Cameron - Discussion and Appreciation

[Lightsabre]

I wanted to respond to the Mitchell leadership issue, but everyone beat me to what I wanted to say.

I'll even be a bit more positive and say that Mitchell doing the drug trader thing didn't bother me. Why would you send your #1 team to sit in a cornfield and take notes? You have to know that they would take a proactive stance. If I've noticed nothing else about Mitchell, I've noticed that he is proactive. Landry has to know this and he sent him on the mission. Maybe Mitchell didn't make the best drug dealer, but it was a dangerous mission and Daniel and Mary Poppins are too important elsewhere to use as bait. Maybe Teal'c could have done it, but Mitchell was putting his own life on the line and not asking anyone else to do it. Frankly, if Landry only wanted someone to observe, he should have sent SG-159.

I agree. Everyone has quoted the 'under the radar' order at me, but what exactly were they to do there if they weren't to be seen?
Mitchell took action designed to give them the best intel possible.

In Arthur's Mantle the ONLY thing I saw that could be remotely considered "wrong" was the taunting of Volnek. What was that about? I guess it was to get the crystal, but the writers could have handled that better. Other than that, Arthur's Mantle was near perfection in my eyes.

I'm ok with the taunting. He had to get him mad so he'd abandon the staff and go for hand to hand

Storming up the hill in Stronghold? Teal'c and Bratac would be dead if he hadn't done that. That aside, the guy behind him [who seemed to be another leader] told him to "go, go, go" meaning "storm the big gun". I don't know if Carter yelling "Wait for backup" could even be heard by Mitchell. We saw no indication that he heard and ignored. Besides, he was halfway up the hill. Was he supposed to stop in the middle of the hill, exposed, and wait?

Mitchell, Carter, Daniel, no body was wearing a head set. It's within the realm of possibility that in heat of the battle, he didn't hear her order.
Regardless, in true SG style, he's disobeyed and had no consequences. Just like Sam, and Jack. Why should Mitchell be the only one to suffer?

Something else that someone mentioned [can't remember if it was this thread or not]: why can't we be a fan of Mitchell AND the other characters??? Especially Carter? It's like, if you're a fan of Samantha, you can't be a fan of Mitchell. I love Samantha and occasionally visit that thread, but most of the time I have to leave without saying anything because it's a LoveSamantha/BashMitchell thread. I think one of the reasons I like the Pro Cam/Sam thread is that the people there like both characters. [Okay, it's only about 3 people there, but it's a start.] Even though I don't want the show to give them a romantic relationship [because I probably wouldn't like the way they handled it], I like the thread because I like both characters.

This is what gets me too.
I mean, just because I argue pro-Cam on the leadership thread, I apparently hate Carter.
This is because I show her mistakes to try to show that Cam is NOT doing worse than she was as leader. But no, it means that I 'hate' her. I do not dislike Carter, but neither is she my favourite character. Much like Teal'c.I don't hate him, but I don't particularly like him either.
It's really annoying to have your argument shredded because someone just says, 'oh you don't have a legitimate point, you just hate Sam'.
Then there are the posters that take any Carter criticism personally, wow.
It's possible to say negative things about a char and still like them.

[Dream-a-Little]

Not much Mitchell action, but on a purely superficial level, there were some really great face shots of him. GRROOOWWWWLLLL!
--and let's not forget the opening shaving scene...
I guess a bunch of pictures of Daniel [Vala] admiring Mitchell post-shower will accompany many slash fics of the future!
I thought the episode was a bit boring, and I don't think I've been bored by Stargate before. A bit interesting, but a bit boring, too. I didn't really care for "What I Did On My Summer Vacation by Vala MalDuran", but it was okay. A bunch of plot exposition that could have been done in a few minutes and then they could have moved on to some fun stuff with the team. It might have even been more interesting if they had let Michael Shanks play the Vala part in the SGC. I like Claudia, think she did an excellent job, and I'm interested... wary, but interested... in what she'll bring to the show next season, but this episode just wasn't that compelling to me.

There were a few great lines though. Loved when Mitchell pretty much told Vala she couldn't play around while in Daniel's body. Shades of "You were in my shoes, I was in your pants..." LOL.

“What I Did On My Summer Vacation by Vala MalDuran” ROFL. That’s a pretty good description of the last episode. A lot of people have been describing this episode as the clips show with clips from an episode that we never saw. That’s also probably a pretty good description.

The towel also seems to have been very well received by many Ben fans on other forums. I think many are hoping for further guest shots by Mitchell’s towel in Season 10. Me I’m holding out for a five episode arc for Mitchell’s towel. If you can’t give me Ben in complex emotional scenes, then at least give me Ben sans as much clothing as you can. (pssst.. PTB if you can figure out a way to give me mostly naked Ben in a complex emotional scene there may be some money in it for you… Meet me in the alley out back!) Give the writers this, they may not always get everything right. But one thing they know. Taking clothing off Ben is something that always is going to work!

One of the places that I think that it would have been more effective to have MS play Vala was in the Kawoosh scene. Poor Mitchell, all of a sudden Sam says something that Sam wouldn’t usually say and it’s kind of like OK, is somebody other than Sam in Sam too! LOL But I do think this scene would have worked better if you would have had MS standing next to Sam at the time doing some Vala mannerisms.

With the exception of the towel scene the only thing that makes this episode worth a re-watch for me is Mitchell’s “I’m surprised part of you…” That really popped off the screen at me and made me lean forward. You got a nice reminder flash of what Ben can do when working with complex emotional issues. Sadly this is not a show for complex emotional issues. I’m surprised that found a way to sneak itself in here. Other than that, this is primarily an informational episode and once you have watched it once there really is no reason to watch it again.

Okay, I watched the first three [which were the middle three] Star Wars episodes, but I haven't a clue about 'Darth Vadar not being born'. Anyone? Was this mentioned in the second trilogy, which was really the first trilogy... [confusing, eh?]

That went right past me too. I really tried to watch the more recently done Star Wars episodes, since I really enjoyed the first three with Luke and Han Solo and company, particularly the original movie. But the newer ones were just so badly written and acted. What I did see I just blocked out and I don’t care to go back over any of it to try to get the reference. I realize the special effects are far superior to the original, but really… It amazes me the things that some science fiction fans will spend money on. Really, I would have thought Teal’c would have had better taste.

[ShardsofGlass]

Me I’m holding out for a five episode arc for Mitchell’s towel. If you can’t give me Ben in complex emotional scenes, then at least give me Ben sans as much clothing as you can. (pssst.. PTB if you can figure out a way to give me mostly naked Ben in a complex emotional scene there may be some money in it for you… Meet me in the alley out back!) Give the writers this, they may not always get everything right. But one thing they know. Taking clothing off Ben is something that always is going to work!

Amen, sister! AMEN!! LOL And I would gladly contribute to that fund. We could call it the "Naked Angst" fund. LOL

With the exception of the towel scene the only thing that makes this episode worth a re-watch for me is Mitchell’s “I’m surprised part of you…” That really popped off the screen at me and made me lean forward. You got a nice reminder flash of what Ben can do when working with complex emotional issues.

I'm glad you mentioned that moment because it really popped for me too. It was one of those "sit up straighter and pay more attention" moments. I also had that in Stronghold when Mitchell broke the coffee machine. But this time was because of his gentleness and the way he was connecting with Vala.

[Cpt. Ritter]

But this time was because of his gentleness and the way he was connecting with Vala.

I like Vala and that line of Cam's just made me jump up and down and say... SEE Cam's a nice guy. Of course, he's gotta feel alittle weird considering he's seeing Daniel but it was Vala who walked into the guy's locker room. Gotta love Cam's line...

"Is there something I should know?" While he's shaving mind you and dressed in only a towel. LOL!!

[shester]

I watch Ben closely when he is on because he does so much with his eyes. The whole time he is listening to Vala his eyes tell how he is feeling. I also liked the scene you mentioned (I'm surprised part of you...). Ben and Claudia have such a rapport with each other. The chemistry just bounces off the screen. I love it. Breaking the coffee machine was so intense. Yea! Ben. They really need to let him do what he does best. ACT! Let him improvise. He is good at it.
And he sure is beautiful in that towel.
Sybil

[gbbarb]

I think your right, the problem here is that the fans do seem to give “ownership” of certain things to certain characters. I saw some posters that were outraged to find that Mitchell spoke Chinese. Speaking and understanding other languages “belonged” to Daniel. The response was how dare they give something to Mitchell that belonged to Daniel. I think it is the same thing in regards to one liners. One liners belong to Jack and how dare they give something to Mitchell that belongs to Jack. I actually saw some of that exact same hostility applied to Shepherd. A lot of fans accused him of being “Jack lite” or a Jack clone. Only in this case it’s worse for them, because he does have Jack’s position in the show as team leader and Ben does have his position in the show as lead actor. In their eyes, at least Flanigan had the good grace to “steal” from Jack in a different show. In fact you see that with quite a few people saying that they could deal with the changes better if they had changed the shows name.

Now you can go out of your way to make Mitchell the exact opposite of Jack in defense against this. The problem with that is Mitchell does essentially have to perform the same function within the show that Jack did. So I think in some ways you do need to have some similarities between the characters in order for the show to function properly. Go too far in the defensive writing direction and you end up cutting off your shows nose in order not to spite some of your fans' faces.

Mitchell and the rest of the team can't be close because of the strong bond because O'Neill and Teal'c were like brothers and O'Neill and Sam were a couple of O'Neill and Daniel are a couple depending on which group you are in. Of course they don't want Mitchell on his own but he can't have any significant part of a team episode. Basically he needs to be quiet, sit in a corner, occasionally lead the team thru the gate but not ordering the team only making suggestions and turn over command of the mission to Sam.

Snerk, they just don't want him to exist but they sure spend a lot of time documenting what his does, what he says and every look and gesture Ben makes.

I just pray TPTB realize they would never be happy no matter what happened and to not adjust the show to appease them.

[gbbarb]

And I try to tell myself that I would probably be just as resentful if FarScape had continued on without Ben; if they had brought someone else in as lead. I know I would be resentful and I know it would be hard for me to watch the show, but I sincerely hope that I wouldn't denigrate the new actor or character and realize that much of my discontent was due to my own feelings. I hope I'm self-aware enough to think I would just not make any comments rather than make comments that I knew were colored by my resentfulness of losing Ben.

I know I wouldn't make comments, I would just keep to the things I like or drift off the board. I did that during the 4th season of Farscape when I had serious issues with Aeryn's character. Why should I spoil other people's enjoyment of the character and season when I wasn't as happy? Why spoil other people's fun when complaining isn't going to make me feel better? I just don't understand that mind set. Maybe it is me but I just don't get it.

[gbbarb]

Amen, sister! AMEN!! LOL And I would gladly contribute to that fund. We could call it the "Naked Angst" fund. LOL



I'm glad you mentioned that moment because it really popped for me too. It was one of those "sit up straighter and pay more attention" moments. I also had that in Stronghold when Mitchell broke the coffee machine. But this time was because of his gentleness and the way he was connecting with Vala.

NAKED ANGST!!!! I am so there!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[gbbarb]

I agree. Everyone has quoted the 'under the radar' order at me, but what exactly were they to do there if they weren't to be seen?
Mitchell took action designed to give them the best intel possible.

I'm ok with the taunting. He had to get him mad so he'd abandon the staff and go for hand to hand

Mitchell, Carter, Daniel, no body was wearing a head set. It's within the realm of possibility that in heat of the battle, he didn't hear her order.
Regardless, in true SG style, he's disobeyed and had no consequences. Just like Sam, and Jack. Why should Mitchell be the only one to suffer?

This is what gets me too.
I mean, just because I argue pro-Cam on the leadership thread, I apparently hate Carter.
This is because I show her mistakes to try to show that Cam is NOT doing worse than she was as leader. But no, it means that I 'hate' her. I do not dislike Carter, but neither is she my favourite character. Much like Teal'c.I don't hate him, but I don't particularly like him either.
It's really annoying to have your argument shredded because someone just says, 'oh you don't have a legitimate point, you just hate Sam'.
Then there are the posters that take any Carter criticism personally, wow.
It's possible to say negative things about a char and still like them.

Glad I don't go on that thread because they would hate me. I don't think Sam should be a leader because it is a waste of her abilities. She is too important on the technical side to spend the time leading the team, dealing with the paperwork, writing up the evals, etc.

I am a technical person, I'm great at the difficult stuff, solving problems no one else can and getting tons of work done compared to other people but I suck horribly at leadership skills. I can barely lead small groups but get very frustrated at wasting my time with details that other people could do when I would be better doing something else. I see Sam in the same position, it doesn't make sense to make her a leader. This is not a bad thing but some of the Sam supporters think she has to be great at everything. No one is and it makes the character very boring if she is portrayed that way. I like imperfections because it makes the characters more human.

[ShardsofGlass]

Snerk, they just don't want him to exist but they sure spend a lot of time documenting what his does, what he says and every look and gesture Ben makes.

I just pray TPTB realize they would never be happy no matter what happened and to not adjust the show to appease them.

LOL I've thought of that before, too--that the Mitchell bashers spend an awful lot of time and energy talking about him, analyzing every detail of how he leads, every "mistake" he ever did. LOL

I think TPTB must realize how the fans think. They've been around for a long time, and from what I've heard, these kinds of opinions about things aren't new. Before this, a lot of people hated Jack and Sam for being shippy, or Sam for having too many storylines, etc. Mitchell's the new guy. He's been getting a lot of focus in storylines (thank God!) and so it makes him the guy to take down. Everyone else is sort of the underdog.

[Lightsabre]

LOL I've thought of that before, too--that the Mitchell bashers spend an awful lot of time and energy talking about him, analyzing every detail of how he leads, every "mistake" he ever did. LOL

I think TPTB must realize how the fans think. They've been around for a long time, and from what I've heard, these kinds of opinions about things aren't new. Before this, a lot of people hated Jack and Sam for being shippy, or Sam for having too many storylines, etc. Mitchell's the new guy. He's been getting a lot of focus in storylines (thank God!) and so it makes him the guy to take down. Everyone else is sort of the underdog.

But if they don't analyse his every move and blow stuff way out of proportion, how do they make him look bad.

[Anya]

First...
Okay, I watched the first three [which were the middle three] Star Wars episodes, but I haven't a clue about 'Darth Vadar not being born'. Anyone? Was this mentioned in the second trilogy, which was really the first trilogy... [confusing, eh?]

It was in Phantom Menace (Ep 1 - which I watched twice because Ewan McGregor is just so darn pretty! And the fight scenes were cool). Anyway, Anakin's mom tells Liam Neeson that she doesn't know how he was born. It was the miticloriants! (sp?) Anyway, I think Teal'c watched it for the fight scenes too. That Darth Maul was pretty badass.

[ChillinTheMost]

... I'm ok with the taunting. He had to get him mad so he'd abandon the staff and go for hand to hand ...

Why? Because he was pre-planning to try to steal the crystal? I thought it just happened - that he found the crystal while fighting. Actually, I don't think he could have preplanned that because at the time he started the taunting, he still couldn't "grab" anything. Seriously, I'd like to be able to accept this scene, so please explain further.

This is what gets me too.
I mean, just because I argue pro-Cam on the leadership thread, I apparently hate Carter.
This is because I show her mistakes to try to show that Cam is NOT doing worse than she was as leader. But no, it means that I 'hate' her. I do not dislike Carter, but neither is she my favourite character. Much like Teal'c.I don't hate him, but I don't particularly like him either.
It's really annoying to have your argument shredded because someone just says, 'oh you don't have a legitimate point, you just hate Sam'.
Then there are the posters that take any Carter criticism personally, wow.
It's possible to say negative things about a char and still like them.

I know what you mean. I do like Carter. And I like the more relaxed and joking personna of this year even more than science-geek Carter [which I loved also]. And one of the worst things about some fans pitting them against each other is, they are just so good together. I believe Mitchell is the one that makes Carter more relaxed and fun and humorous. And he's obviously very comfortable being around her and teasing her.

Also, I hear the actors are fond of each other. All of them. I even read one interview with Ben where he visited RDA before the show started, asking for pointers, which shows to me that he's not barging in planning on taking over, like some fans think.

Oh, well... sigh.

[ChillinTheMost]

... The towel also seems to have been very well received by many Ben fans on other forums. I think many are hoping for further guest shots by Mitchell’s towel in Season 10. Me I’m holding out for a five episode arc for Mitchell’s towel. If you can’t give me Ben in complex emotional scenes, then at least give me Ben sans as much clothing as you can. (pssst.. PTB if you can figure out a way to give me mostly naked Ben in a complex emotional scene there may be some money in it for you… Meet me in the alley out back!) Give the writers this, they may not always get everything right. But one thing they know. Taking clothing off Ben is something that always is going to work! ...

Hmmm, a 5-episode arc for the towel.... I think you're on to something here...

That went right past me too. I really tried to watch the more recently done Star Wars episodes, since I really enjoyed the first three with Luke and Han Solo and company, particularly the original movie. But the newer ones were just so badly written and acted. What I did see I just blocked out and I don’t care to go back over any of it to try to get the reference. I realize the special effects are far superior to the original, but really… It amazes me the things that some science fiction fans will spend money on. Really, I would have thought Teal’c would have had better taste.

For as much as I loved the first Star Wars trilogy, by the time they made the second trilogy, I was completed disinterested. Never even got up the interest to watch it on cable. The absence of Han Solo did it for me, I guess.

[ChillinTheMost]

Mitchell and the rest of the team can't be close because of the strong bond because O'Neill and Teal'c were like brothers and O'Neill and Sam were a couple of O'Neill and Daniel are a couple depending on which group you are in. Of course they don't want Mitchell on his own but he can't have any significant part of a team episode. Basically he needs to be quiet, sit in a corner, occasionally lead the team thru the gate but not ordering the team only making suggestions and turn over command of the mission to Sam.

Snerk, they just don't want him to exist but they sure spend a lot of time documenting what his does, what he says and every look and gesture Ben makes.

I just pray TPTB realize they would never be happy no matter what happened and to not adjust the show to appease them.

Yeah. The "new guy" is okay as long as "he knows his place."

Yuk.