Cameron - Discussion and Appreciation

[Dream-a-Little]

But you know, I can't help but wonder if we're too worried about what the anti people on this forum will think. It seems like I'll read all of these responses to an ep, like this last one, where everyone seemed to like it, and they seemed to enjoy Mitchell in it. And I know I really enjoyed Mitchell in it. Then some fans post all of these negative things that just make me go, huh? And I just think that some people will never like Mitchell no matter what, and I'm trying to ignore them. It's hard, though.

I think maybe, for me anyways, it’s less about what anybody else thinks and more about my response and what I want from my viewing experience. It’s not just the situations that set up disparaging comments from the other characters that bothers me. It’s more of a cumulative thing and the disparaging comments are kind of the final irritating grain of sand in my eye. We had the whole first half of the season where it seemed they were actively burying the character. In fact Martin Gero and Joe Mallozzi were actually quoted as looking for ways to bury the character in TPTB. It’s the lets cast him as the leader of SG-1 and clearly state that he is the leader of SG-1 but we never will let him unambiguously be the leader of SG-1. When we do get more screen time, let’s throw in lots of opportunities for the other cast members to treat him like he’s five. Even the Teal’c/Mitchell relationship has started to grate with me. And I used to really like that relationship. I can’t figure out why anyone with a remotely functional brain would sit in a writer’s room and say hey let’s do this and honestly think it’s a good idea.

I’m a science fiction fan in general and I check out most science fiction offerings as a matter of course. I always come at them wanting them to be good, because there really is so little truly good science fiction out there. Over the course of the previous 8 years I’ve checked in on Stargate periodically to see if there was anything to get exited about and ended up always hitting the off button on my remote. I’ve just never really found anything very interesting or compelling about the writing, characters or actors that play them to like Stargate for Stargate’s sake. I went back to pick up the rest of the show after I knew BB was joining the cast. Sad to say, nothing I saw while doing that did anything to spark my interest in the show based on show’s own merits. After 8 previous years on two different networks and various syndication channels, I think if they were going to get you as a fan of this show keeping the status quo, well that’s more than enough aired product to do so. Then lookey they went and added something new and now they have a product with an element that is capable of holding my interest. I’m one of those watching solely for Ben. And the other characters in the show, who I previously just found to be unremarkable have now started to morph into creatures that I want Mitchell to haul off and slug. It doesn’t make me dislike Mitchell; it’s just making me want to see the other characters sucked out an airlock so they won’t get in the way of my enjoying my Ben fix. I’m more than willing to fast forward through the parts of the show that are geared toward the original Stargate audience. I want them to stop putting annoying crap in the parts that should be geared to my part of the audience, the part of the audience that didn’t have any reason or desire to be here pre-Browder. There’s more than enough show to go around for everyone I just want TPTB to let me enjoy my little corner of it in peace. (End Rant)

The only Mitchell thing that bugged me was when he didn't give orders when I thought he should. I can think of three times. One was when Sam suggested they split up. It was weird to me that Mitchell never said, okay, you and Teal'c go that way. Me and Jackson will go this way. Another time was when Daniel asked for more time to convince the villagers, Mitchell just threw up his hand like "Okay." But it was weird that he didn't say so out loud. And the last time was when Daniel wanted to go back down to the planet and Mitchell said he'd go with him. Why didn't Mitchell turn to Sam and Teal'c and say anything at that point? Wasn't that odd that he would ignore them? It always bugs me when the writers don't let him be the leader he should be.

Yup!

[Dream-a-Little]

It made me wonder if it was going to be a StarWars thing where a small ship could find a flaw in the Ori ship and destroy it.

It would be an interesting way to deal with the situation considering that the big hulking ships were proving pretty useless. It will probably just end up as being something that was used to help put everyone in jeopardy in a different place, the easier to kill off any actor who decided to be difficult about his or her contract. Although, if we are going for something small being the answer, Carter could get sucked into the engine of one of the Ori ships causing an explosion that sets off a chain reaction destroying the other 3 ships. You just never know!

[shester]

Dream a little I watch for Ben. Other than that I would not watch Stargate. I have a tendency to fast forward the scenes Ben is not in. I watch it through the first time to see what is happening then on rewatching I zoom through. The only time I enjoyed Crusade was when Ben had something to say and the wonderful towel scene (sorry shallow part). I didn't need an hour by hour play of what happened to Vala. I was with Mitchell when he said to skip ahead. I know the Claudia fans had a ball with it but I was bored. Ben is the only thing that will let me watch. His interactions with Claudia were wonderful. They have such chemistry. I have never seen the chemistry between her and MS.
I started watching because I was an RDA fan but after awhile he started acting bored so I was.
I will continue to support Ben in Stargate and I hope they will take him out of the straight jacket they have put him in and let him do what he does best:Act.

Just my 2 cents.
Sybil

[ShardsofGlass]

I can't decide if I'm worried about S10 or not. LIke some of you, I'm here for Ben, and I'm finding that I actually like the show too. Oh sure, I have problems with it and there are plenty of eps that I won't rewatch. But the good ones are a lot of fun. Still, the synopses for S10 so far do not mention Mitchell, and it has me a little worried. As the lead, however, we shouldn't be worried. He should still be part of the A storyline even if it's an ep about another character. And the synopses don't always tell me what I want to know. Take Ripple Effect, for instance. I was not looking forward to that ep. I figured it was a Carter ep, Mitchell wasn't mentioned in the synopsis, and the writers had done a good job burying him in other eps prior to that. Yet I loved RE! Mitchell had a significant role in it, in fact. And there are other eps where the synopsis was very general, such as The Scourge or Ethon or Arthur's Mantle.

One thing I am worried about is some spoilers I've seen that seem to give Vala a significant emotional arc, and something that could have the potential for a lot of juicy storylines longterm. I want that for Mitchell! <pout>

One thing to look forward to in S10 was a comment by Joe M. He said that at some point Mitchell will be riding a motorcycle. Not sure if that'll make it into an ep, but it might be fun to watch.

[RyantheGreat]

If Ben and TPTB and the character of Cam can make it through S10, I think it'll be okay.

I think alot of the bash Cam is some sort of instinctual reaction by hardcore fans who want RDA back. Intellectually, they know it's not going to happen, but in their hearts, they knew the temper tantrum they threw when MS left and was replaced worked, and got MS brought back...

When Ben is still there at the start of S10, and goes through S10, and grows through S10, I have faith (or hope, anyways) that a lot of the residual anger will fade away...

They just haven't accepted yet that Cameron Mitchell isn't Jack O'Niell (remix addition.)

[ShardsofGlass]

RyantheGreat,
I agree with that. I also think a lot of fans were hoping that with RDA gone either AT or MS would become the new lead. Obviously that didn't happen, so there's a lot of resentment still there. The one problem with your scenario, though, is that I'm not convinced SG will go beyond S10, or that Ben will stay on the show. I could be totally wrong, but Ben's commuting every weekend to LA, and that has to get old really quick. And the ratings have been down for all the Scifi shows, so there's some uncertainty about what Scifi will do and whether they'll keep SG-1, at least in my mind there's uncertainty! I think it's important for Ben and Mitchell to be accepted already! By S10, people should be used to him and either still watch or not watch.

BTW, I've been reading your comments on the Who Should Lead thread and enjoying them very much. You're saying everything I've thought of but couldn't manage to be coherent about.

[FoolishPleasure]

Still, the synopses for S10 so far do not mention Mitchell, and it has me a little worried.

The Sheppard fans are worried about him over on SGA as well, as there have been no rumors about what happens to him in the first few episodes, even though other actors are talking about their roles, minimally. I doubt it is anything to worry about.

Spoilers were really getting out of hand and I think the studio is cracking down hard. I know someone who gets casting sides and she was expecting to start getting info a few weeks ago but so far has seen nothing worth mentioning. No juicy spoilers (drats).

Some people think Joe Mallozzi closed up shop here at GW because the studio forced him to do so (and I so miss his hints and teasers). I think its gonna be a long wait to July.

[scarimor]

If Ben and TPTB and the character of Cam can make it through S10, I think it'll be okay.

I think alot of the bash Cam is some sort of instinctual reaction by hardcore fans who want RDA back. Intellectually, they know it's not going to happen, but in their hearts, they knew the temper tantrum they threw when MS left and was replaced worked, and got MS brought back...

They just haven't accepted yet that Cameron Mitchell isn't Jack O'Niell (remix addition.)

I think this belief is a mistake. It is a red herring which doesn't address what's really at stake. Sure, it's an easy thing to blame stuff on, but it's still a mis-direction:

1) The hard-core Daniel-fans who were upset by MS's departure are not necessarily the same fans who are interested in the Cameron debate.

2) Those interested in debating what they see as Cameron's problems are not necessarily those who miss Jack O'Neill (and for some, quite the contrary).

In short, it is a mistake to pin any unhappiness with the way Cam has been written on something other than the way Cam has been written.

If we want Cameron to work, and to appeal to a wide spectrum of fans, then it's that which needs attention. A consistenly well-written Cameron is the key. The assumption that those who see flaws in the way he's been written must simply be pining for O'Neill is a mistake big enough to eat Tokyo. The two are not co-dependent.

I wonder if I can illustrate this with another example - my reaction to O'Neill: Jack O'Neill was, in general, a well-written character. There were some flaws, particularly in later seasons re. his "playing dumb" act, but he was on the whole well-rounded, well written and well-played. And he was my least favourite character despite this - and I don't miss him! But because he was generally sound, with a plausible backstory for his character's role and a consistency which complemented it, he wasn't problematic. He was generally plausible - and I still don't miss him!

Cameron, on the other hand, is a character I could like a lot more than Jack. There's a difference between enjoying a character and recognising sound writing - it's where the subjective which is hard to explain can either depend on or ignore sound craftsmanship. Carter is my second favourite character on the show (Janet was my number one) but I can see that she was written inconsistently (badly) in Beachhead.

A well-written character is one that, even if you don't get much out of them as a subjective viewer, nevertheless contributes to the whole. I rarely liked O'Neill - I think the only episode I did actually like him was The Fifth Man - but because for the most part he was consistently and plausibly written, he was integral to the success of most episodes.

Cam as an idea for a character is more appealing to me (and may be less appealing to others), but that's not the point - if he's written well, he will not upset anyone by upsetting the quality of an episode, and those that like him can enjoy him and those who aren't Cam-fans will not talk about him much at all; that is a key aim of ensemble writing - every character has a part to play which is solid, not just a plot device, in a coherent piece of work. Cameron was exactly that in Stronghold, and very much not that in Off the Grid: he was made to look stupid in Off the Grid to get the team into trouble - i.e. just plot device.

If the writers stop using Cameron as a plot device and start making him professional all the time, even those fans who don't think he's the best thing since blue jello will find nice things to say about him, and won't be complaining. Even those fans who do miss Jack will accept him, because he will be part of good stuff even while not the focus of their eyes.

Fortunately, I think things have got better for Cameron in the last couple of episodes of season 9, so we'll see how things progress.

[Kas]

Spoilers were really getting out of hand and I think the studio is cracking down hard. I know someone who gets casting sides and she was expecting to start getting info a few weeks ago but so far has seen nothing worth mentioning. No juicy spoilers (drats).

Some people think Joe Mallozzi closed up shop here at GW because the studio forced him to do so (and I so miss his hints and teasers). I think its gonna be a long wait to July.

I have to say that I think this is very likely too. I don't think it's a coincidence that around the same time, the studio source of ratings clammed up and many other of the bloggers haven't been returning much. I personally think it's a good thing and still believe that SciFi still give away too much on occassion themselves. The internet has become a slightly saner place too!

BTW, I've been reading your comments on the Who Should Lead thread and enjoying them very much. You're saying everything I've thought of but couldn't manage to be coherent about.

Ryan the Great... I have to say that I echo Shard's sentiments. Really enjoying your comments and eloquence, Man.

[ShardsofGlass]

scarimor,

I totally agree that Cam was made to look foolish in OTG. But I disagree about Stronghold completely. I didn't care for the way the ep was written and I thought it was clunky and unsubtle. But I think the writers were trying to show us how Cam's rashness or whatever could be good in the right situation. The clunkiness comes from the fact that they hadn't portrayed him that way until that ep, at least not in any obvious way. So the "revelation" about his character felt forced and it left me going, huh?

But fans have been complaining about Ben since before the season ever started. They complained loudly and nastily on Joe's blog last fall, especially when we got to see the longer credits. And this is before the second half when Mitchell's character was fleshed out more.

Some fans have complained about Mitchell all the time and after every ep. They complained about him after Ripple Effect, Ethon, Collateral Damage, Babylon, The Scourge, and Arthur's Mantle, and Camelot. These are eps where I thought Cam was well written and strong, imo. He's in a can't win situation because no matter what he does, people complain.

On the other hand, I do see that a lot of people like his character. They're not participating in the Who Should Lead thread, but they're here. They're also at other forums I 've peeked in. So a lot of people do like the character. However, I think the segment of fans who are disappointed that Carter isn't the sole leader will never accept Cam, and they'll pick apart everything he does. It's human nature.

[scarimor]

I totally agree that Cam was made to look foolish in OTG. But I disagree about Stronghold completely. I didn't care for the way the ep was written and I thought it was clunky and unsubtle. But I think the writers were trying to show us how Cam's rashness or whatever could be good in the right situation. The clunkiness comes from the fact that they hadn't portrayed him that way until that ep, at least not in any obvious way. So the "revelation" about his character felt forced and it left me going, huh?

This aspect of his character was set up in Avalon, though. He described himself as "impatient" - and we saw how that could manifest itself, and how it could be channelled. It didn't come out of nowhere. That said, I agree that little had been made of it in the interim, so it could have been set up better.

But fans have been complaining about Ben since before the season ever started.

About Ben? Well that is a different issue then. If someone doesn't care for an actor's performances, there may be various reasons for that, separate from the characters he plays. And if people have voiced their appreciation or lack of it for an actor, that's something which transcends any series and we won't get round it easily. People can't be forced to like a particular actor's style.

However, I think the segment of fans who are disappointed that Carter isn't the sole leader will never accept Cam, and they'll pick apart everything he does. It's human nature.

Again, this is a flawed assumption (although it is human nature to make it). It's a classic mis-direction - putting the reason for problems on some "other": externalizing it. It requires making some fundamental assumptions. Is there such a segment? We would have to identify someone who specifically said they were disappointed to know that (there may be), and then ask them a qualifying question - would they be content to see a gate-experienced full Colonel from another SGC team taking command, for example? Several people have talked about this scenario elsewhere, and even named suitable officers. If so, then the assumption is demonstrably wrong.

It comes down to this: if there is a problem, then the problem is at home, not "out there". Fans don't fail to appreciate a character by default - i.e. because he's not another character - they appreciate him or otherwise because of his own sake.

Which is a good thing, because it means you (i.e. the writers) can do something about it.

[ShardsofGlass]

When I said the fans were complaining about Ben, I wasn't talking about his acting. I was talking about the fact that he had been brought in ahead of the other three who've been there since the beginning. They were upset last July when Ben got as much press attention as he did and that he was on the cover of TV Guide. It's a fact that many fans are unhappy that Ben came on board "above" their favorite character. I'm not going to go back and reread old threads and the old blog comments on Joe Mallozzi's blog, but I've observed it so much that I just thought everyone else had seen it too.

Another thing fans have complained about in regards to Ben is the credits and how much screen time he has compared to their favorite character. None of these complaints have anything to do with Mitchell or with Ben's ability as an actor. It's all about his role in the heirarchy of the show.

It's important to understand the feelings of various fans about this because it definitely colors people's feelings about the character. To me it's obvious that someone who didn't care about whether or not AT's name was first in the credits is going to have a different mindset about Mitchell than someone who is quite upset that BB came in above AT in the credits.

[ChillinTheMost]

Yessss! Totally agree. Although I wouldn't use the term "rash choices" to describe Cam's energy - he was on a roll and she needed someone with momentum to go up there, and what's more needed people who weren't so hyped to hold their defendable position and secure their retreat (i.e. herself and Daniel).

Yes, momentum is a better description! Thanks!

[ChillinTheMost]

Interesting discussion and I think it is telling that every version of ours of what is happening on the show and with the fans has some truth to it.

The fanship of this show seems to be splintered and I think the only way to fix it is for the writers, producers, etc., to figure out what they want and to write/produce it that way. Stop trying to please everyone while pleasing no one. If that means a certain part of the fandom doesn't continue watching, then that's the sacrifice the show will have to make. It could mean that our particular part of the fandom is disappointed and stops watching, and I could live with that, but at least the audience could settle down and watch, or not, as they want. This constant watching to see if the show is going to become something everyone wants to watch on a regular basis is fracturing the fans and not giving any of the factions any satisfaction.

[FoolishPleasure]

The fanship of this show seems to be splintered and I think the only way to fix it is for the writers, producers, etc., to figure out what they want and to write/produce it that way. Stop trying to please everyone while pleasing no one.

You said it best. TPTB need to develop characters and story arcs, and stick with it. No reset button, no backpeddling, no changing character personalities in mid-stream. If they bring in a new writer, give them a good background on the characters they are writing so we don't get bizarre behaviors from characters we care about.

Do I like every character on SG1 or SGA? No. But I don't expect the writers to change them to be what I want. That is what makes the shows so interesting. One doesn't need to love every character. TPTB have a bad habit of trying to please all parts of fandom and it just can't be done. It does more damage than anything else. Pick a road to follow and stick with it. That way the fans don't have to watch characters engage in schizo behavior at times.