Tok'ra Thunk/Discussion/Appreciation thread

[RingThing]

Do we know if the Tok'ra still produce the tretonin for the Jaffa or if the Jaffa have set up production of it? Or if maybe the Tau'ri produces it?

[techwork]

Do we know if the Tok'ra still produce the tretonin for the Jaffa or if the Jaffa have set up production of it? Or if maybe the Tau'ri produces it?

But what's the difference who makes. Its in the final version developed by tokra, and the Queen Egeria was lost during its development. I.e. tokra lost future. It ultimately symbionts tokra die of old and new will not. Is such a sacrifice is not worthy of respect?

[Skadi]

But what's the difference who makes. Its in the final version developed by tokra, and the Queen Egeria was lost during its development. I.e. tokra lost future. It ultimately symbionts tokra die of old and new will not. Is such a sacrifice is not worthy of respect?

Of course, it is equally worthy of respect. And yes, the Tok'ra developed the final version and lost their queen Egeria - the Jaffa should respect them a lot for that. It's still of interest who makes it, though, since I suppose the Jaffa won't be completely free until they can make it themselves, without being dependent on Tau'ri/Tok'ra. Have the Tok'ra managed to make a version which free the Jaffa of having to take it? (e.g. that gives the Jaffa an immune system?) I know the Tok'ra mentioned working on developing one.

Do we know how old symbiotes can live to be? Since Ra was AT LEAST 10000 years, we have to say 10000+ of course, but he may not have been at the limit.

A host can live for about 400 years or a little more, depending on when they become hosts, when they don't use a sarcophagus (Jacob, in the episode "Seth")

When did they develop the sarcophagus and does it extend the lives of symbiotes as well? All we know from the episodes is that it's less than 3000 years ago it was developed. Meaning we know symbiotes can live at least 7000 years without using it, probably more.

I really wish they would answer some of these things on the show!

[techwork]

Do we know how old symbiotes can live to be? Since Ra was AT LEAST 10000 years, we have to say 10000+ of course, but he may not have been at the limit.

A host can live for about 400 years or a little more, depending on when they become hosts, when they don't use a sarcophagus (Jacob, in the episode "Seth")

When did they develop the sarcophagus and does it extend the lives of symbiotes as well? All we know from the episodes is that it's less than 3000 years ago it was developed. Meaning we know symbiotes can live at least 7000 years without using it, probably more.

I really wish they would answer some of these things on the show!

RA used a sarcophagus. Jacob spoke about goa'uld Seth. The physiology of tok'ra and goa'uld is various. Even outwardly simbionts differ. And
7.11 SG-1
SELMAK
Thousands of years ago a Goa'uld found a device originally created by the Ancients. He determined its primary purpose was to heal. But it was so powerful, its effects on human hosts ultimately proved devastating. However, after much research and experimentation, the Goa'uld was able to use the technology to create the first sarcophagus

The exact time of creation is not specified

Meaning we know symbiotes can live at least 7000 years without using it, probably more.
quote please

[Skadi]

Both Tok'ra and Goa'uld symbiotes have individual differences, however, Tok'ra and Goa'uld as a whole share the same physiology (they are the same species). So what goes for one, goes for the other. All Egeria did was change their philosophy. The reason we hear that Seth could use a human host for 400 years, and Selmak only used hers for 200, would most likely be explained by the age of the host when he/she is taken. A Goa'uld does not have to rely on someone volunteering but can take a young host if he/she so desires.

It is true Ra used a sarcophagus, but they did never say when he started using it - hence my guess on the at least 7000 years lifespan without it, since Ra had lived about 10000 years and if he had used a sarcophagus as long as possible, he could have used it for max 3000 years.

In the episode with the healing cube from Honduras (Evolution I & II), Selmak says that Telchak found that Ancient healing cube thousands of years ago and after much research managed to make the sarcophagus. Daniel then says Telchak is the same as the Mayan god Chac. When Telchak=Chac discovered the sarcophagus, Anubis heard about it and went to war with him to get the device he had used to invent it. Telchak lost about 900 BC, since that is when the Mayans got the device from their god (because he had been killed and they took it afterwards, presumably). Hence, the sarcophagus was invented about 3000 years ago, assuming a war would take as long as 100 years - which is not unlikely despite Telchak being an obscure god and Anubis pretty powerful even then.

Selmak was never said to have died of old age, despite people seeming to assume that. All that was said was that she felt she had lived a good full life.

JACOB
It's Selmak. He's dying.

CARTER
Oh, my God, I'm sorry!

JACOB
It's okay. He's okay. He led a pretty full life.

And in Tok'ra I&II Selmak obviously assumes they will be together for more than a century and so does not expect to die. It is more likely she was simply sick for some reason or maybe got poisoned by something - even for symbiotes there must be things they can't heal on themselves.

Everything in the episodes are just too vague and we get to little information, meaning most things can be interpreted more ways than one. I really wish they would have said more about the Tok'ra and the Goa'uld. They are an incredibly interesting species.

[LtKatia]

Both Tok'ra and Goa'uld symbiotes have individual differences, however, Tok'ra and Goa'uld as a whole share the same physiology (they are the same species). So what goes for one, goes for the other. All Egeria did was change their philosophy. The reason we hear that Seth could use a human host for 400 years, and Selmak only used hers for 200, would most likely be explained by the age of the host when he/she is taken. A Goa'uld does not have to rely on someone volunteering but can take a young host if he/she so desires.

It is true Ra used a sarcophagus, but they did never say when he started using it - hence my guess on the at least 7000 years lifespan without it, since Ra had lived about 10000 years and if he had used a sarcophagus as long as possible, he could have used it for max 3000 years.

In the episode with the healing cube from Honduras (Evolution I & II), Selmak says that Telchak found that Ancient healing cube thousands of years ago and after much research managed to make the sarcophagus. Daniel then says Telchak is the same as the Mayan god Chac. When Telchak=Chac discovered the sarcophagus, Anubis heard about it and went to war with him to get the device he had used to invent it. Telchak lost about 900 BC, since that is when the Mayans got the device from their god (because he had been killed and they took it afterwards, presumably). Hence, the sarcophagus was invented about 3000 years ago, assuming a war would take as long as 100 years - which is not unlikely despite Telchak being an obscure god and Anubis pretty powerful even then.

Selmak was never said to have died of old age, despite people seeming to assume that. All that was said was that she felt she had lived a good full life.



And in Tok'ra I&II Selmak obviously assumes they will be together for more than a century and so does not expect to die. It is more likely she was simply sick for some reason or maybe got poisoned by something - even for symbiotes there must be things they can't heal on themselves.

Everything in the episodes are just too vague and we get to little information, meaning most things can be interpreted more ways than one. I really wish they would have said more about the Tok'ra and the Goa'uld. They are an incredibly interesting species.

I agree - that is also how I always interpreted the episode with Selmak dying. I think you're right regarding the sarcophagus. The timeframe sounds right. That's also how I've seen it interpreted other places.

[GeneralSelmak]

Yeah, the Tok'ra and the Goa'uld are the same species - whether they like it or not. We even know that some of the Tok'ra were former Goa'uld.

I'd also heard that Selmak died of old age, but after reading through a transcript of "Threads", I agree with Skadi - they say nowhere that is the case. I have no idea why people have gotten that impression. Perhaps because they say Selmak is "the oldest and wisest", but I guess there is always one who is that - even if the whole group consists of youngsters
All they say in "Threads" is the stuff about a full life. Which means having experienced a lot and had a good life I presume? English is not my native tongue.

I watched the "Stargate" movie a few days ago - there is nothing in it about when Ra started using the sarcophagus, but it doesn't matter much, as I seem to have read the movie is too different to be canon - Ra even looks more Asgard than Goa'uld, and the Horus guards are not Jaffa - they are human. And the Abydonians speak a different language, whereas everyone else speak English or Goa'uld...

[techwork]

tok'ra and goa'uld are similar as human and jaffa. Very similar but the differences are. If you think that the only difference in philosophy, you do not understand the physiology of Goa'uld and do not understand the meaning of the word - genetic memory. Even outwardly simbionts differ. 7.11 SG-1 and is Evolution and there it is not told how long ago has been made first a sarcophagus. And he obviously made long before the disappearance Telchak. 3000 figure is based on an erroneous assumption. Hator has been concluded in a sarcophagus for long before Ra has left the Earth 5000 years ago. (1.13 Hathor)

[joeedh]

tok'ra and goa'uld are similar as human and jaffa. Very similar but the differences are. If you think that the only difference in philosophy, you do not understand the physiology of Goa'uld and do not understand the meaning of the word - genetic memory. Even outwardly simbionts differ. 7.11 SG-1 and is Evolution and there it is not told how long ago has been made first a sarcophagus. And he obviously made long before the disappearance Telchak. 3000 figure is based on an erroneous assumption. Hator has been concluded in a sarcophagus for long before Ra has left the Earth 5000 years ago. (1.13 Hathor)

I'm not sure if you can debate the physiology of Goa'uld or Tokra symbiotes. It seems the writers have made a number of reversals in this area; e.g., in the second episode of the series a Goa'uld "sheds" most of its body, but this is never mentioned again. I suspect the writers dropped this aspect of the Goa'uld. Originally Tokra were said to need hosts immediately after their old hosts die; while later in the series you learn they can actually sustain the life of the symbiote for some time while they search for a host. The appearance of the symbiote changes a number of times over the series, mostly due to advances in special effects.

Anyway, the Tokra and the Goa'uld are the same, in the sense that both were spawned by Goa'uld queens, genetically tailored to take human hosts (I believe the first episode with Hathor explains this) and with the full genetic memory of their queen mothers. I don't know if you could argue that Egeria changed her children's genetic structure or whatnot, but from what we see on the show they are the same species.

[techwork]

Anyway, the Tokra and the Goa'uld are the same, in the sense that both were spawned by Goa'uld queens, genetically tailored to take human hosts (I believe the first episode with Hathor explains this) and with the full genetic memory of their queen mothers. I don't know if you could argue that Egeria changed her children's genetic structure or whatnot, but from what we see on the show they are the same species.

Tok'ra could not think otherwise than thought goa'uld if not this change. And you should look more closely
2.12 Tokra
6.10 Cure
Simbiont tokra passes through the mouth and therefore has a simpler structure. He did not have emmm wing cutters to cut the skin. Perhaps Egeria deliberately did so to deprive she children an opportunity to forcibly seize host. Artificial respiration in that time exactly did not do.

[Tiger]

Yeah but Lantash was very weak when entering the soldier (name forgotten). So perhaps they can only be sustained for a short term until they finally just die. So it really isn't 'healthy' for them to be without a host.

[techwork]

Yeah but Lantash was very weak when entering the soldier (name forgotten). So perhaps they can only be sustained for a short term until they finally just die. So it really isn't 'healthy' for them to be without a host.

Lt. Elliot ....

Lantash was heavy damaged after the death of Matouf and research technology zatarc. His life was maintained artificially. This is not once makes clear by Ren'au. 5.15 "Summit Part 1"

[Hathor_girl]

tok'ra and goa'uld are similar as human and jaffa. Very similar but the differences are. If you think that the only difference in philosophy, you do not understand the physiology of Goa'uld and do not understand the meaning of the word - genetic memory. Even outwardly simbionts differ. 7.11 SG-1 and is Evolution and there it is not told how long ago has been made first a sarcophagus. And he obviously made long before the disappearance Telchak. 3000 figure is based on an erroneous assumption. Hator has been concluded in a sarcophagus for long before Ra has left the Earth 5000 years ago. (1.13 Hathor)

Remember the discrepancy between the movie and the series - Ra did not leave Earth quite so long ago, though I think the figure varies.

Regardless, Hathor hasn't been in the sarcophagus for more than 2000 years.

O'NEILL
How is she a Goa'uld?

TEAL'C
She could not have come through the Stargate. We would have been alerted.

DANIEL
She's been imprisoned in stasis on Earth for almost two thousand years.

O'NEILL
(Raises his eyebrows in disbelief)
Is…mental illness contagious?

DANIEL
(Ignoring O'Neill)
General Hammond, I think she is Hathor. Or at least the Goa'uld that took on the persona of Hathor.

So 2000 years matches up quite nicely within the possibly 3000 years since the development of the sarcophagus. Yes, we have no way of knowing the time frame for sure, but it's the best estimate I've seen for it.

As for the symbiotes - they change appearance and even colour of the blood depending on what the special effects guys took a liking to that day, so I think we should ignore that. We have seen Goa'uld with red, blue, and even white blood - as well as red, amber, pale red and almost no eyes. Two eyes and four eyes. And this is just Goa'uld - not Tok'ra. If you pay attention while watching the episodes, they never say there is any difference between the Tok'ra and the Goa'uld except for their genetic memory. They actually say they are otherwise the same.

As for the fins - Tok'ra have them as well. Skadi - please repost the symbiote comparison pics you posted a while ago. Both Ocker and Lantash have them.
I think Selmak is the only difference, and that is probably only because of filming technical issues - would be hard to film one of those huge symbiotes like Lantash or the Goa'uld Hathor holds, go into someones mouth

[techwork]

Remember the discrepancy between the movie and the series - Ra did not leave Earth quite so long ago, though I think the figure varies.

Regardless, Hathor hasn't been in the sarcophagus for more than 2000 years.

Hehe simply - 8.19 8.20 Moebius, 2.18 Serpent's Song go and look

As for the symbiotes - they change appearance and even colour of the blood depending on what the special effects guys took a liking to that day, so I think we should ignore that. We have seen Goa'uld with red, blue, and even white blood - as well as red, amber, pale red and almost no eyes. Two eyes and four eyes. And this is just Goa'uld - not Tok'ra. If you pay attention while watching the episodes, they never say there is any difference between the Tok'ra and the Goa'uld except for their genetic memory. They actually say they are otherwise the same.

Ohhh yeeaahh especially Jack O'Neill

As for the fins - Tok'ra have them as well. Skadi - please repost the symbiote comparison pics you posted a while ago. Both Ocker and Lantash have them.
I think Selmak is the only difference, and that is probably only because of filming technical issues - would be hard to film one of those huge symbiotes like Lantash or the Goa'uld Hathor holds, go into someones mouth

Heh You do not thought that maybe Lantash not a descendant Egeria?

[SamShipper]

Hehe simply - 8.19 8.20 Moebius, 2.18 Serpent's Song go and look

Ohhh yeeaahh especially Jack O'Neill


Heh You do not thought that maybe Lantash not a descendant Egeria?

Stepping into a discussion I probably would rather not, given how little information there is, and given that they (the writers) seem to change their mind about a gazillion times...

If you are thinking of this quote from "Serpent's Song", then they are talking about Apophis who will continue to get weaker and die if not getting into a sarcophagus BECAUSE HE IS BADLY WOUNDED. It's like saying a human will continue to deteriorate and die if not treated at a hospital. It has nothing whatsoever to do with how he would otherwise react. Later Martouf says that the host will age (they are talking about the host) without access to a sarcophagus, because the symbiote is not well enough to do anything (damage) and because the host has been Apophis's host for a long time.

FRAISER
Without access to a sarcophagus, the Goa'uld body will continue to deteriorate, so we're looking at days, weeks, certainly.

CARTER
This kind of torture wasn't designed to extract information, it's a method of execution.

O'NEILL
So, what does he really want?

DANIEL
You heard him yourself. He wants sanctuary.

I don't know why you mention "Moebius I&II", because we don't see the sarcophagus in those episode? Nor is it mentioned?

As for your comment about Lantash not being Egeria's son - we have no knowledge of who is and who isn't born of Egeria, but if we do know that very few Goa'uld have ever turned (according to the semi-canon roleplaying books, they are Garshaw and Jolinar - recognizable from the "of" somewhere - Belote/Malkshur). Do you think Ocker is also not born of Egeria? He had nice big fins. The only Tok'ra we have seen who hasn't had visible fins are Selmak - you can just as well argue that SHE is the one who isn't Tok'ra originally. That might even make sense - given that she is the oldest - perhaps she was a friend of Egeria who turned Tok'ra with her. But - we know so little