Daniel Jackson Discussion and Appreciation

[GaterGina71]

Hi all. If you read JMallozzi's thread, there are "indications" that Daniel's dark side may be coming into play. I seem to have noticed it more in s9. I really hope it doesn't end up that way. I just can't see him becoming some bitter, angry, vengful, evil person, even if there is some of that in him. As others have said he has not let those parts of himself win over. Guess we wait and see.

[Dani347]

I don't see Daniel as becoming revengeful and bitter. Honestly, I think, going by my definition, Daniel showed a lot more of his darkness in the earlier seasons than he does now. And, certainly nowhere near evil.

I don't know if this still needs to be in spoilers, but just in case,

Spoiler:

I think the episode people would cite would be Prototype, but I think that he was less dark in that episode than he had been in other situations . Killing a goa'uld? Not out of character, not pushing a limit Daniel would never push. And, no host to consider either. But, Daniel was being objective, he wasn't doing it for any satisfaction. I kind of wish there had been a bit of it. Add a little dimension, have Daniel realize that it felt good, that he had finally avenged Abydos. Yeah, I still can't believe that we never got to see any reaction to that, even with multiple appearances from Anubis. But, it didn't happen. Daniel made what was written as an objective decision. Not one succumbing to hatred or some darker urges.

That's the only example I can think of.

I wonder, when people talk about Daniel becoming darker or out of character, if the view of who Daniel is varies among people. There are some things people view as incredibly out of character that to me makes perfect sense, and I wonder if we see the core of who Daniel is differently.

[Katerine]

I'm not sure I like the idea of Daniel completely conquering those impulses. I've always been disappointed that his confrontations with Anubis didn't seem to have anything personal about them. It was just like this was another gou'ald to him, instead of someone who destroyed the planet where he spent a year with Sha're.

I've been kind of disappointed with that as well. Here's how I've explained it to myself:

Warning: massive spoilers for Threads ahead that I'm not going to put in tags because I'd basically have to put the entire thing in tags...

In Full Circle, Daniel had been with Oma for a year. Presumably, during that time, she had been drilling into his head the importance of non-interference, and the fact that if Daniel were to take advantage of his extra powers in any way, especially to help the "lower beings," then that leads to the Dark Side (an idea that made a lot more sense once Season 9 started). So in Full Circle, Daniel was already circumventing everything he'd learned in the past year. And he knew that there was a distinct chance that he wasn't going to be able to accomplish anything at all, because Oma was going to stop him. That was a pretty heavy weight to bear.

Plus, her philosophies had made an impact on him. This is actually probably my favorite thing about Daniel, that he's willing to learn, grow, and change. Each season sees him wiser and more mature, and in particular, each exposure to the Ancient philosophies (in Maternal Instinct, Absolute Power, Meridian, Full Circle, and Threads) sees him noticably wiser than he was before. Anyway, the fact that he had taken Oma's philosophies to heart meant that he was able to look at Anubis with less of a personal agenda and more unselfish determination.

As for after the "descension" - I personally am of the opinion that Daniel never truly remembered who he was until Threads.

That's how I choose to explain his behavior regarding... everything. Between the episodes Fallen and Threads, nothing about Daniel seemed right, except for a little bit in Enemy Mine, Lost City, Affinity, and Avatar. Gone was the outspoken man who will say and do whatever it takes to do the right thing, regardless of personal cost. Gone was the man who thinks first of others. Gone was the man who was Jack's, Sam's, and Teal'c's best friend. Gone was the man who listens to people and admits when he's wrong about them (thinking of Weir in particular). In his place was an obnoxious brat, who thinks first of himself, and who just snarks for the sake of snarking, often belittling his friends! He doesn't even seem to like them anymore! I've mentioned this in another thread, but after seeing Season 8 and before seeing Season 9, I was very tempted to post a long rant, which I had all written out in my head, entitled, "Who IS this guy, and what has he done with Daniel?!"

So, anyway, I choose to believe that he never truly remembered himself until Threads. He probably thought he remembered himself, but I'm thinking that the memories were disconnected, like remembering somebody else's life. His very first memory was Sha're's name - but clearly upon remembering that, he didn't feel any of the love he'd felt for Sha're - he just felt glad to have finally remembered the fact that her name was Sha're. After learning that she had died, he calmly says (paraphrased from memory), "I loved her very much. Well I must have, right?"

After Threads - he remembered himself, his passion, his caring, his love, and we can clearly see the difference in Season 9. (It's wonderful). But he's also clearly remembered everything he'd learned during his ascended year, including everything that Oma had taught him - those same philosophies which had shaped him into a much wiser, more objective person by the time Full Circle had happened. He remembered all of that again.

That helped. It also helped that he never actually witnessed the destruction of Abydos - Oma had snatched him away before that happened. So his knowledge of Abydos's destruction was academic, and by the time he remembered the events leading up to it, he'd already known that the Abydonians were ok (they were ascended, after all) for almost two years.

So, anyway, that's why I think he was able to be objective regarding Anubis and Khalek in Prototype. Plus, in Prototype, Daniel was clearly thinking about the events in Absolute Power the entire time - I don't think he had time for righteous indignation - he was too busy being afraid, both of Khalek and of himself.

I like to watch characters overcome their less than noble human impulses, I don't like when they don't have any to overcome. I'd rather have seen him having to apply what he learned from Shifu to Anubis, instead of Maternal Instinct being it.

I think we did see him overcome his "less than noble" characteristics. We just saw it slowly over the course of time, instead of all at once. It was part of the whole "growing up" process.

Or, maybe he's completely overcome any temptation regarding the goa'uld, but I think there's potential for other temptation. Just because he's human. I think all human's have the potential to be dark -make the wrong choices, have the wrong urges, about important things- and it doesn't go away. But, what makes them admirable is when they do the right thing in spite of.

I agree, but Daniel's had a lot of unique opportunities to learn that most of us don't have. In particular, Absolute Power taught him to be afraid of himself - it taught him that he can't just assume that he will always be good - it's something that he has to constantly work at.

eta: I also think that Absolute Power was first of all dark side to the extreme, sort of like Mr. Hyde separating completely from Dr. Jekyll (that's a good summary of what I mean. We all have a bit of Mr. Hyde, and we can suppress him, but he doesn't go away completely). Also, I still think Absolute Power was about what the knowledge of the goa'uld would do to anyone, and Daniel learned that he couldn't defeat them by that method. Because it was too dangerous an option for anyone.

I agree that a lot of what happened in Absolute Power was about what the genetic memory would do to anybody, and that Daniel is a very good person. I just don't think Daniel would have seen it entirely that way. Partly because that's just Daniel, and partly because it wasn't - entirely - that way.

My impression from Absolute Power was that the memories (both the power of the technologies and the memories of thousands of Hitlers) convinced Daniel on a subconscious level that all of the inhibitions which made him a good person were ridiculous, because he had the power, and therefore the right, to do whatever he wanted. It would have done the same to anybody.

But, more than anything else, it was the power that did that to him. Not the memories of torture, and it wasn't as if he were actually taken over by a Goa'uld - he was corrupted because he had the power that came from being the sole bearer of all of that knowledge of technology.

This taught him to be afraid of having too much power over others. It taught him that, whenever he encounters a situation where he does have power over others, he'd better watch it. Otherwise, he could become evil. After all, Evil!Daniel had made a point of telling Jack that he was just doing what he'd wanted to do all along.

Really, it's this fear that keeps him - that keeps any person with power, but particularly him - from corruption. Fear of being evil is really the only thing that can keep a person good when they have the kind of power Daniel has over others. And Daniel does have a lot of power over others, just by virtue of being the world's foremost expert on the Ancients. He could take advantage of that, but he won't ever do that, because the events of Absolute Power had such a profound impact on him, that it changed his very nature, and it's now against his nature to want to take advantage of any kind of power over others. Because he's afraid of what that might do to him.

Like I said, even more than his personality (which was always compassionate and considerate), the biggest thing that makes Daniel such a good person is the fact that he's had unique, profound experiences which have taught him that he can't take being good for granted. Because of that, he is always, and hopefully always will be, working at it.

[Dana_Jeanne]

Katerine said: Like I said, even more than his personality (which was always compassionate and considerate), the biggest thing that makes Daniel such a good person is the fact that he's had unique, profound experiences which have taught him that he can't take being good for granted. Because of that, he is always, and hopefully always will be, working at it.

Actually, I agree with your entire post, just didn't want to copy it all <G> I like how you explained the mess that was Daniel in S7 and S8: he didn't really know who he was until Threads. Excellent, and I'm going to adopt that for myself, too, if you don't mind <G>

I think, when you see as much evil as Daniel has, that you really do need to work at being 'good'. How easy is it to fall into the them of "well, they did it to me, so I can do it back" and gradually grow to be just as evil as the bad guys are.

Being good is something Daniel has to work at, imo2.

Deej

[Dani347]

Good post, Katerine. I'm not sure I agree (my biggest complaint about Daniel in season 7 and 8 was that he had become too military and was no longer the explorer), but it was very well thought out. Although, going from memory, I think there was some emotion from him when he remembered Sha're. I think there might have been some distance between the actual feeling, though. I mean, the tone of his voice didn't sound casual to me, but it did sound like he felt a sadness, but not the intense sadness he might have experienced. As if he remembered that, but also that at the same time, the feeling of the years that had passed were there along with him to make it not as hard. Hey, that's a theory that kind of makes me feel better. If, according to me, his memory about Sha're came back at that time, but it all came close together -her name, the fact that she was someone he cared about (he seemed very excited to go find her -where is she, instead of who is she) a minute later that she died, but almost immediately the feelings of the experiences in Forever and a Day and any other healing, so it wouldn't hit him so hard.

My impression from Absolute Power was that the memories (both the power of the technologies and the memories of thousands of Hitlers) convinced Daniel on a subconscious level that all of the inhibitions which made him a good person were ridiculous, because he had the power, and therefore the right, to do whatever he wanted. It would have done the same to anybody.

But, more than anything else, it was the power that did that to him. Not the memories of torture, and it wasn't as if he were actually taken over by a Goa'uld - he was corrupted because he had the power that came from being the sole bearer of all of that knowledge of technology.

He wasn't? My reading was having the genetic memories of the goa'uld was like being taken over. I mean, you don't have a symbiote in you, but it's worse, because there's a separateness with the symbiote. Like Apophis' host said, you're part of a nightmare. There's a disconnect, where your mind is watching this creature make your body do these horrible things. But, having the genetic memory does change you. I think it's more than just remembering all the evil. I think the evil becomes a part of you. But, I do think we're kind of saying the same thing. Having the power that came from the memory was the danger. I was focusing on what gave him the power. So, to me, the power, combined with stripping all the good from who Daniel was, plus adding on even worse impulses of the goa'uld turned him into the evil guy in Absolute Power. I think if the power came without the genetic memories, he might still be dangerous, but there would be some reasoning in his actions. I think the genetic memory, the power (which I see as one thing, one enabling the other) was what took him far enough to bomb Moscow, just to do it.

I agree that Daniel might not see it that way, might worry that there was something inside of him. I just get antsy from too many debates where people have said the reason Shifu gave him the dream was because there was something in Daniel that made him more suceptible (spelling! arrgh!) to the effects once they happened, and that Jack, Sam, or Teal'c would have been able to fight it. Like their moral character was stronger than Daniel's. Which I know isn't what you're saying, but I get skittish based on past debates with others. My theory is that Daniel needed the dream not because he was any more likely to turn evil than anyone else with the power, but because he was at a point where he wanted to use it more. There was still a lot of personal hatred for Apophis. (hmm, now I'm wondering if his hatred for Apophis could have been stronger than Teal'c's, and if that kind of thing could be measured. What would the story be like if it had been Teal'c with the Absolute Power? Or, maybe being a Jaffa prevented that, like it did with Hathor. Sorry, tangent there.) So, um long post short (too late!) I agree it was the power, I just think it was the memory that gave him the power.

As far as the inner struggle, I mean I want to see it now. Lately, I don't think they've shown any of the work that the characters have to do to be good. Mistakes don't seem to grow from the characters. In Serpent's Song, you could tell the reason Daniel didn't have some feelings for the host at first was because he was blinded by hatred for Apophis. Or, in Forever and a Day (I refuse to believe there wasn't some truth in it. Daniel would have been a one dimensional character if he didn't honestly have some struggle with forgiving Teal'c), watching him going through the process of forgiving Teal'c. But, now, I don't really see that, with Daniel or any of the characters. So, I wouldn't mind some darkness if it builds upon a flaw that's already there, and doesn't go too far. One thing that it could build on would be Daniel's feelings of guilt, that I think they've shown a few times this season.

Spoiler:

He was very upset with himself for letting the Ori know about them. And, there seemed to be a little bit of blaming himself in Babylon when he couldn't figure out the device they brought back. Landry even seemed to pick up on his tone, and tried to reassure him by pointing out that he didn't have much to go on. And, Daniel's expression still seemed to say that he should have been able to do something.

It would be interesting, because it would come from what starts off as a good impulse.

Okay, I've rambled on waay too much.

[Madeleine]

Prototype gave the nearest we've got in recent years to a fight being 'personal' for Daniel. I'm glad it was him who took the hardline position first and hardest.

Jack makes light of his nemessises(?) with humour, and Teal'c goes all Jaffa Code on his, and Sam hasn't really had any except the Human replicators who she did get to play off a fair bit, but Daniel's attitude towards Apophis and the go'auld early on seemed to have fizzled out a bit when it came to Anubis. It's nice to see the old vengeful/unforgiving Daniel back.

And I don't think that makes him dark. He keeps his vengefulness under check, letting it out only when forgiveness would be terribly dangerous. Daniel's not wrong to judge an evil entity and find it guilty of evil.

If he's ever been dark it was in s5. When he was tired, disillusioned, jaded and prickly he was pretty Dark to me. He's never been dark in his morality, but his attitude in s5 was a dark attitude. He's got lighter again since.

[Katerine]

Good post yourself. I agree that we seem to be saying much the same things, just thinking about them slightly differently. I think that power has a general corrupting effect, regardless of where it comes from, and that's what Daniel has learned to fear.

So, to me, the power, combined with stripping all the good from who Daniel was, plus adding on even worse impulses of the goa'uld turned him into the evil guy in Absolute Power. I think if the power came without the genetic memories, he might still be dangerous, but there would be some reasoning in his actions. I think the genetic memory, the power (which I see as one thing, one enabling the other) was what took him far enough to bomb Moscow, just to do it.

I agree that Daniel might not see it that way, might worry that there was something inside of him. I just get antsy from too many debates where people have said the reason Shifu gave him the dream was because there was something in Daniel that made him more suceptible (spelling! arrgh!) to the effects once they happened, and that Jack, Sam, or Teal'c would have been able to fight it. Like their moral character was stronger than Daniel's. Which I know isn't what you're saying, but I get skittish based on past debates with others. My theory is that Daniel needed the dream not because he was any more likely to turn evil than anyone else with the power, but because he was at a point where he wanted to use it more. There was still a lot of personal hatred for Apophis. (hmm, now I'm wondering if his hatred for Apophis could have been stronger than Teal'c's, and if that kind of thing could be measured. What would the story be like if it had been Teal'c with the Absolute Power? Or, maybe being a Jaffa prevented that, like it did with Hathor. Sorry, tangent there.) So, um long post short (too late!) I agree it was the power, I just think it was the memory that gave him the power.

Wow. I've never seen that debate, and I'm kind of glad I've missed it. I always thought that Daniel was given the dream because a) he was there, b) he was willing to listen and learn, c) he was the one Oma had an interest in teaching, d) he was the one Shifu had a vested interest in teaching, and e) the lesson had the best chance of convincing everybody if it happened to Daniel, because everybody knew what a strong and moral person he was, and they would understand that if it could happen to Daniel, it could happen to anybody.

As far as the inner struggle, I mean I want to see it now. Lately, I don't think they've shown any of the work that the characters have to do to be good. Mistakes don't seem to grow from the characters. In Serpent's Song, you could tell the reason Daniel didn't have some feelings for the host at first was because he was blinded by hatred for Apophis. Or, in Forever and a Day (I refuse to believe there wasn't some truth in it. Daniel would have been a one dimensional character if he didn't honestly have some struggle with forgiving Teal'c), watching him going through the process of forgiving Teal'c. But, now, I don't really see that, with Daniel or any of the characters. So, I wouldn't mind some darkness if it builds upon a flaw that's already there, and doesn't go too far. One thing that it could build on would be Daniel's feelings of guilt, that I think they've shown a few times this season.

Spoiler:

He was very upset with himself for letting the Ori know about them. And, there seemed to be a little bit of blaming himself in Babylon when he couldn't figure out the device they brought back. Landry even seemed to pick up on his tone, and tried to reassure him by pointing out that he didn't have much to go on. And, Daniel's expression still seemed to say that he should have been able to do something.

It would be interesting, because it would come from what starts off as a good impulse.

I think you're making "conquering bad impulses" out to be more complicated than it really is.

1. First of all, when you're a child, you have to be told not to take other people's things. Which seems hard and unfair, and even after being told, you will take people's things if you are given the opportunity to. Because governing yourself in this respect is too much to ask, and it's hard!
   
   After a while, though, when you've been punished a few times, you start to take for granted that you shouldn't take other people's things. And you start avoiding stealing even when you have the opportunity to, even if you really really really want the thing. And if you really want it, it might still be kind of hard, but "not stealing" is so much a part of you at that point that most of the impulse is usually squashed before it even reaches the conscious level.
   
   All bad human impulses are that way. But Daniel has had more opportunities to learn than most of us, so while most people never get to see where bad impulses will take them, Daniel got a front row seat.
   
   
2. Because he got a front row seat to what happens when he can do anything he wants and nobody can stop him, he's better able to police himself. It's not even a conscious thing. It doesn't need to be. You could even go so far as to say that it's just human nature, depending on how you look at it - it's human nature to avoid that which scares the {bleep} out of us.
   
   Fear is one of the single most powerful motivators there is. And knowing Daniel, the one thing that scares him more than anything else - more than any of his enemies, more the destruction of Earth, even - is that dream Shifu gave him.
   
   He doesn't need to work on a conscious level at curbing his "less than noble instincts." He's seen where most of those less than noble instincts can take him. It's natural to avoid anything that could possibly lead to becoming that man again. It's become a fundamental part of who he is.
   
   Like I've said before - Daniel's biggest moral strength is that he knows he's not perfect. Most people know that they're not perfect, but Daniel *knows* it - so much so that it scares him to death.
   
   That's why he will never walk the path to the Dark Side. Because that fear has him constantly on the lookout against it. And that fear overrides all other impulses, because that's what fear does.

Am I the only one who sees major parallels to Willow Rosenberg (BtVS) here?

[Katerine]

Prototype gave the nearest we've got in recent years to a fight being 'personal' for Daniel. I'm glad it was him who took the hardline position first and hardest.

Jack makes light of his nemessises(?) with humour, and Teal'c goes all Jaffa Code on his, and Sam hasn't really had any except the Human replicators who she did get to play off a fair bit, but Daniel's attitude towards Apophis and the go'auld early on seemed to have fizzled out a bit when it came to Anubis. It's nice to see the old vengeful/unforgiving Daniel back.

And I don't think that makes him dark. He keeps his vengefulness under check, letting it out only when forgiveness would be terribly dangerous. Daniel's not wrong to judge an evil entity and find it guilty of evil.

But is it really vengefulness if you keep it in check and let it out only when forgiveness is dangerous? And if, even then, you only take it so far as to

Spoiler:

kill the person, as opposed to making them suffer

? That strikes me as "practicality."

I need to re-watch Prototype. But from what I recall, he was a lot more angry with Woolsey than he ever was with Khalek.

Spoiler:

With Khalek, he mostly seemed... worried. He knows, both from his vast experiences with the Goa'uld and from Shifu's dream, just what kind of person Khalek is. And he knows from vast experience just what kind of power comes from being ascended. Khalek becoming ascended, therefore, was a thing to be avoided at all costs.

That's how I saw it, anyway.

[Dani347]

After a while, though, when you've been punished a few times, you start to take for granted that you shouldn't take other people's things. And you start avoiding stealing even when you have the opportunity to, even if you really really really want the thing. And if you really want it, it might still be kind of hard, but "not stealing" is so much a part of you at that point that most of the impulse is usually squashed before it even reaches the conscious level.

But, lets up the ante. You know the old morality puzzle of having your spouse desperately ill, they need a certain medicine to live through the night and the only way to get it is to break into a pharmacy and steal it. What do you do? The situation isn't as easy, you're still morally the same -you know it's wrong- but it's even harder because it's coming up against another moral problem. Those are the kinds of stories I like.

He doesn't need to work on a conscious level at curbing his "less than noble instincts." He's seen where most of those less than noble instincts can take him. It's natural to avoid anything that could possibly lead to becoming that man again. It's become a fundamental part of who he is.

Maybe he doesn't need to work on it, but as a viewer, I like to see it. I mean, I can say Daniel isn't perfect (which I know he isn't) but I find it much more interesting to watch him up against a difficult choice, to see that the choice is difficult -not just academically know it, but see the struggle- and see him doing the right thing. To go back to Serpent's Lair (not again, they cry!) if Daniel had immediately argued on behalf of the host, told Jack and Teal'c that they should back down, I would know that he must be struggling with his natural feelings towards Apophis in spite of everything, but the episode wouldn't be nearly as compelling for me. Or, another example, in The Devil You Knw, if Daniel had immediately gone down to see Sam, knowing she was a host (and also for all they knew, a host a goa'uld) I would have known that he found it difficult to see her like that, but to actually have it brought up that he hadn't visited her, to see that he couldnt look her in the eye, made the moment when he did, all the more powerful. I agree we can't have Daniel battling the same battle over and over. Than there would be no growth. But, I wouldn't mind him being put up against new challenges. I'm just a person who needs to see. Just like I need to see Daniel doing academic stuff. Just knowing he can do linguistic and archeological stuff isn't enough.

That's why he will never walk the path to the Dark Side. Because that fear has him constantly on the lookout against it. And that fear overrides all other impulses, because that's what fear does.

True. He won't. But, I still wouldn't mind seeing the fear come into the forefront, because he's pushed out of his comfort zone. That's one of the difficulties with having a show on for a long time. You don't want the characters to stay stagnate, to never learn any lessons, never grow. But, then, how do you show the human flaws (and I don't mean just the tendency to get grouchy at times) after years where the character should be learning? Or, maybe I'm the only one who needs to see those things.

But is it really vengefulness if you keep it in check and let it out only when forgiveness is dangerous? And if, even then, you only take it so far as to SPOILERS (Highlight below to read):

Spoiler:

kill the person, as opposed to making them suffer? That strikes me as "practicality."

I need to re-watch Prototype. But from what I recall, he was a lot more angry with Woolsey than he ever was with Khalek. SPOILERS (Highlight below to read):

Spoiler:

With Khalek, he mostly seemed... worried. He knows, both from his vast experiences with the Goa'uld and from Shifu's dream, just what kind of person Khalek is. And he knows from vast experience just what kind of power comes from being ascended. Khalek becoming ascended, therefore, was a thing to be avoided at all costs. That's how I saw it, anyway.

I saw Prototype the same way.

Spoiler:

I don't even think forgiveness came into it. It was a decision made just because of strategy. Khalek was a dangerous enemy. I don't think Daniel was acting out of revenge. Of course, to me, knowing what Khalek was, Daniel even back as far as season 1 would have felt the same way. Or, better, Daniel even after the dream in Absolute Power would have made the same choice. Although, I was a little disappointed that no one else batted an eye when he said it.

[Katerine]

But, lets up the ante. You know the old morality puzzle of having your spouse desperately ill, they need a certain medicine to live through the night and the only way to get it is to break into a pharmacy and steal it. What do you do? The situation isn't as easy, you're still morally the same -you know it's wrong- but it's even harder because it's coming up against another moral problem. Those are the kinds of stories I like.

Me too. This is my favorite kind of story, and one of the best things about Stargate (which is why my fourth favorite episode of seasons 1-7 was Scorched Earth). But this type of story isn't really a highlight of human flaws - it's a moral conundrum, which is a different beast altogether. In the situation you cited, as in Scorched Earth, there is no clear right or wrong answer. Ethically speaking, both the characters and the viewers are kind of lost in an abyss. It isn't a question of "Do I do the right thing, or do I do what I want to do?" It's a question of "I should do the right thing - if only I knew what the right thing was."

Maybe he doesn't need to work on it, but as a viewer, I like to see it. I mean, I can say Daniel isn't perfect (which I know he isn't) but I find it much more interesting to watch him up against a difficult choice, to see that the choice is difficult -not just academically know it, but see the struggle- and see him doing the right thing. To go back to Serpent's Lair (not again, they cry!) if Daniel had immediately argued on behalf of the host, told Jack and Teal'c that they should back down, I would know that he must be struggling with his natural feelings towards Apophis in spite of everything, but the episode wouldn't be nearly as compelling for me. Or, another example, in The Devil You Knw [sic - should be "In the Line of Fire"], if Daniel had immediately gone down to see Sam, knowing she was a host (and also for all they knew, a host a goa'uld) I would have known that he found it difficult to see her like that, but to actually have it brought up that he hadn't visited her, to see that he couldnt look her in the eye, made the moment when he did, all the more powerful. I agree we can't have Daniel battling the same battle over and over. Than there would be no growth. But, I wouldn't mind him being put up against new challenges. I'm just a person who needs to see. Just like I need to see Daniel doing academic stuff. Just knowing he can do linguistic and archeological stuff isn't enough.

...

True. He won't. But, I still wouldn't mind seeing the fear come into the forefront, because he's pushed out of his comfort zone. That's one of the difficulties with having a show on for a long time. You don't want the characters to stay stagnate, to never learn any lessons, never grow. But, then, how do you show the human flaws (and I don't mean just the tendency to get grouchy at times) after years where the character should be learning? Or, maybe I'm the only one who needs to see those things.

I can definitely see your point. This is probably the reason most shows stagnate before they get this far - writers usually have problems keeping the characters growing instead of just stagnating. Theoretically, it could eventually get to the point where Daniel's in a place that's ethically so far above everybody else, including the writers, that the writers won't know how to write him. Anyway, I think they're doing a good job with the current storyline, with

Spoiler:

the Ori on one side, and Vala on the other. Ironically enough, Vala is helping his growth. One of the best ways to grow is to compare yourself critically in the face of the faults of others. She brings out his moral focus and keeps him grounded at the same time. The Ori also help, because they give him a bit of an ethical dilemma - if this was why the Others had their non-interference rules... then does that mean that the Others were in the right the entire time? When they punished Oma by not letting her fix her own mistakes, regardless of how many innocent people died as a result? When they demanded that Daniel couldn't do anything to help his friends when he was ascended?

Now, there's something I would like to see explored more thoroughly, myself.

[1DanielForMe]

As far as I'm concerned, Daniel writes himself! There is no shortage of possibilities to showcase his morality, academic prowess, or for him to learn even more about others, and himself.

Spoiler:

Also, for the record, my opinion is that the Ancients really didn't have to punish Oma in the a manner that would leave innocent people dead and Anubis able to regain power. I think Daniel had every right to be angry at the Ancients for that, and for the fact that they never helped anyone, even when it wouldn't have alerted the Oraii. (If you ask me, the Ancients seem to have a problem with the definition of "Free Will", but I'm getting rather off course here. Sorry, I've a bad habit of that!)

[Dana_Jeanne]

I love your sig Katerine!

I'd never thought of Daniel as a Gamma before, but your reasons make perfect sense to me.

Dana Jeanne

[1DanielForMe]

Well. I'm glad I'm not the only left in the deep end.

At any rate, some very interesting thoughts are being expressed here, and after seeing the 4th Horseman Part 2, I have another one, that Daniel's sense of humour and tough guy way (not in a bad sense) come out when he's around Cameron. Personally, I think they make a great team.

[Frostfox]

Well. I'm glad I'm not the only left in the deep end.

At any rate, some very interesting thoughts are being expressed here, and after seeing the 4th Horseman Part 2, I have another one, that Daniel's sense of humour and tough guy way (not in a bad sense) come out when he's around Cameron. Personally, I think they make a great team.

Dan and Cam do seem to be gelling quite well, and it is, as MS wanted, quite different from the classic Jack/Daniel banter, which is grand.

FF

[Daniel's shadow]

Me too.

I think it is wonderful that Daniel and Cameron got along with each other and the good thing is the basis of the friendship is different from Daniel and Jack's.

Daniel and Jack friendship has developed from supporting each other when the other needs it. It is highly personalised and definitely intuitive.

Daniel and Cameron on the other hand have a type of formal workplace friend type of friendship. My apologies for not expressing this well enough but the reason why I said this is because the two actors have purposely call each other by their last names despite the efforts of the writers to stop it.

I will be interested to see how the friendship evolves this and next season.