Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[fems]

I always sort of figured Jack didn't want to raise any flags by supporting Sam unconditionally when everyone else already thought she was nuts. At least when Daniel was acting crazy they all suspected there was something affecting him (after a while, but nevertheless) but now everyone assumed Sam had lost it. This isn't too long after all the shippy stuff in season 4 and Entity so I can see why Jack would try to take a step back and for once sort of go with the flow.

Anyway, just wanted to say I don't think everyone should be blaming Jack in this instance, as everyone else was just as bad. Even Janet and Daniel, who are usually more understanding/cautious when dealing with craziness.

[ajay]

Just playing devil's advocate here for the sake of discussion...

Did anyone actually come right out and call Sam nuts/crazy/lost it in this episode, or is that just the read you get from the way they treated her? From what I remember, she agreed to the surveillance. And how do we know who made the decision to keep a couple of bugs in the house after the cameras were removed? That could have been the influence of Simmons. With him sticking his nose in, I can see why Jack would want to be cautious in allowing Sam to "hypothetically" learn more about Orlin.

And yeah, the guy was creepy and stalkerish. But if a millennia-year old alien offered to share all he knew with me and could build a stargate in my basement and make precious stones in my microwave, I'd be intrigued too. But that could be just me.

[hedwig]

Just playing devil's advocate here for the sake of discussion...

Did anyone actually come right out and call Sam nuts/crazy/lost it in this episode, or is that just the read you get from the way they treated her? From what I remember, she agreed to the surveillance. And how do we know who made the decision to keep a couple of bugs in the house after the cameras were removed? That could have been the influence of Simmons. With him sticking his nose in, I can see why Jack would want to be cautious in allowing Sam to "hypothetically" learn more about Orlin.

And yeah, the guy was creepy and stalkerish. But if a millennia-year old alien offered to share all he knew with me and could build a stargate in my basement and make precious stones in my microwave, I'd be intrigued too. But that could be just me.

Sam agreed to the original surveillance by the SGC. That was shown with her sitting in her home office with Jack, and the people around them installing cameras in various places. Without telling anyone at the SGC, Col. Simmons took the whole thing several steps further by having other surveillance cameras in place, even after the ones installed by the SGC were removed. I do believe Jack and Hammond were just just as shocked as Sam was when they found out the surveillance had been continued after the SGC cameras had been removed.

And I thought there was a scene were Jack told Sam everyone thought she was nuts. But I can't find it in the transcript, so it could have been some other episode he said it in. However, the way everyone was treating her throughout the episode, pretty much implied they thought she was having emotional problems.

[hlndncr]

Here's a proposed schedule for the rest of the Season 5 rewatch. It's two episodes a week with a week off around Ship Day to encourage participation in that event. I'd say try and stick with the dates listed, but in no one will balk if you post a review within +/- 2 days.

The only episodes that still need to be claimed are The Warrior (which I gave up because I will be travelling in Scotland at the time) and Menace. Any takers?

Season 5 Rewatch Schedule:

June 29: The Fifth Man - SaraBahama
July 2: Red Sky- ajay
July 6: Rite of Passage - SaraBahama
July 9: Beast of Burden - hlndncr
July 13: The Tomb - neverendingimagination
July 16: Between Two Fires - hlndncr
July 20: 2001 - IamDKScully
July 23: Desperate Measures - SaraBahama
Aug. 3: Wormhole X-Treme - ajay
Aug. 6: Proving Ground - SaraBahama
Aug. 10: 48 Hours - Robinbishop1231
Aug. 13: Summit - Sparky She-Demon
Aug. 17: Last Stand - Sparky She-Demon
Aug. 20: Fail Safe - neverendingimagination
Aug. 24: The Warrior
Aug. 27: Menace
Sept. 3: The Sentinel - hlndncr
Sept. 7: Meridian - Everlovin
Sept. 10: Revelations - Robinbishop1231

[Everlovin]

I'll take Warrior

[SaraBahama]

Ok...I watched The Fifth Man earlier...gimme a minute to finish the review.

[majorsal]

And I thought there was a scene were Jack told Sam everyone thought she was nuts. But I can't find it in the transcript, so it could have been some other episode he said it in. However, the way everyone was treating her throughout the episode, pretty much implied they thought she was having emotional problems.

i found a transcript. here's a part:

CARTER: Colonel, I did my duty in reporting the alien encounter and now everyone thinks I'm crazy.

O'NEILL: Look, Carter, here's the bottom line. No one has seen what you've seen and until that happens we're all going to think you're nuts.


and yes, jack was especially buttheadedly in the ep.

[hedwig]

i found a transcript. here's a part:

CARTER: Colonel, I did my duty in reporting the alien encounter and now everyone thinks I'm crazy.

O'NEILL: Look, Carter, here's the bottom line. No one has seen what you've seen and until that happens we're all going to think you're nuts.


and yes, jack was especially buttheadedly in the ep.

Thanks for finding that. I knew it was in there somewhere.

But, again, by now (5th season) people shouldn't be so quick to think another person is "nuts" because of something they see that no one else does. I guess they learned their lesson by Season 6 when Jonas Quinn was seeing things no one else did. They at least gave him the benefit of the doubt - something they didn't bother to give Sam in "Ascension".

[SaraBahama]

The Fifth Man

Favorite quotes:

HAMMOND: Escort them to the Infirmary.
CARTER: With or without reinforcements, we are going back Sir.
HAMMOND: The hell you are. Relinquish your weapons.
HAMMOND: Airmen! Major Carter I will authorised the use of force unless you relinquish those weapons immediately.


TEAL'C: I am loyal to the Tauri.
SIMMONS: Why should I believe you?
TEAL'C: If I were still loyal to the Goa'uld you would know it.
SIMMONS: Really?
TEAL'C: It would be immediately apparent, as I would not hesitate to kill you where you sit.


TYLER: Colonel, you could have made it to the Gate. You came back for me.
O'NEILL: What's your point?
TYLER: I guess I'm grateful.
O'NEILL: Well I wasn't going to let you die Lieutenant. It's like…a ton of paperwork.
TYLER: Paperwork.
O'NEILL: It's a joke. My way of deflecting attention from my own obvious heroism. You'll get used to it.


Synopsis

Under attack from Jaffa on P7S-441, SG-1 attempts to escape through the Stargate. However, Lt. Tyler, who is with them, is injured and Colonel Jack O’Neill stays behind to help him while Major Samantha Carter, Dr. Daniel Jackson and Teal’c go for reinforcements. Upon arriving at Stargate Command, the three learn that there is no Lt. Tyler. As the members of SG-1 seem to have false memories, they are not allowed to go back through and are sent to the infirmary. After the evaluation Carter hacks into the base computer system and to their surprise finds out, that there really never was a Lt. Tyler. However they find out that a mysterious 'User 4574' has been looking through the SGC files for their past missions.

Back at the planet O'Neill and Tyler hide in the ruins of an old stone structure. Soon a Death Glider finds them, and although O'Neill is able to bring it down with a grenade launcher, their position is already compromised, and he begins setting up defenses as Tyler is still incapacitated
.
Later Colonel Simmons from The Pentagon arrives to question the members of SG-1 and General Hammond begins to suspect that he might be involved with the NID. During the inquiry Simmons reveals that he isn't fond of SG-1 at all, accusing Daniel of sympathizing with the ones that have been taken as hosts by the Goa'uld and questioning Sam's judgment due to her encounters with Jolinar and the Entity, and the romantic encounter with Orlin. He also suggests that Teal'c is still loyal to his old masters but Teal'c counters this by pointing out that he would have killed Simmons where he sat if such was the case. Carter in turn confronts him about User 4574, who Simmons apparently is. In the meantime Dr Fraiser examines the clothing SG-1 wore on the mission and she comes in contact with an alien powder, giving her a brief memory of seeing Lt. Tyler. The powder is similar to the neurotransmitter acetylcholine (although the chemical structure shown on her computer does not actually look like it) and she concludes that this is what caused SG-1's false memories of Tyler.

On the planet, Tyler confesses to O'Neill that he is in fact a Reol named Kaiael and what he has done to them. He also shows him his real form and tells him that his species uses their abilities to survive. When the Goa’uld found out about their abilities they started to hunt the Reol hoping to use their memory-altering abilities for themselves. Nevertheless O'Neill is determined to save both of them.

After Dr. Fraiser determines the effects of the powder, SG-1 gets permission to go rescue O'Neill, despite the objections from Simmons. Carter, Jackson, and Teal'c manage to arrive just in time to help O'Neill finish off the Jaffa, who attacked their position and nearly overwhelmed them. As a large amount of Jaffa are now guarding the Stargate, Daniel stays with Tyler while the others plan to retrieve a staff cannon from the Death Glider which O'Neill shot down earlier for additional firepower. Feeling responsible for SG-1's trouble, Tyler stuns Daniel with a Zat and flees into the woods to lead the Jaffa away from the gate but is quickly captured. Having succeeded in their plan, SG-1 ambushes the group of Jaffa who are taking Tyler back and kill the remaining Jaffa at the gate.

In the end Kaiael thanks them for their help and tells them that his people will likely bury their Stargate. Back in the SGC, Simmons plans on reporting serious problems within SGC, with which he hopes to bring down Hammond.
(synopsis from stargate: solutions site)


General

I like this concept. An alien who uses a chemical to infiltrate a group for it's own protection: imbedding memories going back weeks to make their presence acceptable. It’s just a little unique. He looks kind of creepy, but has a gentle personality you just want to protect.

Jack reiterates several times that the subterfuge was not necessary: he and SG-1 would have helped him no matter what. “Tyler” does a good job of explaining why being blut was not a good option, since the team members were strangers to him and he was in the middle of trying to escape his most recent captivity by the Gou’ald.

There is definitely themes running through this episode...one of them is loyalty:

Jack insists to “Tyler” on more than one occasion that they don’t leave men behind. I’m forcibly reminded that Jack himself was left behind in Iraq (and will be again in next season’s ‘Abyss’...but I’m getting ahead of myself), so he understands what the stakes are and what treatment awaits a soldier left to be captured by enemy soldiers.

Sam, Daniel, and Teal’c are loyal to Jack when they insist on returning through the gate to help him; Sam in particular, since her initial refusal to surrender her weapon could land her in a court-martial.

On to Simmons: John de Lancie certainly plays characters that I love to hate. Simmons is definitely a man with an agenda. He picks apart our favorite team, pointing out what shortcomings throw all of their allegiance into doubt. My absolute favorite moment of interaction is with Teal’c, when he is practically accusing him of still being loyal to the Goa’uld

Teal'c: " If I were still loyal to the Goa'uld you would know it...I would not hesitate to kill you where you sit."
I did get some satisfaction from Sam fighting back...to the point that Simmons cut the interview short when she identified him with the hacker..

The writers were also on their game with this ep. I had wondered why SG-1 hadn’t just assumed they had gated to a different time period or universe: no sooner had I asked the question myself, that the writers answered it: The team discussed the fact that the gate doesn't transport to parallel universes..

It made me proud to see Hammond harassing the political higher ups to find out who Simmons was: he was obviously calling political leaders for hours trying to find out who Simmons was..

One thing I didn’t care for: Tyler zatted Daniel and left him out in the open. I see this as a little slip by the writers. It was extremely dangerous- a sentry could have walked up at any time.


S/J

The most obvious example of ship here was Carter’s refusal...let me say that again: REFUSAL to relinquish her weapons.

I don’t see how she could have been blind to the fact that it was insubordination. This is our by-the-book Sam Carter here. What makes her refuse to obey a command that she would normally acquiesce to?

She is in an adrenaline fueled state of agitation at not being able to return. Almost frenzied.

NOTE: That’s all for now, guys. More tomorrow. I’m falling asleep here.


PS: to a certain extent, Hammond and Janet are treating them like they're crazy in this episode, too.

[hlndncr]

Thanks for the review, Sara! Great job!

I really enjoy this episode. I don't know that it stands out on any of my top whatever lists, but it is a good solid episode that is very entertaining and has an interesting premise, a unique alien and some good character interactions.

I think Janet was more open to Sam's suggestions to investigate for herself rather than inform anyone of her own "memories" of Tyler because she was conscious of the earlier incident with Orlin. But Hammond's reaction was a bit hasty and severe. I guess having an invisible alien come through your stargate and take up residence in one of his officer's homes made him even more weary.

I enjoyed the character of "Tyler." I thought he was interesting and likeable. And his interactions with Jack were superb. He learned to trust humanity because of Jack's honor, courage, and as you pointed out Sara - loyalty.

Not a lot of shippiness in this ep. I really think of this as a team outing. Yes, Sam was being insubordinate, sneaky, and to Simmons absolutely contemptuous (and I liked seeing her that way), but Daniel and Teal'c were right there with her backing her up. They were all ready to do whatever it would take to save Jack. It was awesome. I felt the bond they all share. And sometimes for me that can be just as delicious as any overt shippiness (not that I would complain about a little "so glad your safe" hug mind you).

For entertainment value I'd give this episode a 6/10. It's a good solid episode that I enjoy sitting down to from time to time. For shippiness I have to go with a 4/10, shipper boredom would set in if I have to watch too many eps in row like this, with no real hint of any ship. Unfortunately, this is season 5, so . . . .

[SaraBahama]

I'm glad that review came out half decent: I was falling asleep at the keyboard! RL weekend stuff almost made me late for the posting deadline.

[Everlovin]

I adore Fifth Man. I think if anything, tptb came short in any sort of follow through. Simmons was nicely oily in questioning Sam, Daniel, and Teal'c for no real other reason than to be oily and nasty. I think they could have carried that well into future episodes rather than the three or four further ones he's in.

Further, I think they could have done so much more with the Riole (Tyler's people) than they did aside from obliquely mention them with the memory messer upper stuff they used in Summit and Company of Thieves.

Aside from that, I adore this episode as a stand alone.

[Everlovin]

I adore Fifth Man. I think if anything, tptb came short in any sort of follow through. Simmons was nicely oily in questioning Sam, Daniel, and Teal'c for no real other reason than to be oily and nasty. I think they could have carried that well into future episodes rather than the three or four further ones he's in.

Further, I think they could have done so much more with the Riole (Tyler's people) than they did aside from obliquely mention them with the memory messer upper stuff they used in Summit and Company of Thieves.

Aside from that, I adore this episode as a stand alone.

[hlndncr]

Season 5 Rewatch Schedule:

June 29: The Fifth Man - SaraBahama
July 2: Red Sky- ajay
July 6: Rite of Passage - SaraBahama
July 9: Beast of Burden - hlndncr
July 13: The Tomb - neverendingimagination
July 16: Between Two Fires - hlndncr
July 20: 2001 - IamDKScully
July 23: Desperate Measures - SaraBahama
Aug. 3: Wormhole X-Treme - ajay
Aug. 6: Proving Ground - SaraBahama
Aug. 10: 48 Hours - Robinbishop1231
Aug. 13: Summit - Sparky She-Demon
Aug. 17: Last Stand - Sparky She-Demon
Aug. 20: Fail Safe - neverendingimagination
Aug. 24: The Warrior - Everlovin
Aug. 27: Menace
Sept. 3: The Sentinel - hlndncr
Sept. 7: Meridian - Everlovin
Sept. 10: Revelations - Robinbishop1231

Anyone for Menace? I'll be on a plane all that day or I would definitely choose it over Sentinel. But that just means more fun for one of you.

[Everlovin]

A part of me says "Yeah, sure! I'll do Menace." Mostly because that's the first episode I recall watching. Late August you say?

If no one else volunteers in another week two, I'll take it.