Daniel Jackson Discussion and Appreciation

[FooledAgain]

Hi,
I'm new here (that is, on this thread)

I am right now in the middle of season 8 (although I did watch season 9 and the end of season 8 before, only that it was before I saw the entire series in order).
Unfortunately, I didn't have the time yet to read all 98 pages...just wanted to say how much I admire the character of Daniel Jackson. I tend to think that he is the most interesting character on the show...allthough I love Sam too. And Jack. And Tealc ...
Anyway, I just LOVE him

[JessM]

Welcome!

On the subject of flaws, when Sam was trying to convince Daniel to come home after he descended, she said if he had one fault it was that he cared so much about helping people that it tore him up when he couldn't. Paraphrasing. We've already made a list of other flaws, but would you count this as one? Of course, caring and wanting to help and feeling for others isn't a bad thing. But, can you care too much? Does the amount of caring ever interfere with actual helping? And, does Daniel fit the bill?

Thank you!

I'm not sure if I could count that as a flaw, but speaking from personal experience it seems that those who care too much can only get burned...or hurt... Some can see it as a weakness (though I necessarily do not) and exploit it. In a way, you end up hurting yourself. I suppose that sounds kind of selfish. I don't know if I could say that Daniel cares too much, but he does seem to care a lot more than others would in some circumstances. I wish I could think of some examples, but off the top of my head I'm coming up with nothing at the moment.

[JessM]

I agree about Full Circle. Giving Anubis the Eye of Ra was a big mistake, and I don't think he should have assumed he could handle Anubis if (and he should have expected it) he backed out on his word. I thought it was overconfident of Daniel to proclaim that nothing would happen to the people of Abydos.

And, very interesting theory about wanting to do good being a fatal flaw. I like the idea of a characters strengths being their weaknesses if they carry them too far or in the wrong circumstances.

Ah, that's one of the things I was thinking of, but I was drawing a blank there... I agree about Full Circle, too.

[JessM]

I like that, his 'fatal flaw' being that he cares too much. He just doesn't learn, does he? He let his believe that all people are generally good inside or could be reasoned with cloud his judgement.

I think the best recent episode to demonstrate this is Ethon.

Spoiler:

I mean, he was betrayed in the very beginning, the man he tried to talk to apparently killed his friends in cold blood, after that he still try to reason with the guy.. and he was betrayed a second time when he talked Mitchell from blowing the weapon up. He still thought the two people could work things out, but of course they don't.

Did he learn anything from this? I love him because of his inherent believe in people.. but he can't let that get in the way where he could get his friends KILLED. It's not like he was never betrayed before this.. so.. should I admire him because of his ability to trust people? Well, I can't help it.. I think I love him because of it.

ETA: spoiler tags! Sorry!

That's a good point. Even though Daniel has changed quite a bit over the years and has become less naive than he was in the early seasons, I think he still retains a bit of that naivete (sp?), as that example shows. It's as if he gives people too much credit sometimes. Not saying he should be suspicious of *everyone's* intentions, but it does show how things can blow up in his face from time to time.

Well, the second spoiler certainly seems to be good news, imho.

[JessM]

Nyxlily, I think the Ethon stuff should be in spoilers. And, yes, I think Daniel should be admired for his ability to care. In itself, it's not a bad thing and I think it's helped a whole lot. But, when it gets taken too far or blinds him or interferes with actually helping someone (maybe caring so much for one it makes him forget the bigger picture that could cause more problems) than it becomes a problem.

Agree with that. I definitely admire his ability to care, but it can be taken too far sometimes.

[JessM]

Hi,
I'm new here (that is, on this thread)

I am right now in the middle of season 8 (although I did watch season 9 and the end of season 8 before, only that it was before I saw the entire series in order).
Unfortunately, I didn't have the time yet to read all 98 pages...just wanted to say how much I admire the character of Daniel Jackson. I tend to think that he is the most interesting character on the show...allthough I love Sam too. And Jack. And Tealc ...
Anyway, I just LOVE him

Welcome, FooledAgain! I'm new here, too, and I find this a very nice place.

[FooledAgain]

Welcome, FooledAgain! I'm new here, too, and I find this a very nice place.

Thanks!

[Pitry]

That's a good point. Even though Daniel has changed quite a bit over the years and has become less naive than he was in the early seasons, I think he still retains a bit of that naivete (sp?), as that example shows. It's as if he gives people too much credit sometimes. Not saying he should be suspicious of *everyone's* intentions, but it does show how things can blow up in his face from time to time.

*Throws self into discussion*
Hmm... but did he, completely, really?
I guess from here it's spoiler tags for the second half of season 8-season 9, so be warned.

Spoiler:

I'm not sure these bits of naivete on Daniel's part on Ethon are really that - everything from his ascension forward, and especially the ending of seaosn 8 and season 9 has led me to believe it's not Daniel really believing, but rather believing he has to believe.
I'll try and explain.
Since his ascension he's had to face with one disillusioment after the other. True, some of it happened before. Sha'uri's death, for example, Sarah - you cna see it in Meridian, methinks. It looks like he does find some odd sort of comfort in the thought of death, take away his defences of "everything's going to be okay" and "people are inherently good", and you get some of the things he says there. Then he's having to deal, not necessarily his ascension but what he learned of himself in Full Circle, Orpheus and the likes. The main differnece in Daniel after his descension is that he seems to be unwilling to play it by the rules anymore, when he disagree with them. But he still has some sort of naivete - he still believes the Ancients are right. That's taken away in Threads - I know I came out of this episode feeling he no longer has faith in them - you can see it in Origin, too "I didn't think they did anything for us" - that does seem, in a way, the last bit of naievety that's taken away from him, doesn't it? The world isn't just, ascended beings aren't "good"... and from then on - I guess I'm focusing more on his conversation with Jack - he did admit that he's scared. Why scared? Not because he's never been scared of the Goa'uld before, for Sha'uri, etc. Because now he doesn't really believe they're going to win this one. I guess that's also how I see Ethon - he tries to believe them. He wants to believe them. But you can see in the "catatonic" bit before he jumps off with the "Oh, Prometheus has beaming technology" - it's like he needs to remind himself of that, it no longer comes in naturally. Perhaps again in Camelot - he's trying to talk to the Orii warriors, but from his own shrug in response to Mitchell's question on whether it's going to work or not it doesn't seem like he believes it will. He just believes he has to try.

Maybe this belief he has to try can also be seen as some sort of naivete. But for me naivete connects with hope, and I think that's something Daniel lost in the last years, together with his naivete.

[Piratejenna]

*Throws self into discussion*
Maybe this belief he has to try can also be seen as some sort of naivete. But for me naivete connects with hope, and I think that's something Daniel lost in the last years, together with his naivete.

The thing is - it's very easy to care, and have hope, when you are young. It's almost as though humans are predisposed in their early years to be curious and experimental and to explore and to feel. It's easy to be passionate and idealistic, and you have the energy to back it up and the innocence to believe you can make a difference. As you grow older, life slaps you in the face, the failures build up, and the energy dissipates. At that stage, most people retreat. They either become angry, or cynical, or apathetic, or resigned, or they focus their feelings on the small parts of life where they still feel they can make a difference. Daniel's one of the few, special, people who resist this. As he gets older, he's had to make a choice - whether to let his experiences drag him down, or continue caring and believing he can make a difference. Yes, the older Daniel has changed. He's no longer following his youthful instincts and going with his natural idealistic flow. Instead - he's consciously choosing to care. He's choosing to retain some of his idealism in the face of harsh reality. Daniel doesn't have the external prop of Duty that the military characters have. He has to find his own motivation to carry on. I don't think he's naive, and I don't think he has lost his idealism or his hope. I think he is a man who has chosen to remain true to his younger self, and stayed in touch with the things that drove him from the start. But through choice and self-awareness - he's taken the harder path.

I think it's an amazing tribute to Michael's quality as an actor that we're able to have this type of discussion. From commentaries and interviews, it's obvious that TPTB, influenced by RDA's own preference, took a deliberate decision in season 1 to avoid character development. Partly because RDA didn't want to carry psychological baggage from one episode to the next, and partly because of the idiocies of syndication which meant the show was often aired out of order, they took a decision that the characters should always be instantly familiar and understandable no matter what season it was. This was certainly successful in making Stargate a very accessible show, but it was at the price of character depth. Despite that environment, MS kept working like a traditional theatre-trained actor - looking for Daniel's motivation and development, and enabling him to grow in the nuances of the script and performance. I suspect one of the reasons MS is so happy now is because he finally has allies on set - both BB and CB are very character-oriented and are passionate about psychological consequences impacting on their performance. So while it's easy to feel a pang of nostalgia for young idealistic Daniel, I love looking at where he's been and where he's going because it's rooted in a real sense of the truth of life. We all grow older, and consciously or unconsciously, these choices - whether to take the easy road or the hard one - come to us all.

[Pitry]

You make some very good points, Piratejenna.

I agree that Daniel choose to still care, still be an idealist - but exactly as you said - "But through choice and self-awareness - he's taken the harder path." I guess that was, in a way, some of my point - when he was younger he really believed those things. Now he chooses to believe them. IT does leave room for the cynic in there, that very choice. And I think that does also leave room to that lose of hope I was talking about earlier - a lot of what drove Daniel at the beginning was his hope. His hope to save Sha'uri, his hope to get rid of the Goa'uld... it's that very conscious decision to continue hoping and continue believing that would hint it doesn't come as easily as before.

I've been thinking with season 9, especially, about what an interesting symmetry there is between Teal'c and Daniel on that level. Teal'c started the show the hope-less warrior, that joins in with SG1 - not because I think he believed he could make a difference, but because he believed he had to try. As more and more Jaffa came to see his way, more and more Jaffa got ocnvinced, and more and more Goa'uld died - cough, and seeing Apophis die twice or so - he gained hope. He'd seen death and destruction from the day he was born. He never had that hope or innocence. And now he believes the just will ulitmately win, that those who have the truth on their side will "set it free". Daniel, to me, is the exact opposite.

I don't think I agree with you about the character develpment issue. I do see character development for all 4 leads. True, you see more of it with Daniel and Teal'c than Jack and Sam - but they have changed and evolved over the years, too. I think it's more where the character was coming from - that exact same extreme of the naieve youth or the hopeless warrior - that made these two the more easily developed. Jack and Sam dind't have their beliefs challenges as often or as much as Teal'c or Daniel... but I guess that would also depend on how you define character development, because, quite funnily, I've seen more than one definition of that, and they don't always agree

[Dani347]

*Throws self into discussion*
Hmm... but did he, completely, really?
I guess from here it's spoiler tags for the second half of season 8-season 9, so be warned.

Spoiler:

I'm not sure these bits of naivete on Daniel's part on Ethon are really that - everything from his ascension forward, and especially the ending of seaosn 8 and season 9 has led me to believe it's not Daniel really believing, but rather believing he has to believe.
I'll try and explain.
Since his ascension he's had to face with one disillusioment after the other. True, some of it happened before. Sha'uri's death, for example, Sarah - you cna see it in Meridian, methinks. It looks like he does find some odd sort of comfort in the thought of death, take away his defences of "everything's going to be okay" and "people are inherently good", and you get some of the things he says there. Then he's having to deal, not necessarily his ascension but what he learned of himself in Full Circle, Orpheus and the likes. The main differnece in Daniel after his descension is that he seems to be unwilling to play it by the rules anymore, when he disagree with them. But he still has some sort of naivete - he still believes the Ancients are right. That's taken away in Threads - I know I came out of this episode feeling he no longer has faith in them - you can see it in Origin, too "I didn't think they did anything for us" - that does seem, in a way, the last bit of naievety that's taken away from him, doesn't it? The world isn't just, ascended beings aren't "good"... and from then on - I guess I'm focusing more on his conversation with Jack - he did admit that he's scared. Why scared? Not because he's never been scared of the Goa'uld before, for Sha'uri, etc. Because now he doesn't really believe they're going to win this one. I guess that's also how I see Ethon - he tries to believe them. He wants to believe them. But you can see in the "catatonic" bit before he jumps off with the "Oh, Prometheus has beaming technology" - it's like he needs to remind himself of that, it no longer comes in naturally. Perhaps again in Camelot - he's trying to talk to the Orii warriors, but from his own shrug in response to Mitchell's question on whether it's going to work or not it doesn't seem like he believes it will. He just believes he has to try.

Maybe this belief he has to try can also be seen as some sort of naivete. But for me naivete connects with hope, and I think that's something Daniel lost in the last years, together with his naivete.

I don't know if my response needs to be in spoilers, since I don't think I'll reference any episodes, but since it responds to this, I'll put it behind the bars, just in case.

Spoiler:

I think that's a really sad way to look at it, but it makes sense. It's kind of like Mulder. He wants to believe. And, I agree there was a sense of disillusionment with Meridian. Like he just couldn't fight, because he just couldn't see the use of fighting anymore.

But, it makes me sad to think Daniel losing his hope. Especially since I think he still brings hope to others -thus the last part of my sig line

Season 10 spoilers

Spoiler:

And, what is Daniel becoming a prior going to do to him?

It's good that Daniel still does choose to care, that he still wants to, even though it is hard. It says he hasn't totally lost those qualities I love and that are who he is. It's just he reaches them differently.

[JessM]

Spoiler:

I think that's a really sad way to look at it, but it makes sense. It's kind of like Mulder. He wants to believe. And, I agree there was a sense of disillusionment with Meridian. Like he just couldn't fight, because he just couldn't see the use of fighting anymore.

But, it makes me sad to think Daniel losing his hope. Especially since I think he still brings hope to others -thus the last part of my sig line

I agree with you on that. I like to think that the disillusionment with Meridian reflects how Michael felt about his position in the show. From the interviews I've read, he wasn't happy with some of the directions of the show, especially the ones that dealt mostly with the NID. I can't remember exactly what was said, but he said it was like Daniel wasn't playing an important part in the stories, like he almost became wallpaper - just there for the sake of being there.

Season 10 spoilers

Spoiler:

And, what is Daniel becoming a prior going to do to him?

That's a really good question, and it's one that worries me a bit. Season 10 spoilers here

Spoiler:

Is Daniel now going to be siding with the enemy on the show? I don't see how they can bring him back to the way he was. I keep thinking of Gerak at the end of Fourth Horseman Part 2, and it worries me even more. I'd hope they can bring him back in some way, and I'd tend to hope that it would be an experience almost like the way Shifu taught him in that dream in Absolute Power.

It's good that Daniel still does choose to care, that he still wants to, even though it is hard. It says he hasn't totally lost those qualities I love and that are who he is. It's just he reaches them differently.

Very well said.

[Dani347]

That's a really good question, and it's one that worries me a bit. Season 10 spoilers here

Spoiler:

Is Daniel now going to be siding with the enemy on the show? I don't see how they can bring him back to the way he was. I keep thinking of Gerak at the end of Fourth Horseman Part 2, and it worries me even more. I'd hope they can bring him back in some way, and I'd tend to hope that it would be an experience almost like the way Shifu taught him in that dream in Absolute Power.

Spoiler:

The thing is, they can easily write a way out of the whole going up in flames. They could have the Ancients find a way to off set it, and have them change their no interference policy, or SG1 could find something on their own, or -and I wouldn't like this- Daniel would use some super powered ascended mojo to stop it. As for Daniel becoming a prior, this really isn't any different from Teal'c siding with Apophis in whatever episode it was with the flashbacks. I don't see him just saying, "screw it, I'm taking up with the Ori. He's either doing because he's thinking it will help beat them -in which case he wouldn't be siding with the enemy anymore than an undercover agent infiltrating a crime organization could be called siding with a criminal- or he'll have somehow been convinced that the Ori are right. And, I'll see him as being deluded, he might have to perform some actions that are bad, but I won't see him as being bad. He won't be being evil willingly, knowing they're evil and choosing to be. Like I said, it sounds like it could be like Teal'c, and I didn't see him losing his honor and nobility. It was still there, and had to be brought back to light. They had to show him who he really was. I'd say this could be the same thing.

[1DanielForMe]

I agree with you on that. I like to think that the disillusionment with Meridian reflects how Michael felt about his position in the show. From the interviews I've read, he wasn't happy with some of the directions of the show, especially the ones that dealt mostly with the NID. I can't remember exactly what was said, but he said it was like Daniel wasn't playing an important part in the stories, like he almost became wallpaper - just there for the sake of being there.

Right, well, I don't know what's been said in the spoilers. I never read spoilers, but as far as this, yes, Michael was very upset with the way the show was turning. Personally, as far as the "wallpaper" thing, I see that now. I mean, the series is flowing better if there has to be so much continuation (I do miss the typical earlier seasons way of each episode involving a different premise and not all of this ongoing rut junk). It's just, why so much emphasis on Cameron? I mean, we've learned more about him in such a short time than any of the original SG-1 members. They were there first! Especially Daniel, he opened the Stargate! If you ask me, every episode should focus on him, but at least they could not make it "The Cameron Mitchell Show". He's been helpful, yes, but it's like, really, people, let's put things into perspective.

[JessM]

Spoiler:

The thing is, they can easily write a way out of the whole going up in flames. They could have the Ancients find a way to off set it, and have them change their no interference policy, or SG1 could find something on their own, or -and I wouldn't like this- Daniel would use some super powered ascended mojo to stop it. As for Daniel becoming a prior, this really isn't any different from Teal'c siding with Apophis in whatever episode it was with the flashbacks. I don't see him just saying, "screw it, I'm taking up with the Ori. He's either doing because he's thinking it will help beat them -in which case he wouldn't be siding with the enemy anymore than an undercover agent infiltrating a crime organization could be called siding with a criminal- or he'll have somehow been convinced that the Ori are right. And, I'll see him as being deluded, he might have to perform some actions that are bad, but I won't see him as being bad. He won't be being evil willingly, knowing they're evil and choosing to be. Like I said, it sounds like it could be like Teal'c, and I didn't see him losing his honor and nobility. It was still there, and had to be brought back to light. They had to show him who he really was. I'd say this could be the same thing.

Spoiler:

I had entertained the "undercover agent" possibility, and I think it seems more likely. I just don't see him going evil just like that. There could be parallels to what Teal'c went through in those episodes... think it was Enemies and Threshold, right? Hopefully they will be able to de-Prior-ize him somehow, though, like with that Ancients idea.

I guess there's no point in really worrying about it until we either get more information, or see it for ourselves.