at all. Well, no, I mean, she'll definitely be in it, but I don't think more than a friendship capacity. It's a humor song, no romance to it... do you think it would qualify if Sam wasn't a main character and was only in it as a friend? I want to participate because I live and die by deadlines and I think I could get it done before Nov 1st, otherwise I'll never do it If I can't do something friendshippy than probably won't participate... I won't participate to win of course... but to give Martouf/Lantash and the Tok'ra more love!

YAY! Great idea! I look forward to seeing your vid, nebulan!

[CaptJanson]

Just looked at the poll at the top of this thread. I can see Jacob is the most popular Tok'ra. Why do you think that is? I am guessing some reasons include:

-he is from Earth
-the host is most often in control
-he is in many episodes
-even Jack likes him
-he's Sam's dad
-he's usually on Earth's side
-he's not a rival to Jack (as Martouf is, who otherwise also is in several episodes, is generally friendly to Earth and has generally the host in control - and is the second most popular)

Why is someone like Jolinar or Malek not more popular? They are both interesting and Malek even admits he's wrong and apologizes to Bra'tac - something the vast majority of people have problems doing. If people like the Tok'ra, then why do they mostly like the hosts? It seems to be that way.

Yeah, I know, I also have one of the popular Tok'ra as my favorite - but I actually like the symbiote more than the host (Lantash/Martouf). I do wish we heard both host and symbiote for all of them. More symbiote for Jacob and Martouf and less for Malek etc. Balance!

All said, I read somewhere that it is difficult for the actors to switch between two different characters as quickly as they would have to, in order to do both host and symbiote. They usually need time to 'be' the character and so most can't/won't do a role where they have to be two potentially very different characters with little time to change.
I can absolutely understand if that is the reason we don't see the switch more, since I guess it must be difficult/hard to do.

[BlueMushroom]

Well, Anise/Freya is my favorite I do agree with you, reading fic, it seems Jacob is popular/accepted even among those that otherwise hate the Tok'ra and I do believe the reasons you give are much of the explanation.

And I also believe I read the thing about the actors thinking it would be too difficult to do the switching back and forth. Sometimes they can probably do a scene change while they switch and so they get time to prepare (they also get the head-bow/eye-close time to prepare), but a few times they seem to change in mid-scene and that must be really difficult.
I think the only we have seen do this are Yosuuf/Garshaw, Martouf/Lantash, Anise/Freya, and Jacob/Selmak. What I remember only Martouf/Lantash and partly Anise/Freya do it in a conversation with no possibility for scene-changes and such, so Vanessa Angel and especially whomever plays Marty much be good actors

[nebulan]

Just looked at the poll at the top of this thread. I can see Jacob is the most popular Tok'ra. Why do you think that is? I am guessing some reasons include:

-he is from Earth
-the host is most often in control
-he is in many episodes
-even Jack likes him
-he's Sam's dad
-he's usually on Earth's side
-he's not a rival to Jack (as Martouf is, who otherwise also is in several episodes, is generally friendly to Earth and has generally the host in control - and is the second most popular)

Why is someone like Jolinar or Malek not more popular? They are both interesting and Malek even admits he's wrong and apologizes to Bra'tac - something the vast majority of people have problems doing. If people like the Tok'ra, then why do they mostly like the hosts? It seems to be that way.

Yeah, I know, I also have one of the popular Tok'ra as my favorite - but I actually like the symbiote more than the host (Lantash/Martouf). I do wish we heard both host and symbiote for all of them. More symbiote for Jacob and Martouf and less for Malek etc. Balance!

All said, I read somewhere that it is difficult for the actors to switch between two different characters as quickly as they would have to, in order to do both host and symbiote. They usually need time to 'be' the character and so most can't/won't do a role where they have to be two potentially very different characters with little time to change.
I can absolutely understand if that is the reason we don't see the switch more, since I guess it must be difficult/hard to do.

I guessed that would happen back when we were talking about starting this poll.

I think your reasons are dead-on Janson. I've got a couple more to add:

1-We see the most of him than any other Tok'ra and spend the most time with him when we see him. (according to IMDB 25 Episodes for Jacob/Selmak, 7 for JR Borne, Minus Secrets and Changeling, I dunno if there were other Jacob-only episodes, we're still way over Martouf/Lantash) That's HUGE! we get a lot more screen time, time to get to know him better, not to mention getting to know Jacob better helps us get to know Sam better who everyone loves, right? (I'm not the biggest fan of her, but I liked her relationships with others, like her relationship with her dad and later with Selmak also).

2-Sense of humor, both Jacob and Selmak had that. Sorry, in my mind the only other Tok'ra we saw with a sense of humor was Jalen. Maybe Martouf at times but to me he always seemed dry or mellow to me.

You're right Janson, balance is HUGE! I felt like the Stargate writers never gave us much chance with the symbionts for Lantash and Selmak, and not enough time with the hosts with the others! Not enough time getting to know them and how they were different from their host/symbiont As far as the switching, it would have been nice to maybe have a whole episode where Lantash was on a mission and Martouf was along for the ride, so Lantash was in control more often than Martouf.

Doing the switch between scenes might also look cheap to the audience, like they were trying to avoid using a special effect or something.

@Mushroom: we also saw Re'nal do the headbow thing in Last Stand when the symbiont was about to blow a gasket, the host jumped in to try to diffuse the situation. I liked that because the actess's accent was pretty cute and doesn't sound so good under the voice deepening thing.


I wonder who voted for Other Tok'ra, I wonder if they just voted to see the results or if they had someone in mind...

I'd be curious to see who come in at top if we took out Jacob/Selmak and Martouf/Lantash from the list.

[Petra]

Just looked at the poll at the top of this thread. I can see Jacob is the most popular Tok'ra. Why do you think that is? I am guessing some reasons include:

-he is from Earth
-the host is most often in control
-he is in many episodes
-even Jack likes him
-he's Sam's dad
-he's usually on Earth's side
-he's not a rival to Jack (as Martouf is, who otherwise also is in several episodes, is generally friendly to Earth and has generally the host in control - and is the second most popular)

I agree with most of your reasons, but the bolded one is just silly. Firstly, there are many characters that were "rivals to Jack" and they are still loved by fandom (Orlin, for one). I don't know anyone who wouldn't like Martouf because he was "Jack's rival" - and as a S/J shipper I think I know what I'm talking about In fact, Martouf just isn't considered to be a "rival" at all, because his feelings seemed to be pretty one-sided. *shrug* No offence to Marty/Sam shippers , I'm just saying how it looks like from S/J perspective.

Secondly, many shippers genuinely like Martouf/Lantash and those who don't usually find his interactions with Sam very squicky and abusive on his part (not that I agree); either way it has nothing to do with Jack or S/J ship and I'd appreciate if you didn't paint everyone with the same brush.

Why is someone like Jolinar or Malek not more popular? They are both interesting and Malek even admits he's wrong and apologizes to Bra'tac - something the vast majority of people have problems doing. If people like the Tok'ra, then why do they mostly like the hosts? It seems to be that way.

I love Malek. He's my third favourite Tok'ra ever, after Jacob/Selmak and Anise/Freya. I find him incredibly fascinating and it beats me why people tend to ignore him.

I have a theory about Jolinar though. I think that it's because we saw her only twice. The first time she acted like a Goa'uld pretty much all the time, and the second time we saw her only briefly in flashbacks, and in them she was doing something morally questionable too. There just wasn't enough time to show us - instead of just having Martouf mention it once or twice - what kind of person she was, what good did she do..? Instead we only saw her taking Sam's body without her consent, manipulating Jack, Daniel and Teal'c, having sex with Bynarr and lying to Martouf about it - it paints a pretty negative picture, don't you think?

I guessed that would happen back when we were talking about starting this poll.

Yeah, me too. That's why I voted for Anise

1-We see the most of him than any other Tok'ra and spend the most time with him when we see him. (according to IMDB 25 Episodes for Jacob/Selmak, 7 for JR Borne, Minus Secrets and Changeling, I dunno if there were other Jacob-only episodes, we're still way over Martouf/Lantash) That's HUGE! we get a lot more screen time, time to get to know him better, not to mention getting to know Jacob better helps us get to know Sam better who everyone loves, right? (I'm not the biggest fan of her, but I liked her relationships with others, like her relationship with her dad and later with Selmak also).

Yes, this. Thank you for saying it. Jacob - and to lesser degree Selmak - are simply the most fleshed out characters out of all the Tok'ra we ever met. We know the most about their host/symbiote relationship (they have a similar sense of humour, Jacob gave up coffee for Selmak), we know a lot about Jacob's background, we see their interactions with SG-1, and it's clear he's the only Tok'ra who's unconditionally trusted and liked by them; we see how Semak changed Jacob, for good, since their blending, we see them both supporting Earth even when the Tok'ra High Council doesn't exactly approve of it. All in all, Jacob/Selmak come across as "one of our own" instead of "one of them". Bra'tac is similarly perceived when it comes to the Jaffa.

2-Sense of humor, both Jacob and Selmak had that. Sorry, in my mind the only other Tok'ra we saw with a sense of humor was Jalen. Maybe Martouf at times but to me he always seemed dry or mellow to me.

Yep! I agree.

You're right Janson, balance is HUGE! I felt like the Stargate writers never gave us much chance with the symbionts for Lantash and Selmak, and not enough time with the hosts with the others! Not enough time getting to know them and how they were different from their host/symbiont

And again, I'm in complete agreement.

[CaptJanson]

Well, I did say 'some reasons include' meaning these are all possible reasons people could have for liking Jacob instead of Martouf - I in no way meant that everyone had to have ALL those reasons for it, nor had I expected anyone to think I meant that. Just that those were possible reasons.

As for that last reason (Martouf being a rival) I know that is not the reason for most Sam/Jack shippers to not like him (those that not like him). However, I do know several who DOES state that as their reason, and I have seen it on other forums as well, so they do exist. Besides, the majority of those who are Jack's rivals are not well-liked, Pete in particular is maligned very often - and I've seen several who don't like Narim either, for that very reason.

And yes, those people usually say it's because 'it is one-sided and besides they are stalkerish/creepy'. You see what you want to see. Except for Pete they are all from different cultures, and shouldn't be painted with the same brush as people from Earth (the US). What seems creepy or stalkerish to some, may be considered cute and normal for others. How are we to know the culture on for instance Tollan?

[Petra]

Well, I did say 'some reasons include' meaning these are all possible reasons people could have for liking Jacob instead of Martouf - I in no way meant that everyone had to have ALL those reasons for it, nor had I expected anyone to think I meant that. Just that those were possible reasons.

Okay. My apologies if I came off too hard.

As for that last reason (Martouf being a rival) I know that is not the reason for most Sam/Jack shippers to not like him (those that not like him). However, I do know several who DOES state that as their reason, and I have seen it on other forums as well, so they do exist. Besides, the majority of those who are Jack's rivals are not well-liked, Pete in particular is maligned very often - and I've seen several who don't like Narim either, for that very reason.

Seriously? I know such things happened in the past, on GW too, but I thought it was all, well, in the past. You must have been unlucky enough to run into some really weird S/J crowd. Not liking a character because s/he is perceived as a threat to your OTP is, at the risk of abusing this word, silly.

re: bolded. Well, that's true. But personally I think that writing for Sam's love interests left a lot to be desired and was far worse than writing of the guys' love interests. Tbh, I do have huge issues with how Pete and Orlin were written, and even if they had nothing to do with Sam I would still dislike them.

And yes, those people usually say it's because 'it is one-sided and besides they are stalkerish/creepy'. You see what you want to see. Except for Pete they are all from different cultures, and shouldn't be painted with the same brush as people from Earth (the US). What seems creepy or stalkerish to some, may be considered cute and normal for others. How are we to know the culture on for instance Tollan?

Believe me, it was discussed and dissected to death in the S/J Discussion thread, and the opinions are more or less evenly split. But Marty/Narim/Orlin's different cultures are always taken into account.

And to take it back on topic, what do we know about Tok'ra's customs when it comes to love?

[SamShipper]

Hi! Just putting in my two cents, because I ship Sam with a lot of different people, and have had the pleasure? of hearing many different arguments from the various groups...and I personally see interest from her towards at least Daniel, Jack, Martouf, Pete, Narim, Orlin, and perhaps Janet (not saying I ship all of those, see my sig! and I do ship some others that I don't see any canon interest in from her *grin*)

Yes, I agree with Petra that it was much worse in the past, this hating on characters for being in the way of someones OTP. Unfortunately, I've met my share of them, mostly from Sam/Jack shippers. I still meet them from time to time. Yesterday, I actually re-heard one of the opinions that I really find totally weird (and I've seen others who have mentioned seeing this opinion): namely "I'm so happy that creep Marty was killed off, otherwise Sam would not have given Jack a chance, and we all know he is the right one for her."

I mean, WTF? Not only is she happy to have a character killed, but she seems to think Sam would have preferred Martouf if he had not been killed! That's mean to Martouf, mean to Sam, and really nasty towards Jack as well, saying he doesn't have a chance unless the competition is killed off! How can someone have such an opinion?

That said, I absolutely don't think Sam/Jack shippers are worse than others (I'm one!) but they are many more, and the larger a group, the more likely there will be all kinds in it.

And now back to the topic - I think all we know about Tok'ra lovelife is:

-that they love as one (host and symbiote)
-they are passionate (said by both Martouf about Lantash and by Sam about Tok'ra in general, when they wonder why Kanan ended up falling in love after setting out just to seduce Ba'al's lotar to get information).

Presumably the culture otherwise varies, as the hosts are from very disseparate cultures, or maybe the Tok'ra have some kind of common culture.

We know too little about the Tok'ra in general. I think most of the problem is that we have only really seen them when the s*** is really on fire, and that does not make for either possibilities of showing humor or love.

For all we know they are sweet and loving people with a wonderful sense of humor, who love to party - but we never see that sides because they do it when they have the rare moment for it, home on the base, when SGC is not around

[maneth]

I really enjoy the eps with the Tok'ra. My favorite by far is Martouf/Lantash, I'm so sorry he got such a short run. I'd also loved to have seen more of Elliot/Lantash. My second favorite is Jacob/Selmak.

[BlueMushroom]

Hi! Just putting in my two cents, because I ship Sam with a lot of different people, and have had the pleasure? of hearing many different arguments from the various groups...and I personally see interest from her towards at least Daniel, Jack, Martouf, Pete, Narim, Orlin, and perhaps Janet (not saying I ship all of those, see my sig! and I do ship some others that I don't see any canon interest in from her *grin*)

Yes, I agree with Petra that it was much worse in the past, this hating on characters for being in the way of someones OTP. Unfortunately, I've met my share of them, mostly from Sam/Jack shippers. I still meet them from time to time. Yesterday, I actually re-heard one of the opinions that I really find totally weird (and I've seen others who have mentioned seeing this opinion): namely "I'm so happy that creep Marty was killed off, otherwise Sam would not have given Jack a chance, and we all know he is the right one for her."

I mean, WTF? Not only is she happy to have a character killed, but she seems to think Sam would have preferred Martouf if he had not been killed! That's mean to Martouf, mean to Sam, and really nasty towards Jack as well, saying he doesn't have a chance unless the competition is killed off! How can someone have such an opinion?

That said, I absolutely don't think Sam/Jack shippers are worse than others (I'm one!) but they are many more, and the larger a group, the more likely there will be all kinds in it.

And now back to the topic - I think all we know about Tok'ra lovelife is:

-that they love as one (host and symbiote)
-they are passionate (said by both Martouf about Lantash and by Sam about Tok'ra in general, when they wonder why Kanan ended up falling in love after setting out just to seduce Ba'al's lotar to get information).

Presumably the culture otherwise varies, as the hosts are from very disseparate cultures, or maybe the Tok'ra have some kind of common culture.

We know too little about the Tok'ra in general. I think most of the problem is that we have only really seen them when the s*** is really on fire, and that does not make for either possibilities of showing humor or love.

For all we know they are sweet and loving people with a wonderful sense of humor, who love to party - but we never see that sides because they do it when they have the rare moment for it, home on the base, when SGC is not around

Well, I don't ship Sam with anyone, so I don't have much vested interest in that However, I do have a cousin (who's not on GateWorld, so don't worry) who is VERY Sam/Jack, and your discussion reminded me of about a month ago when I watched an episode of (I think) NCIS: LA with her. Turns out Martouf was in the episode and the moment she noticed, she absolutely refused watching more of the episode, claiming it destroyed her enjoyment to watch 'Jack's creepy rival' on another show! LOL I've teased her for it later!

She's not a rabid fangirl otherwise (at least not that I know!), so people can have these opinions anyway.

Anyway, regarding Tok'ra love culture - I don't think we really know much. I don't know if the things SamShipper mentions is really culture as much as biology? I assume sharing strong feeling (like love) is an inevitable result of their symbioses (and very practical as well - wouldn't be very smart to want different people). Their passion seems to me to be biology as well.
Yes, I know Anise and Freya seem to want different people, but I've always thought about that as lust more than love. I'm sure they would have eventually settled for the same (or perhaps the same two...) when/if they fell in love.

That is actually something I would think we can infer...Tok'ra are likely to think it is perfectly OK to feel love for more than one person, since they usually love two (host and symbiote). I don't know if that means they are less prone to jealousy, since their passion would seem to work against them there.
I would also guess that their dangerous lives means that they would perhaps have a tendency to try to admit their feelings/interest earlier than (some of us) would, since they would want to take the chance for love when it is there.

All speculation, of course

[BlueMushroom]

Another thought, again without anything (or not much) to back it up

When a symbiote gets a new host, that host would probably usually enter into any existing relationship.
This because the symbiote would still love his/her mates, and the new host would soon do so as well.
The mates would still love the symbiote, and I seem to get the impression that they sometimes (in a way) don't separate completely between the two (comments here and there over the series seem to indicate they in some ways think of them as one, some ways as two). This would mean they would not have big issues against falling for the new host and probably think it normal to do so. While it is a new separate individual it is also in a way a continuation of the other.

I'm not saying it is so, but it would make sense and would be practical as well. I also think it would be kind of cute.

[BlueMushroom]

i really enjoy the eps with the tok'ra. My favorite by far is martouf/lantash, i'm so sorry he got such a short run. I'd also loved to have seen more of elliot/lantash. My second favorite is jacob/selmak.

welcome to the thread!

[Hathor_girl]

I really enjoy the eps with the Tok'ra. My favorite by far is Martouf/Lantash, I'm so sorry he got such a short run. I'd also loved to have seen more of Elliot/Lantash. My second favorite is Jacob/Selmak.

Welcome to the thread *hugs*

[Hathor_girl]

Another thought, again without anything (or not much) to back it up

When a symbiote gets a new host, that host would probably usually enter into any existing relationship.
This because the symbiote would still love his/her mates, and the new host would soon do so as well.
The mates would still love the symbiote, and I seem to get the impression that they sometimes (in a way) don't separate completely between the two (comments here and there over the series seem to indicate they in some ways think of them as one, some ways as two). This would mean they would not have big issues against falling for the new host and probably think it normal to do so. While it is a new separate individual it is also in a way a continuation of the other.

I'm not saying it is so, but it would make sense and would be practical as well. I also think it would be kind of cute.

It makes sense, but we have nothing to back it up - and I think it sounds adorable, with the continuation of the relationship and the taking over in an unbroken connection

[SamMartouf4ever]

Voted for Martouf/Lantash! Hi everyone! Haven't been here in a long time! Happy to see the Tok'ra discussions and thunking are going well! Keep up the good work, everyone!

And welcome to anyone (LOTS I hope) that's joined this thread since I was logged on last (early this year?)