Cameron - Discussion and Appreciation

[ChillinTheMost]

http://community.livejournal.com/mit...40.html#cutid1

Another good Mitchell fic which talks about how Cam sees his role in the team - smart author - thinks like we do.

I don't read much fanfic, but I am trying to find good Cam stories. This one was great! Thanks for sharing, gbbarb!!!

[gbbarb]

Here, here! To all that's been said about Mitchell's good leadership skills and all that Mitchell and Ben bring to Stargate!
[Sorry, I've been away... bad cold... so I'm catching up now.]

I wanted to respond to the Mitchell leadership issue, but everyone beat me to what I wanted to say.

I'll even be a bit more positive and say that Mitchell doing the drug trader thing didn't bother me. Why would you send your #1 team to sit in a cornfield and take notes? You have to know that they would take a proactive stance. If I've noticed nothing else about Mitchell, I've noticed that he is proactive. Landry has to know this and he sent him on the mission. Maybe Mitchell didn't make the best drug dealer, but it was a dangerous mission and Daniel and Mary Poppins are too important elsewhere to use as bait. Maybe Teal'c could have done it, but Mitchell was putting his own life on the line and not asking anyone else to do it. Frankly, if Landry only wanted someone to observe, he should have sent SG-159.

In Arthur's Mantle the ONLY thing I saw that could be remotely considered "wrong" was the taunting of Volnek. What was that about? I guess it was to get the crystal, but the writers could have handled that better. Other than that, Arthur's Mantle was near perfection in my eyes.

Storming up the hill in Stronghold? Teal'c and Bratac would be dead if he hadn't done that. That aside, the guy behind him [who seemed to be another leader] told him to "go, go, go" meaning "storm the big gun". I don't know if Carter yelling "Wait for backup" could even be heard by Mitchell. We saw no indication that he heard and ignored. Besides, he was halfway up the hill. Was he supposed to stop in the middle of the hill, exposed, and wait?

The biggest thing in all this is that: this is the was Stargate is. All the heroes are proactive. None moreso than O'Neill. I can see O'Neill doing the same stuff that Mitchell does and he would be praised for it! Hell, I'd praise him for it. It's the stuff heroes are made of. And the same writers are writing this stuff!!! They write their heroes the way they write their heroes, whether they be O'Neill or Mitchell or Sam or Daniel and Teal'c.

Something else that someone mentioned [can't remember if it was this thread or not]: why can't we be a fan of Mitchell AND the other characters??? Especially Carter? It's like, if you're a fan of Samantha, you can't be a fan of Mitchell. I love Samantha and occasionally visit that thread, but most of the time I have to leave without saying anything because it's a LoveSamantha/BashMitchell thread. I think one of the reasons I like the Pro Cam/Sam thread is that the people there like both characters. [Okay, it's only about 3 people there, but it's a start.] Even though I don't want the show to give them a romantic relationship [because I probably wouldn't like the way they handled it], I like the thread because I like both characters.

AAARRRRRGGGGHHHHH! It's so frustrating that everyone else can't see the wonderfulness that Mitchell brings to Stargate! Why must we be the only perfect viewers? haha.
Seriously, I acknowledge that everyone is allowed to have their opinion, but I think if these same exact scripts were used and RDA were still here, the reactions would be totally different. Or if Ben were in this show for 8 years and now RDA were taking his place, some fans would be saying, "RDA is saying Ben's jokes. Only Ben knows how to tell a joke and only he should ever be allowed to give one-liners!"

And you know what I hate the most??? I hate what I just did. Pit one actor/character against the other. RDA was great as O'Neill. O'Neill was a great character. Why can't Ben and Mitchell just be given the same chance?
[And he's not, because after saying that they are giving Ben/Mitchell a chance, they say that nobody can do it like RDA. Yeah, that's being objective. That's starting it with an open mind.]

I also hate this rant that I just had. Maybe I'll delete it later.

Anyway, I know there are some of us excited that a new episode of Stargate is on tonight! Wicked.

But I enjoy your ranting.

I like Cam and Sam as friends. I would love to see writers actually write two attractive, intelligent, nice people as friends with no hints of sexual tension or sexual chemistry - just honest to goodness friends. I like how Ben brings out the humorous side of Amanda, they are a good comedy team and that was not something I expected.

[Cherriey]

First thing I thought when I saw him... 'Wow! They actually did get Ben Browder!'

I think he's hilarious! A different kind of funny from what O'Neill was surely but still funny. =0)

[Kas]

Something else that someone mentioned [can't remember if it was this thread or not]: why can't we be a fan of Mitchell AND the other characters??? Especially Carter? It's like, if you're a fan of Samantha, you can't be a fan of Mitchell. I love Samantha and occasionally visit that thread, but most of the time I have to leave without saying anything because it's a LoveSamantha/BashMitchell thread. I think one of the reasons I like the Pro Cam/Sam thread is that the people there like both characters. [Okay, it's only about 3 people there, but it's a start.] Even though I don't want the show to give them a romantic relationship [because I probably wouldn't like the way they handled it], I like the thread because I like both characters.

Exactly! And I'm pleased that for the most part here, everyone does have that respect for all the characters. I personally love the team and all their contributions... obviously some plots, episodes, characters I like a little better but not enough to 'hate' any fictional character.

I, too, wish certain posters will stop saying they'll give Mitchell a chance only to continuously tear him down. They are watching just to see how he can be torn down episode to episode - from the way he holds his weapon to how he 'spins and acts all animated'. Y'know, I believe that is a reason... Stargate audience is really used to a more conservative, static type of actor in its core team... now along comes Ben, a much more physically emotive and reactive presence and it is throwing some people entirely.

I too, have visited boards and threads of other characters that I really like but never post or feel unable to because, like you, I don't agree with all the 'boost my character up by slamming other character' bias.

[Cherriey]

Exactly! And I'm pleased that for the most part here, everyone does have that respect for all the characters. I personally love the team and all their contributions... obviously some plots, episodes, characters I like a little better but not enough to 'hate' any fictional character.

I, too, wish certain posters will stop saying they'll give Mitchell a chance only to continuously tear him down. They are watching just to see how he can be torn down episode to episode - from the way he holds his weapon to how he 'spins and acts all animated'. Y'know, I believe that is a reason... Stargate audience is really used to a more conservative, static type of actor in its core team... now along comes Ben, a much more physically emotive and reactive presence and it is throwing some people entirely.

I too, have visited boards and threads of other characters that I really like but never post or feel unable to because, like you, I don't agree with all the 'boost my character up by slamming other character' bias.

Yep. =0) Every character has its place. The show would fail without all of them.

[Kas]

But I enjoy your ranting.

I like Cam and Sam as friends. I would love to see writers actually write two attractive, intelligent, nice people as friends with no hints of sexual tension or sexual chemistry - just honest to goodness friends. I like how Ben brings out the humorous side of Amanda, they are a good comedy team and that was not something I expected.

I agree and actually that is what I'm seeing from the writers. From her comforting Mitchell in CD to his concern for her overworking herself... I see good friends.

The comedic scenes between the two are really working out well... loved them in Ripple Effect and Arthur's Mantle... I didn't expect it either... it's great!

[Dani347]

Something else that someone mentioned [can't remember if it was this thread or not]: why can't we be a fan of Mitchell AND the other characters??? Especially Carter? It's like, if you're a fan of Samantha, you can't be a fan of Mitchell.

Just popping in to say I don't understand it either. I mean, not that some people might like Sam and not like Mitchell, but this feeling that it's a given if you like Sam you can't like Mitchell. Like I said in another thread, I'm enjoying Sam a lot more this season, and I had pretty much written her off in season 7. Right now, I find her adorable! But, I also like Mitchell. (He's adorable too, but in a different way )

Of course, I also prefer Sam as 2IC, so I don't feel that she's been slighted by Mitchell, so I don't have that as a factor in how I see him in relation to her.

[ShardsofGlass]

I just wanted to touch on the negativity toward Cam that we were talking about before. I happened upon an old review of Collateral Damage here, and the person said that this ep was just the nail in the coffin for Mitchell. Which, I think is ridiculous, of course. But my point in bringing that up, is that I was remembering how much of the Mitchell bashing occurred even before the start of the second half, or even before the start of the season. Remember how upset people were when Ben got all the media attention last July and was on the cover of TV Guide? And then, before the second half started, how upset they were when they saw the new credits and how many images Ben got and that his name really was first? Remember those blogs of Joe's last fall where people just ripped Mitchell apart, and this was before he had very much to do on the show?

So, maybe I'm reassuring myself more than anything, but I'm trying to remind myself that Mitchell's presence on the show brings up all kinds of issues in fans, and a lot of them have nothing to do with the character itself. And more to do with the perception that the other three characters have been pushed aside. Hell hath no fury like a fan scorned, I guess.

Also, I just wanted to mention this about the leadership issue. There's been a lot of debate about how Mitchell doesn't deserve to be the leader because he has less experience than Sam, and we've seen him make a couple of mistakes. My reaction to that argument is, so what? I don't have a problem with a guy being put in charge who has less SG-type of experience than someone else -- it happens all the time in the real world. For instance, in one company I worked, the new VP of sales was brought in from another company and the company made a completely different product than what we made. (We made books, her last job was wtih a beer company!) So she had a learning curve, obviously. But what she brought with her was her experience in the job and other things I wouldn't know about.

Mitchell's like that. He has experience as a leader, obviously, and he wouldn't ahve made the rank he did if he wasn't any good. Jack and Landry must think he can do the job or they wouldn't have put him in place. It's only natural that he'd make some mistakes and have to learn about waht it's like to lead an SG-1 team.

If getting command of SG-1 was a prize for the person with the most experience, then, yeah, Sam should get it. But it's not. And you know what? Sam would've been very competent, very by-the-book as a leader. I think Mitchell's style is a lot more interesting, even if it's less conventional.

Sorry for rambling.

[Dream-a-Little]

The biggest thing in all this is that: this is the was Stargate is. All the heroes are proactive. None moreso than O'Neill. I can see O'Neill doing the same stuff that Mitchell does and he would be praised for it! Hell, I'd praise him for it. It's the stuff heroes are made of. And the same writers are writing this stuff!!! They write their heroes the way they write their heroes, whether they be O'Neill or Mitchell or Sam or Daniel and Teal'c. <snip>

<snip>Seriously, I acknowledge that everyone is allowed to have their opinion, but I think if these same exact scripts were used and RDA were still here, the reactions would be totally different. Or if Ben were in this show for 8 years and now RDA were taking his place, some fans would be saying, "RDA is saying Ben's jokes. Only Ben knows how to tell a joke and only he should ever be allowed to give one-liners!"

I think your right, the problem here is that the fans do seem to give “ownership” of certain things to certain characters. I saw some posters that were outraged to find that Mitchell spoke Chinese. Speaking and understanding other languages “belonged” to Daniel. The response was how dare they give something to Mitchell that belonged to Daniel. I think it is the same thing in regards to one liners. One liners belong to Jack and how dare they give something to Mitchell that belongs to Jack. I actually saw some of that exact same hostility applied to Shepherd. A lot of fans accused him of being “Jack lite” or a Jack clone. Only in this case it’s worse for them, because he does have Jack’s position in the show as team leader and Ben does have his position in the show as lead actor. In their eyes, at least Flanigan had the good grace to “steal” from Jack in a different show. In fact you see that with quite a few people saying that they could deal with the changes better if they had changed the shows name.

Now you can go out of your way to make Mitchell the exact opposite of Jack in defense against this. The problem with that is Mitchell does essentially have to perform the same function within the show that Jack did. So I think in some ways you do need to have some similarities between the characters in order for the show to function properly. Go too far in the defensive writing direction and you end up cutting off your shows nose in order not to spite some of your fans' faces.

[Cpt. Ritter]

Sorry to get off topic slightly but I just watched an old episode of Farscape, "Family Ties" I think it was. Anyway, in that episode, Ben had so many wonderfully emotional moments that I was in tears. In the very last scene he delivers this wonderfully eloquent line, all with more emotion than I've seen in a show since... well never. I'd love to see that kind of talent being used in Mitchell for and episode or two, because that just rocked my socks further into realizing that Ben in dynamite on the show. There's so much he's holding back, suppressed beneath the surface. I have high hopes.

On everyone's ranting, I just can't stay focused long enough to do one of those myself, but kudos to everyone for doing that.

One note I have to make

I happened upon an old review of Collateral Damage here, and the person said that this ep was just the nail in the coffin for Mitchell. Which, I think is ridiculous, of course.

Sorry, about to swear profusely here. &%*$*&*&#$*&*&#$*$%&# OKay, better now. How can anyone say that about Collateral Damage. At least in my mind it was one of the best episodes of the Season, and a personal favorite of mine, so much emotion and tension!!!

[Dream-a-Little]

Something else that someone mentioned [can't remember if it was this thread or not]: why can't we be a fan of Mitchell AND the other characters??? Especially Carter? It's like, if you're a fan of Samantha, you can't be a fan of Mitchell. I love Samantha and occasionally visit that thread, but most of the time I have to leave without saying anything because it's a LoveSamantha/BashMitchell thread. I think one of the reasons I like the Pro Cam/Sam thread is that the people there like both characters. [Okay, it's only about 3 people there, but it's a start.] Even though I don't want the show to give them a romantic relationship [because I probably wouldn't like the way they handled it], I like the thread because I like both characters.

I love Mitchell/Carter and hope to see more of it in season 10. One of the things that I enjoyed the most in Arthur’s Mantel was watching Mitchell and Sam interact. That was the biggest chunk of time so far that they have been on screen together and I liked what I saw. There seems to be a really nice wry friendship interaction developing between the two of them. I would love to have the writers put Ben and Amanda together more and give them a chance to build on that. And I don’t assume a strong relationship between a man and a woman has to go the romance route.

The other series regulars are the people the “favorite character” is going to have his or her primary relationships with. Why not cut those characters some slack. And why would someone only want to see the “favorite character” interact only with characters he or she has previously interacted with. Why just the same old same old over and over again. If they want that why not just keep replaying their old DVD’s over and over again. It’s like people who insist on eating the same hamburger and fries for lunch all the time and won’t even try something new. What a small world to want to inhabit.

I also don’t understand the concept of “my favorite character” is wonderful and all other characters must walk three paces behind or suffer my wrath syndrome. There is an insecurity there that seems like maybe they would be better off finding a more substantial “favorite character”. You know, one that can actually hold up in a room full of other strong performances. One that isn’t threatened that easily. JMO of course.

[ChillinTheMost]

First thing I thought when I saw him... 'Wow! They actually did get Ben Browder!'

I think he's hilarious! A different kind of funny from what O'Neill was surely but still funny. =0)

First...

WELCOME, CHERRIEY! I don't think I've welcomed you yet. Please feel free to join in with the discussions. We all admire Ben here and are delighted that he has joined the Stargate ranks. We also enjoy discussing the character of Mitchell, what we like about him and even if we find some things we don't care for - he IS just human, you know!

Second.... great discussions, everyone! I'll comment as time permits [or maybe I'll wait until I'm at work this week], but mostly I'm checking in to see how Friday's episode fared with everyone.

Not much Mitchell action, but on a purely superficial level, there were some really great face shots of him. GRROOOWWWWLLLL!
--and let's not forget the opening shaving scene...
I guess a bunch of pictures of Daniel [Vala] admiring Mitchell post-shower will accompany many slash fics of the future!
I thought the episode was a bit boring, and I don't think I've been bored by Stargate before. A bit interesting, but a bit boring, too. I didn't really care for "What I Did On My Summer Vacation by Vala MalDuran", but it was okay. A bunch of plot exposition that could have been done in a few minutes and then they could have moved on to some fun stuff with the team. It might have even been more interesting if they had let Michael Shanks play the Vala part in the SGC. I like Claudia, think she did an excellent job, and I'm interested... wary, but interested... in what she'll bring to the show next season, but this episode just wasn't that compelling to me.

There were a few great lines though. Loved when Mitchell pretty much told Vala she couldn't play around while in Daniel's body. Shades of "You were in my shoes, I was in your pants..." LOL.

Okay, I watched the first three [which were the middle three] Star Wars episodes, but I haven't a clue about 'Darth Vadar not being born'. Anyone? Was this mentioned in the second trilogy, which was really the first trilogy... [confusing, eh?]

[ChillinTheMost]

...So, maybe I'm reassuring myself more than anything, but I'm trying to remind myself that Mitchell's presence on the show brings up all kinds of issues in fans, and a lot of them have nothing to do with the character itself. And more to do with the perception that the other three characters have been pushed aside. Hell hath no fury like a fan scorned, I guess. ...

And I try to tell myself that I would probably be just as resentful if FarScape had continued on without Ben; if they had brought someone else in as lead. I know I would be resentful and I know it would be hard for me to watch the show, but I sincerely hope that I wouldn't denigrate the new actor or character and realize that much of my discontent was due to my own feelings. I hope I'm self-aware enough to think I would just not make any comments rather than make comments that I knew were colored by my resentfulness of losing Ben.

[ChillinTheMost]

Sorry to get off topic slightly but I just watched an old episode of Farscape, "Family Ties" I think it was. Anyway, in that episode, Ben had so many wonderfully emotional moments that I was in tears. In the very last scene he delivers this wonderfully eloquent line, all with more emotion than I've seen in a show since... well never. I'd love to see that kind of talent being used in Mitchell for and episode or two, because that just rocked my socks further into realizing that Ben in dynamite on the show. There's so much he's holding back, suppressed beneath the surface. I have high hopes.

Family Ties is one of my favorite FarScape episodes. Ben himself said it was like a symphony.

Hmmm, this just made me think... Family Ties is an episode where not much happens, much like this past episode of Stargate. Or, actually, a lot of stuff happens in FT, but the "action" is overshadowed by the slower, poignant parts of the episode. But that episode never got boring. It was, simply, beautiful. But then, it involved all of the cast, whereas, this past episode of Stargate [and I can't even remember the name of it right now] didn't so much.

And, yes, Ben's talents haven't been plumbed by Stargate too much. I'm not sure the type of show it is really allows this, but it would be nice if they could fit a few more instances where Ben shows more than his cocky, smart alecky side.

[Dream-a-Little]

First thing I thought when I saw him... 'Wow! They actually did get Ben Browder!'

I think he's hilarious! A different kind of funny from what O'Neill was surely but still funny. =0)

Welcome Cherriey! That was my first reaction too!