Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[VSS]

In any case they still seem to have a rather broken and painful relationship, there is anger there but neither hates the other. Which is justifiable because of the death of Charlie. I would suggest that seeing each other in CL was closure for Sara,

Okay, this makes sense to me. If I keep that in mind, the lack of a divorce until after CL doesn't warp my perception of the ship we saw in the first few episodes. So you're saying he had already moved on, more or less?

In any case, I believe that between the events of CL and BC Jack knew that his marriage really was over and he was, dare I say it, 'on the rebound'. He wanted to rebel (and revel) a little, so he 'let his hair down' and um, went off (?), with Kynthia .

I do disagree with this, he wouldn't let his hair down on a mission, would he? That would be unprofessional, I think. Plus, he was drugged!

I have no problem with the idea that Jack and Sara were still technically married for those first few episodes. You can be technically still married to someone and not live with them or love them any more. Having said that, once you have loved (and especially had a child) with someone its difficult to let that go, and a part of you will always hold a 'candle' (excuse the pun) for that person. I don't believe this casts a negative light on the flegdling shippy moments we have seen. In fact, IMO it gives a real depth to Jack's character. He is damaged goods, and it's going to take him a long time to get over the sudden and drastic changes in his life. This is where Sam comes in; he slowly begins to see her as the light, the woman who can put his life back together and give it some semblance of meaning.

That's a nice explanation, thanks! I feel better now.

Yeah I have to say it's really not one of my favourites, but I made myself watch it Once I got past the "suduction" scene it felt a bit more like an SG1 episode and I started to like parts of the ep a bit more

My reaction, too. You know what really puts me off? The little dancing scene- what a cliche that was!

I know the 'cake' drugged Jack, but still, first he allows himself to be separated/taken by 'attactive girls', and then follows Kynthia into the house..
Then there's the whole rape thing which only manifests as Carter's disapproval, if it had been Carter a) Jack would never have let 3 guys drag her off and b) he would never have let her be taken inside. It's one of these guys don't seem to get raped things (See Hathor for Daniel's turn). It's clear in the next scene he doesn't really know what happened, or more accurately how it happened.

It turns out to be every bit as dangerous for Jack as it would have been for Carter, doesn't it? She would have been traumatized by Turghan's intentions in Emancipation, but it wouldn't have killed her. Kynthia very nearly killed Jack. I think that it's not just a male/female difference in perception, but also there are studies that show people like and trust beautiful people. And Daniel noted right off that they were all quite attractive. Still, they all should have known better.

Kynthia still trying to push Sam out of the way to talk to Jack by herself, in the last shot it strikes me that even with the different coloured hair, Kynthia looks a lot like Sara in facial structure, I wonder if that was deliberate or just my imagination

Of all the women who had their eye on Jack in this series, she's the one I like the least, because of the drugs. In her perfect little world, why was that necessary?

The only thing that may not fit as well with this is the letter to Sara. Well the fact that he started/wanted to write one at least. But maybe the fact that he didn't get any further than "Dear Sara" could fit with your theory. Maybe as he didn't feel the need to justify himself to her anymore if that's the case.

I don't think it fit, either. I'm not sure that it runs counter to Sarai's thoughts, though. To me it seemed like part of the sappy, sentimental, self-pitying Jack that kind of threw me. I would have thought he'd be pacing around looking for a way out instead of helplessly waiting for Sam and the others to find a solution, writing notes to Sara, and learning the meaning of life from Kynthia! Of course, in the end, he did figure it out, but that was serendipitous.

[Sarai]

Okay, this makes sense to me. If I keep that in mind, the lack of a divorce until after CL doesn't warp my perception of the ship we saw in the first few episodes. So you're saying he had already moved on, more or less?

Exactly. If we take it that Stargate the Movie runs concurrently with the SG-1 timeline, by the start of the series Jack and Sara will have been separated for over a year. I'm not suggesting that's enough time to get over someone you've been married, or heaven forbid the death of a child, but I do think it was long enough to give them both a sense of closure.

That and the fact that even though the Jack character is different from the film to the series, he obviously goes through a very traumatic experience in the movie. Something life-altering and even sublime. Something that, I believe, sets him on the road to a new lease of life .

I do disagree with this, he wouldn't let his hair down on a mission, would he? That would be unprofessional, I think. Plus, he was drugged!

I see what you mean, perhaps "Let his hair down" was the wrong turn of phrase. What I'm thinking, and not articulating very well, is that IMO Jack in Season 1 is still a fairly damaged character. The events of the movie set him on the right road but he still stumbles. I honestly believe accepting the cake was a way of throwing off the shackles, so to speak.

At the same time perhaps its the sense of wanderlust really getting to him. They've done a few missions through the gate by this time, they always fix everything that goes wrong. Arriving on a planet where the folks are having a big party and everyone's happy might even have lulled him into a false sense of security. I'm not saying I don't think Jack's a good leader, in fact I think he's phenomenal (in every sense of the word ), but I do think as regards the Stargate he's still out of his comfort zone, and it takes him a while to find his feet properly. Consider the episodes where he and Daniel have moral arguments and he makes some very questionable leading decisions without having the full facts (I'm thinking of The Other Side, Scorched Earth...). Just a theory, but I do believe it's taking him a while to find his feet on these missions that are unlike anything any of them have experienced before.

Of all the women who had their eye on Jack in this series, she's the one I like the least, because of the drugs. In her perfect little world, why was that necessary?

Agreed. Although if it's a competition I still dislike Laira more .

I don't think it fit, either. I'm not sure that it runs counter to Sarai's thoughts, though. To me it seemed like part of the sappy, sentimental, self-pitying Jack that kind of threw me. I would have thought he'd be pacing around looking for a way out instead of helplessly waiting for Sam and the others to find a solution, writing notes to Sara, and learning the meaning of life from Kynthia! Of course, in the end, he did figure it out, but that was serendipitous.

Good point, I do find it odd that he gives up so easily. But then, I do think it runs well with my earlier points:

Jack loses his son.
Goes on a 'suicide mission' to another planet.
Miraculously survives and whilst he will never be the same, he sees the light at the end of the tunnel.
Gets pulled back into the world of the Gate just over a year later, in which he has become estranged from his wife.
Begins to take a team through the gate, leading them through dangerous and life-threatening situations but always will a positive outcome.
Begins to feel a sense of wanderlust and even a false sense of safety.
Gets thrown for six in BC, which just jerks him back into 'suicide' mode all those thoughts and feelings about Charlie and Sara from the first mission resurface.
He writes a letter to try and apologise to this woman he loved and had a child with.

IMO he gives up towards the end of BC, hence the letter. Yes, he's started to see something in Sam but its something neither of them understand yet. IMO Jack doesn't realise his feelings for Sam until Season 2/3, he might be falling for her in Season 1, but its more of a physical attraction. It's just my humble opinion, but its my story and I'm sticking to it .

Good discussion though

[VSS]

Heh. I certainly do see the logic, now.
This is why I love this discussion thread, I'm really not that deep. I have to work at it.

[VSS]

The Nox

Favorite Quote: The very young often do not do what they are told. (I use this quote at home).
Favorite Scene: When Nefrayu puts his hand on Sam’s shoulder and adoringly says “Carter,” Jack sees the smile on her face and says “No, you can’t keep him.” This scene is part of the banner:

Banner by starlover!

This is another one of those episodes that are supposed to make us think about our society.

Spoiler:

We’re also introduced to one of the central conflicts that will provide many stories to come, and that is the value (or lack thereof) of the SGC in terms of military advances and technology. Teal'c once again shows both his allegiance and his usefulness in providing information about the goa'uld and possible new technologies.

Interestingly, Jack is coming around to Daniel and Sam’s viewpoint about exploration and learning, whereas as recently as The Broca Divide he scoffed at the concept.

So- what about Sam leaving her position to go to Jack’s aid and then getting killed herself? Is that just a newbie mistake or does she know better and lets her feelings override her training? It’s interesting that she doesn’t like Daniel poking at her after she’s resurrected, but doesn’t mind turning around and doing the very same thing to Jack.

Spoiler:

And what about the Nox? I think the meaning in this episode is what constitutes real strength and power; and the uses of violence. The thing that bugs me about all of the advanced races is that (except for the Asgard) they are indifferent to what goes on with other sentient creatures. So, are they really better than we are, after all? Or is the best defense a good offense- like what humans tend to do? Jack points out that we tend to want to help those who are weaker. The Nox, the Ancients, the Furlings, the Tollan- they all want to stay out of it, but then again they can afford to be pacifists. Their technology allows it.

Sam seems to be getting more comfortable around Jack- when he immediately makes the bow & arrows she says, “What do you expect when you spend half of your life in special forces?” Later on, Jack attaches the tranquilizer dart. He’s a smart tactician- just like in Brief Candle where he figured out there must be a transmitter of some kind, he notices the spear can get tossed through Apophis’ shield, and when Sam has this long-winded exposition about kinetic energy and force fields, he just says “Yeah.” I think he gets what she’s saying most of the time, but only when he cares enough to actually listen.

Neither Daniel nor Jack can make any headway with getting information from the Nox. I get the feeling they’ve been around this barbeque before. Why won’t they share the medical knowledge, though? Do they think it’s past our abilities since it seems to be some kind of mental ability?

Thor’s Hammer

Favorite scene: In the gateroom, on the ramp when Daniel is all excited about the “gift box” and Jack’s just nodding his head and smiling a little. It’s almost as if he thinks Daniel’s exuberance is kind of cute, like a kid with a new toy. At any rate, Jack seems to have become more patient.

Favorite Quote:

Unas: I could help you escape.
Jack: A map would be nice. (Then he shoots the Unas).

Thanks, Achaja!

Of course, since I’m keeping track of this, I noticed Sam and Jack are once again seated by each other in the briefing room. That makes 4 times out of 5, and the one time it wasn’t really Jack!

I have a question.

Spoiler:

If the Egyptians rose up and drove Ra away 5000 years ago, why did Thor feel compelled to bring some humans here? They were safe on earth, weren’t they? Also, how were the Shavadai (Emancipation) brought to their planet? They were clearly put there by the goa’uld, but Ra had been long gone from earth by the time the Mongol civilization sprang up. There shouldn’t have been any post-pharaohnic peoples transported to the other planets, but there seem to be quite a few. Obviously, I’m missing something.

I really love this ep for the two strong female guest characters, Gairwyn and Kendra. Kathryn Powers wrote this. Whatever happened to her? Would having female writers around have improved the series?

It’s interesting how Sam immediately figures out Jack might not have been harmed and Gairwyn confirms that. In the last three episodes, it’s Sam who’s been concerned about his personal welfare first. Of course she is the medic, but I think she’s more attuned on a personal level, as well.

Once again Daniel gets his hopes up- Kendra was a former host. He thinks Sha’re had a strong enough spirit to be able to fight, to control the goa’uld, but I do think what Kendra did was truly extraordinary. Was he overly optimistic about Sh’are’s chances? Sam definitely thought so- but I think she just wanted Kendra to stop with the spiritual mumbo-jumbo and find her teammates, dammit!

Jack figures out that Thor is a hologram- again confirming he’s no dummy. James Earl Jones is the voice of the Unas. That’s very cool! Hurray for primitive projectile-based weaponry!

Ultimately, the choice has to be made between Teal’c’s life and a possible chance at being able to save Sha’re and Skaara. I must say, I think Jack was unnecessarily cruel in making Daniel be the one who knocks out the goa’uld killing device. Why does he do that? To toughen Daniel up or to drive home the point that the team has to come first? Daniel isn’t a military man and I found this to be a disturbing thing for Jack to make him do. It’s like a gang initiation where someone is forced to do something very unsavory just to prove his allegiance.

Implications for Sam and Jack: These two episodes are nice team episodes, especially Thor’s Hammer. Not very shippy, but I think the contrast between these and the earlier ones demonstrate how quickly the undercurrent between Jack and Sam developed.

[Aveo_amacus]

Sorry still on BC..

My reaction, too. You know what really puts me off? The little dancing scene- what a cliche that was!

Ugh!!
I kept pausing it and almost turned it off, but forced myself to get past it to the rest of the episode.

It turns out to be every bit as dangerous for Jack as it would have been for Carter, doesn't it? She would have been traumatized by Turghan's intentions in Emancipation, but it wouldn't have killed her. Kynthia very nearly killed Jack. I think that it's not just a male/female difference in perception, but also there are studies that show people like and trust beautiful people. And Daniel noted right off that they were all quite attractive. Still, they all should have known better.

Well Sam probably would have been killed, as she would have tried to fight him off, but I get your point.
It's a common(?) thing of Daniel's - he makes an observation and doesn't substanciate, he's an anthropologist, is he going to analyse the culture or eat cake?? (sorry the anthopologist in me takes offense)

Of all the women who had their eye on Jack in this series, she's the one I like the least, because of the drugs. In her perfect little world, why was that necessary?

Yeah I'm not fond of her either, but with regarding the drugs I do think that ignorance could be a strong defense. The Chosen were clearly not educated - they don't know what writing is. I'm not sure that Kynthia *knew* it was drugged - she wouldn't have taken the cake herself. But still, the thing that annoys me more than (maybe ) the drugs is the marriage itself. Here come 4 newcomers into her village, *why* would she even think for a second that they knew her customs???? She does strike me as someone who gets her own way when she wants it: She liked Jack, he had been looking at her therefore he liked her therefore she would marry him! She's known him about 3 minutes at this point and not actually spoken to him!

I don't think it fit, either. I'm not sure that it runs counter to Sarai's thoughts, though. To me it seemed like part of the sappy, sentimental, self-pitying Jack that kind of threw me. I would have thought he'd be pacing around looking for a way out instead of helplessly waiting for Sam and the others to find a solution, writing notes to Sara, and learning the meaning of life from Kynthia! Of course, in the end, he did figure it out, but that was serendipitous.

Agreed!

[josiane]

Wow, I don't come in here for a couple of days because of general madness, and I'm three eps behind!

So...

Brief Candle

I agree with all of you, I really don't like this episode so much, the storyline's just icky, and I find it hard to get past that. But having said that...

Anyway. I do love the scene where the team finds Jack’s been seduced. Or is it rape? He was drugged, after all. And he doesn’t seem too thrilled about it the next day. Of course, then he finds out he’s acquired a doozy of an STD. No wonder he waited 100 days to have sex with an alien the next time the opportunity presented itself. Why is Sam the only one who’s unhappy with what he did? The other two are focusing on the circumstances, but Sam is focusing on Jack. What’s the source of her anger- that he jeopardized his own safety or that he didn’t live up to her moral standards? Throughout the scenes on the planet, she's really feeling a lot of anguish over his situation. It's not until she's in the safety of her lab and able to actually do something that she's able to find a more even keel.

I think probably for Sam it's a bit of both. It's not a great situation for Jack to have got himself into, to say the least, and just because a pretty girl smiled at him (and drugged him, but she doesn't know that at first). I think she is genuinely disappointed in him - we've seen in these first few episodes how Sam does have a bit of a case of hero worship where Jack's concerned, and I think his behaviour here shocks her a bit. Not so much because he's not living up to her moral standards, but because he's not living up to her image of him. At least until she realises about the drugging, of course, and then the concern comes back in full force.

Spoiler:

Was it really the right thing for Jack to have told the people their god was false and they were lab rats? After all, they were happy and healthy. I think he regretted it, but in the end was interfering in their culture the right thing to do? I definitely think that it wasn’t necessarily the best thing for the SGC to undo everything that had been done, at least so quickly. Would the Chosen Ones really have been so happy with all the new knowledge and the changes?

Spoiler:

And isn't this just the recurring theme of Stargate? To what extent should we interfere in other cultures, and allow other cultures to interfere with us?

I think the biggest objection that I have to this ep is Jack’s personality. He seems to undergo a lifetime of emotional changes, which I don’t quite buy since that would seem to be based on one’s life experiences. I think Kynthia and her wisdom is a little too superficial to have precipitated the kind of changes in his outlook that he seems to have had. Charlie's death and his subsequent divorce never made him open up- why would he now? And the little speech to her in the end seems so OOC. Contrast the Jack of CL with this Jack and the difference is really striking. I think he talks more about himself in this single episode than in the entire rest of the series. So, does he really start cherishing each and every day after this ep? I don’t think so, or he’d have seen this as a second chance, ditched the SGC and gone back to Sara. To be honest, Jack literally becomes a sentimental old man, and it doesn’t suit him.

I'd never thought of this, but I think you're exactly right here. There was always something else about this episode that bugged me, in addition to the ick of the Kynthia storyline, and I think this is it - old Jack just doesn't really feel like Jack. Great thoughts on all this and on the divorce with Sara after CL though everyone!

It turns out to be every bit as dangerous for Jack as it would have been for Carter, doesn't it? She would have been traumatized by Turghan's intentions in Emancipation, but it wouldn't have killed her. Kynthia very nearly killed Jack. I think that it's not just a male/female difference in perception, but also there are studies that show people like and trust beautiful people. And Daniel noted right off that they were all quite attractive. Still, they all should have known better.

I think this is true, but there is also the fact that if you take Hathor into consideration as well, rape is treated very lightly where the men are concerned in these early episodes.

The Nox

So- what about Sam leaving her position to go to Jack’s aid and then getting killed herself? Is that just a newbie mistake or does she know better and lets her feelings override her training? It’s interesting that she doesn’t like Daniel poking at her after she’s resurrected, but doesn’t mind turning around and doing the very same thing to Jack.

This is an interesting one, and I would tend to go with newbie mistake here, but even so, it's uncharacteristic of Sam, with her determination to be the perfect soldier. I think there's a certain amount of surprise here too, that the mission's gone fubar so badly and suddenly. But I like to compare it mentally with the exact same situation in Heroes

Sam seems to be getting more comfortable around Jack- when he immediately makes the bow & arrows she says, “What do you expect when you spend half of your life in special forces?” Later on, Jack attaches the tranquilizer dart. He’s a smart tactician- just like in Brief Candle where he figured out there must be a transmitter of some kind, he notices the spear can get tossed through Apophis’ shield, and when Sam has this long-winded exposition about kinetic energy and force fields, he just says “Yeah.” I think he gets what she’s saying most of the time, but only when he cares enough to actually listen.

Another thing I like comparing with later - when Sam says the exact same thing in Secrets after Jack throws his knife at Heru'ur's hand. I think it shows an increased comfort in their relationship when you compare Jack's reactions in both situations. Here he says 'yeah' as if it's a matter of course - he's already thought of that (but in a far less long-winded way). But in Secrets, he gives her this look as if to call her on her technobabble - they're a year on in their relationship and he's that much further on in perfecting his 'dumb colonel' act for effect.

Thor’s Hammer

I have a question.

Spoiler:

If the Egyptians rose up and drove Ra away 5000 years ago, why did Thor feel compelled to bring some humans here? They were safe on earth, weren’t they? Also, how were the Shavadai (Emancipation) brought to their planet? They were clearly put there by the goa’uld, but Ra had been long gone from earth by the time the Mongol civilization sprang up. There shouldn’t have been any post-pharaohnic peoples transported to the other planets, but there seem to be quite a few. Obviously, I’m missing something.

Hmm, I don't know. I can't remember what the explanation is that they give in Demons in S3, where they have a medieval civilisation and they talk about them being descended from a post-Egyptian civilsation. So it's something the writers are aware of, but ultimately I think it's just one of those inconsistencies.

It’s interesting how Sam immediately figures out Jack might not have been harmed and Gairwyn confirms that. In the last three episodes, it’s Sam who’s been concerned about his personal welfare first. Of course she is the medic, but I think she’s more attuned on a personal level, as well.

This fits with Sam's role more widely too - Daniel is more concerned about the societies they meet as a whole rather than their individual welfare, and Teal'c with the potential dangers, so it tends to be Sam who shows the individual/personal concern first. Not to take away from the shippy implications here, because I think they're there, but I think it says a lot about their personalities in general too.

Once again Daniel gets his hopes up- Kendra was a former host. He thinks Sha’re had a strong enough spirit to be able to fight, to control the goa’uld, but I do think what Kendra did was truly extraordinary. Was he overly optimistic about Sh’are’s chances? Sam definitely thought so- but I think she just wanted Kendra to stop with the spiritual mumbo-jumbo and find her teammates, dammit!

And this is one of the ways in which on occasion we see the similarities between Sam and Jack. We tend to put Sam with Daniel and Jack with Teal'c when it comes to action versus information, seeing her as a scientist primarily, but she does have this very strong soldier side genuinely. She likes to do, not just think. And when you add that to the scientist's natural impatience with anything mystical, you end up with Sam behaving like she does here and also in Spirits, where she's very Jack-like in her impatience with whatsisname (brain really not working tonight ) and the spirits.

[Aveo_amacus]

Wow, I don't come in here for a couple of days because of general madness, and I'm three eps behind!

So...

Brief Candle

I agree with all of you, I really don't like this episode so much, the storyline's just icky, and I find it hard to get past that. But having said that...

I think probably for Sam it's a bit of both. It's not a great situation for Jack to have got himself into, to say the least, and just because a pretty girl smiled at him (and drugged him, but she doesn't know that at first). I think she is genuinely disappointed in him - we've seen in these first few episodes how Sam does have a bit of a case of hero worship where Jack's concerned, and I think his behaviour here shocks her a bit. Not so much because he's not living up to her moral standards, but because he's not living up to her image of him. At least until she realises about the drugging, of course, and then the concern comes back in full force.

I think this is very true, there is definite hero worship in her interactions with him throughout the first season. The one thing that strikes me a bit with this scene is she's disappointed enough to really call him on it. her "what about you" is quite aggessive considering both who she is and her relationship with her CO. I think on a personal level she feels he's let her down.

The Nox

This is an interesting one, and I would tend to go with newbie mistake here, but even so, it's uncharacteristic of Sam, with her determination to be the perfect soldier. I think there's a certain amount of surprise here too, that the mission's gone fubar so badly and suddenly. But I like to compare it mentally with the exact same situation in Heroes

I agree it's uncharacteristic, I think it does come over a bit like a plot device really, it is just me but later in the ep when she says "it comes from spending half your life in special forces" but it always sounds like she's talking about both of them not just Jack, I mean she is making bows and arrows along with Jack here.
I don't know anything about women in Special Forces though.

Another thing I like comparing with later - when Sam says the exact same thing in Secrets after Jack throws his knife at Heru'ur's hand. I think it shows an increased comfort in their relationship when you compare Jack's reactions in both situations. Here he says 'yeah' as if it's a matter of course - he's already thought of that (but in a far less long-winded way). But in Secrets, he gives her this look as if to call her on her technobabble - they're a year on in their relationship and he's that much further on in perfecting his 'dumb colonel' act for effect.

oo that's interesting, I'd kinda half thought of it like, here he's still giving her a half hearted "yeah I'm listening to you" but by the time it gets to Secrets they're more familiar and he teases her scientist-side instead.

Thor’s Hammer

Hmm, I don't know. I can't remember what the explanation is that they give in Demons in S3, where they have a medieval civilisation and they talk about them being descended from a post-Egyptian civilsation. So it's something the writers are aware of, but ultimately I think it's just one of those inconsistencies.

I *think* in Demons Daniel mentions something about use of the second gate I think there's some mention of a glacier or crevasse or something ?????

This fits with Sam's role more widely too - Daniel is more concerned about the societies they meet as a whole rather than their individual welfare, and Teal'c with the potential dangers, so it tends to be Sam who shows the individual/personal concern first. Not to take away from the shippy implications here, because I think they're there, but I think it says a lot about their personalities in general too.

And this is one of the ways in which on occasion we see the similarities between Sam and Jack. We tend to put Sam with Daniel and Jack with Teal'c when it comes to action versus information, seeing her as a scientist primarily, but she does have this very strong soldier side genuinely. She likes to do, not just think. And when you add that to the scientist's natural impatience with anything mystical, you end up with Sam behaving like she does here and also in Spirits, where she's very Jack-like in her impatience with whatsisname (brain really not working tonight ) and the spirits.

Tonane
Yeah well said Twin, we do sometimes forget that Sam's a soldier (perhaps because we see the gaff in the nox)
She does like to do, either do something sciencey or just try to fix something. How many times does Jack turn to her and tell her to "fix it". Not to mention her spare time hobby is fixing cars and motorcycles.
I'm going to stretch the premise a bit (read: a lot) here especially as we don't know anything about Carter's religion apart from it says Roman Catholic on her dogtags and she doesn't practise; but if we take the Fanon premise that it was her mother who was religious and that ended with her mother's death then could her impatience with the mystical have something to do with that????
Yeah ok just read that it sounds like rubbish!

[VSS]

Yeah I'm not fond of her either, but with regarding the drugs I do think that ignorance could be a strong defense. The Chosen were clearly not educated - they don't know what writing is. I'm not sure that Kynthia *knew* it was drugged - she wouldn't have taken the cake herself. But still, the thing that annoys me more than (maybe ) the drugs is the marriage itself. Here come 4 newcomers into her village, *why* would she even think for a second that they knew her customs???? She does strike me as someone who gets her own way when she wants it: She liked Jack, he had been looking at her therefore he liked her therefore she would marry him! She's known him about 3 minutes at this point and not actually spoken to him!

I guess their behavior is quite naive, almost child-like. They've never faced any adversity, not even illness. BTW, what happens to them at 100 days- even if they matured quickly, they should eventually age, should they not? Or do they just pull a Logan's Run and walk out into the sea when they turn 30? So yes, she just expects everything to go her way, like a little kid would.

Which is why the wisdom she spouts later also seems so cliched. Uneducated, untested, naive- and wise. Huh? Those things just don't go together.

Wow, I don't come in here for a couple of days because of general madness, and I'm three eps behind!

We wanted to get through this before the next movie, but I'm having trouble keeping up, too!

<snip> Not so much because he's not living up to her moral standards, but because he's not living up to her image of him. At least until she realises about the drugging, of course, and then the concern comes back in full force.

Oh, I like the way you put this!

Spoiler:

And isn't this just the recurring theme of Stargate? To what extent should we interfere in other cultures, and allow other cultures to interfere with us?

Aaaghh! You're supposed to give me the answers! To what extent should we interfere?

The Nox

This is an interesting one, and I would tend to go with newbie mistake here, but even so, it's uncharacteristic of Sam, with her determination to be the perfect soldier. I think there's a certain amount of surprise here too, that the mission's gone fubar so badly and suddenly. But I like to compare it mentally with the exact same situation in Heroes

It's a very similar situation, no doubt. I think it's a little different in Heroes though- she's more mature then, and a seasoned soldier. Here, it's more surprise and panic, in Heroes it's pure anguish at seeing the man she loves get taken down in front of her eyes- it wouldn't have mattered if she would have thought it through. *sob*.

Another thing I like comparing with later - when Sam says the exact same thing in Secrets after Jack throws his knife at Heru'ur's hand. I think it shows an increased comfort in their relationship when you compare Jack's reactions in both situations. Here he says 'yeah' as if it's a matter of course - he's already thought of that (but in a far less long-winded way). But in Secrets, he gives her this look as if to call her on her technobabble - they're a year on in their relationship and he's that much further on in perfecting his 'dumb colonel' act for effect.

I'm not remembering that scene- that sounds like an excellent parallel . So I'm going to make a little note of that when we get to that ep!

I haven't watched these eps nearly as many times as some, that's why I'm really loving this rewatch and all the comments.

Spoiler:

Hmm, I don't know. I can't remember what the explanation is that they give in Demons in S3, where they have a medieval civilisation and they talk about them being descended from a post-Egyptian civilsation. So it's something the writers are aware of, but ultimately I think it's just one of those inconsistencies.

Spoiler:

NOOOOOO! I hate inconsistencies. But I'm sure you're right.

This fits with Sam's role more widely too - Daniel is more concerned about the societies they meet as a whole rather than their individual welfare, and Teal'c with the potential dangers, so it tends to be Sam who shows the individual/personal concern first. Not to take away from the shippy implications here, because I think they're there, but I think it says a lot about their personalities in general too.

I don't think this is really all that shippy, either. You've touched on a nice point here, and I agree wholeheartedly. Not only do they have different roles in dealing with external concerns, they have different ways of handling the things that affect the team internally. Different ways of taking care of each other.

And this is one of the ways in which on occasion we see the similarities between Sam and Jack. We tend to put Sam with Daniel and Jack with Teal'c when it comes to action versus information, seeing her as a scientist primarily, but she does have this very strong soldier side genuinely. She likes to do, not just think.

I agree completely. It's what type of a scientist she is- she's into the hard sciences. Facts, figures, quantification, results. Daniel is a social scientist, and all of those things are harder to come by directly. So, while they share a general curiosity and love of learning, not only does her military training align her thinking with Jack's, the type of utterly rational science she studies does, too. Sometimes even more than Jack as we see quite often when he has to remind her to think about the individual people in volved, as in A Matter of Time when the men are trapped by the black hole.

[josiane]

Aaaghh! You're supposed to give me the answers! To what extent should we interfere?

Sorry! But maybe here we're different - I love the unanswered and unanswerable I think really though there are certain questions that the whole of Stargate is exploring, examining from all angles, and not necessarily coming to any hard and fast conclusions. And this is a big one.

It's a very similar situation, no doubt. I think it's a little different in Heroes though- she's more mature then, and a seasoned soldier. Here, it's more surprise and panic, in Heroes it's pure anguish at seeing the man she loves get taken down in front of her eyes- it wouldn't have mattered if she would have thought it through. *sob*.

Oh yes, absolutely.

I'm not remembering that scene- that sounds like an excellent parallel . So I'm going to make a little note of that when we get to that ep!

It is, and it's one of those wonderfully subtle parallels that Stargate excels at. It doesn't matter one bit whether you notice it or not, but there's a satisfaction in so doing, and it works. It gave me a huge grin when I realised

I agree completely. It's what type of a scientist she is- she's into the hard sciences. Facts, figures, quantification, results. Daniel is a social scientist, and all of those things are harder to come by directly. So, while they share a general curiosity and love of learning, not only does her military training align her thinking with Jack's, the type of utterly rational science she studies does, too. Sometimes even more than Jack as we see quite often when he has to remind her to think about the individual people in volved, as in A Matter of Time when the men are trapped by the black hole.

Very nicely put, and very true

[Toomi]

So I'm on my 3rd watch of this episode and I still can't get into it. I just don't like this episode.....

Brief Candle

Favorite Scene: When Jack collapses on the second day and Sam catches him. She's really upset with what's going on, and really starting to care about him as a person.

Favorite Quote: Have an apple. What could happen?

Same....

Even having babies is a snap for these people. But it’s not until the next day that the team realizes something is up when the baby is now a toddler. That should have been their first clue to figure out what was going on before they stayed any longer. And really, after touching that blue crystal in the last ep, why would Jack eat the cake? Because he has a fan? I think so. He’s a sucker for a pretty woman. After what happened in Emancipation, you’d think that they’d be a little bit more careful about letting one of the team become separated from the rest.

I don't know I'd say because he has a fan.... Perhaps it's just me hoping that he wouldn't just eat something strange coz a pretty woman flirted with him. I like to think that he ate it to try and not offend the locals?

Anyway. I do love the scene where the team finds Jack’s been seduced. Or is it rape? He was drugged, after all. And he doesn’t seem too thrilled about it the next day. Of course, then he finds out he’s acquired a doozy of an STD. No wonder he waited 100 days to have sex with an alien the next time the opportunity presented itself. Why is Sam the only one who’s unhappy with what he did? The other two are focusing on the circumstances, but Sam is focusing on Jack. What’s the source of her anger- that he jeopardized his own safety or that he didn’t live up to her moral standards? Throughout the scenes on the planet, she's really feeling a lot of anguish over his situation. It's not until she's in the safety of her lab and able to actually do something that she's able to find a more even keel.

I always thought it was rape, he was drugged and taken advantage of. If that happened to a woman at a bar, it would be rape.... However, part of my rational mind states that he was not aware of their culture, and Kynthia wasn't aware that he had no idea what he was agreeing to when he ate the cake. Perhaps that's the normal ritual for their culture?

I think Sam is focusing on Jack as he's someone on her team and it looks like he's dying. In her years in the Air Force how was it for her? Was she in a team of 4 working in close situations, fighting, working etc? Despite some disrespect/distrust (?) from Jack at the beginning I think at this point they're definatly closer as a team and she's losing someone who is on that team. Part of me thinks she's attached herself pretty strongly to this team, perhaps not the people yet, as it's her perfect job in her mind. She's acknowledged on teh base as being a scientist and a soldier and no one questions it. She's also been through some tough situations (Hansen) and Jack was there to help her deal with it in his way. I think for her it's mostly an emotional response and it isn't until she gets into a lab and can actually do something that her emotional response subsides and she plunges into work. We see this reaction from her in 100 Days.

[QUOTE=VSS;10073031]

Spoiler:

Was it really the right thing for Jack to have told the people their god was false and they were lab rats? After all, they were happy and healthy. I think he regretted it, but in the end was interfering in their culture the right thing to do? I definitely think that it wasn’t necessarily the best thing for the SGC to undo everything that had been done, at least so quickly. Would the Chosen Ones really have been so happy with all the new knowledge and the changes?

I like the way Teal’c shows his usefulness in deciphering the goa’uld writing. Here’s where we finally see that he’s not only a warrior but has insight that will really help in the fight against the goa’uld. I also love Daniel’s outburst in the briefing room. Of course, General Hammond is absolutely right. And finally, I really like the moments when Janet and Sam work together on the nanites. The deteriorating gloves remind me of The Andromeda Strain. So this is a nice team episode as well.

[quote]

I don't know if it was the thing to do, to tell them about being an experiment... and it certainly wasn't the right way to tell them. But at some point I think the truth would've come out.

Agreed on the team effort of everyone. As always it's great to see Janet there

I think the biggest objection that I have to this ep is Jack’s personality. He seems to undergo a lifetime of emotional changes, which I don’t quite buy since that would seem to be based on one’s life experiences. I think Kynthia and her wisdom is a little too superficial to have precipitated the kind of changes in his outlook that he seems to have had. Charlie's death and his subsequent divorce never made him open up- why would he now? And the little speech to her in the end seems so OOC. Contrast the Jack of CL with this Jack and the difference is really striking. I think he talks more about himself in this single episode than in the entire rest of the series. So, does he really start cherishing each and every day after this ep? I don’t think so, or he’d have seen this as a second chance, ditched the SGC and gone back to Sara. To be honest, Jack literally becomes a sentimental old man, and it doesn’t suit him.

We were wondering what happened with Sara. Now he refers to her as his ex-wife for the first time- so the events of CL finally sealed the fate of that relationship. I had thought they were already divorced by the start of the series, but now I don’t think so. And I’m not sure I like that. Does that change anyone else’s perception of the shippy moments we’ve seen over the first few months of the team’s existence?

Implications for Sam and Jack: I have no idea, because Jack seems so OOC. Any one else have thoughts on this?

I like the job they did with OldJack's makeup... other than that I don't like oldJack. He seems to give up too quickly, not what we know of him (or have seen so far.) I think this is why I don't like this ep, Jack just isn't right.

I think that the divorce happened before the series started. I think that the events of cold Lazarus just makes it final for both Jack and Sara and they've realised that and start moving on.

[Toomi]

So I just lost power at my house I'm blaming the snow. If it doesn't come on soon I'm just going to head to bed, but I'm not able to finish watching tonights episodes... My laptop just doesn' thave enough juice to play the Nox (I was watching Thor's Hammer... )

The Nox

Favorite Quote: The very young often do not do what they are told. (I use this quote at home).
Favorite Scene: When Nefrayu puts his hand on Sam’s shoulder and adoringly says “Carter,” Jack sees the smile on her face and says “No, you can’t keep him.” This scene is part of the banner:

That scene is soooo cute. And so is Nefrayu.

So- what about Sam leaving her position to go to Jack’s aid and then getting killed herself? Is that just a newbie mistake or does she know better and lets her feelings override her training? It’s interesting that she doesn’t like Daniel poking at her after she’s resurrected, but doesn’t mind turning around and doing the very same thing to Jack.

I don't know.... Honestly, I don't want to say rookie mistake. While Sam may not have much ground fighting experience before joining SG-1 I would assume that it would've been drilled into her during her initial training not to do that... Having said that, I don't think that they're at that point yet where Sam would go to Jack's aid when there's still a fight going on and she's exposing herself to being killed.

Sam seems to be getting more comfortable around Jack- when he immediately makes the bow & arrows she says, “What do you expect when you spend half of your life in special forces?” Later on, Jack attaches the tranquilizer dart. He’s a smart tactician- just like in Brief Candle where he figured out there must be a transmitter of some kind, he notices the spear can get tossed through Apophis’ shield, and when Sam has this long-winded exposition about kinetic energy and force fields, he just says “Yeah.” I think he gets what she’s saying most of the time, but only when he cares enough to actually listen.

Is it part of canon that Jack has a degree???? I can't remember. But he's a smart man. I think he just dumbs himself down to not show it. I think he gets most of what Sam is talking about, or at least follows it. I don't know if he's just trying to get a rise out of her or other scientists that like to babble at him, or if he just want's to appear that he isn't understanding so he can avoid having conversations with scientists...

I have a question.

Spoiler:

If the Egyptians rose up and drove Ra away 5000 years ago, why did Thor feel compelled to bring some humans here? They were safe on earth, weren’t they? Also, how were the Shavadai (Emancipation) brought to their planet? They were clearly put there by the goa’uld, but Ra had been long gone from earth by the time the Mongol civilization sprang up. There shouldn’t have been any post-pharaohnic peoples transported to the other planets, but there seem to be quite a few. Obviously, I’m missing something.

Spoiler:

I can only guess that it was a goof created from TPTB who wanted different cultures other than Egyptian out there. Later we see a medieval culture ( I can't remember the name of the ep) and later time periods (thinking well into season 9 and 10, with Cam fighting the knight... That's definatly post Egyptian)

I really love this ep for the two strong female guest characters, Gairwyn and Kendra. Kathryn Powers wrote this. Whatever happened to her? Would having female writers around have improved the series?

I don't know about improved... I'm happy with what we got generally, but I wish they would've had a female writer. I think that Sam would've been written quite differently, especially with Pete. Having a female writer for the later seasons (9 and 10) I think would've made more of a difference with Vala's character. While Sam's character starts off a little inconsistent I think that once her characterisations became a little more comfortable for the writers we had, they really did a good job with her. Having a female writer would've played more for the ship I think. Just with dealing with the realtionship on screen and I think Jack's character may have been a little different too.

Ultimately, the choice has to be made between Teal’c’s life and a possible chance at being able to save Sha’re and Skaara. I must say, I think Jack was unnecessarily cruel in making Daniel be the one who knocks out the goa’uld killing device. Why does he do that? To toughen Daniel up or to drive home the point that the team has to come first? Daniel isn’t a military man and I found this to be a disturbing thing for Jack to make him do. It’s like a gang initiation where someone is forced to do something very unsavory just to prove his allegiance.

I think he was perhaps testing Daniel. Would Daniel do what was necessary for the team? They're still a fairly new team at this point and from what we've seen haven't seen as much fighting as they will. The fight in the Nox was probably the most close quarter combat we've seen. (excluding COTG but Daniel didn't have a weapon then) Jack perhaps needs to know that if it came down to it, would Daniel be someone he could rely on in a fight, especially if Sha're was around. It is a very real possibility for him. They're looking for her, and if they come across her, she will try to kill them. There will be fighting. Will Daniel be able to work with his team and fight back? Or will he go to Sha're?

Another possibility, but this may be a stretch, but if Daniel is the one to fire at Thor's Hammer and destroy it he can't blame Jack for that later. If Jack had just taken the shot and destroyed it, there could be issues down the road with Daniel blaming Jack, becoming resentful, because it's gone. Daniel destroyed it, and he's to blame so to speak. Yes he can say Jack asked him to, but did Jack force him to? He could've said no.

Implications for Sam and Jack: Both eps are team eps and are helping to establish what it is that SG-1 and the SGC are doing. I think these eps show that the team is becomming a team. They're working well togther, they're showing more concern for each other but I don't think that there's much really shippy about the eps.

RL

Spoiler:

I have to head to another city for a specialists appt for my stupid wrist. I won't be online until Monday at about 5pm MST when I'll post the start of the next discussions. I shouldn't be later than that unless the snow gets too crazy. Have a great weekend all

[Aveo_amacus]

Is it part of canon that Jack has a degree???? I can't remember. But he's a smart man. I think he just dumbs himself down to not show it. I think he gets most of what Sam is talking about, or at least follows it. I don't know if he's just trying to get a rise out of her or other scientists that like to babble at him, or if he just want's to appear that he isn't understanding so he can avoid having conversations with scientists...

I don't think it's "canon" as much as a requirement for being an Officer

[Petra]

I'm behind and I don't have time/strenght to do multiply quotes, so please bear with me.

[COLOR="Blue"]I don't know.... Honestly, I don't want to say rookie mistake. While Sam may not have much ground fighting experience before joining SG-1 I would assume that it would've been drilled into her during her initial training not to do that... Having said that, I don't think that they're at that point yet where Sam would go to Jack's aid when there's still a fight going on and she's exposing herself to being killed.

I guess I can rationalise it as a rookie mistake. Sam didn't have much to do with ground combat before joining SG-1 after all. But I think it was just a plot device to get them all killed in the same ambush.

Is it part of canon that Jack has a degree???? I can't remember. But he's a smart man. I think he just dumbs himself down to not show it. I think he gets most of what Sam is talking about, or at least follows it. I don't know if he's just trying to get a rise out of her or other scientists that like to babble at him, or if he just want's to appear that he isn't understanding so he can avoid having conversations with scientists...

I agree. And his having a degree is part of the canon in the sense that in reality you have to have at least Master's degree to be promoted to a Colonel.

THOR'S HAMMER

[COLOR="blue"]I think he was perhaps testing Daniel. Would Daniel do what was necessary for the team? They're still a fairly new team at this point and from what we've seen haven't seen as much fighting as they will. The fight in the Nox was probably the most close quarter combat we've seen. (excluding COTG but Daniel didn't have a weapon then) Jack perhaps needs to know that if it came down to it, would Daniel be someone he could rely on in a fight, especially if Sha're was around. It is a very real possibility for him. They're looking for her, and if they come across her, she will try to kill them. There will be fighting. Will Daniel be able to work with his team and fight back? Or will he go to Sha're?

I think it was a very wise decision command-wise. Firstly, it drills home to Daniel that the team always comes first. I do believe that if Daniel didn't do it Jack would have him transfered off the team, simply because the there would be no trust. They have to know they have each other's back in every situation. I think at first Jack was going a little easy on Daniel, but now he reached a point when he had to make sure Daniel is able to be a team player and stick for every member of his team. Given that Teal'c's responsible for Sha're's kidnapping and there wasn't much interaction between them till this point, this scene speaks volumes.

And a few things about previous topics of discussions.

There were women on the writing team up to season 6, they disappeared completely in season 7. And I think it made a difference. Female writers dealt with mythology (Asgard), social commentaries (Learning Curve) and relationships (Divide and Conquer) and i think the show was better with them onboard.

About Brief Candle:

You can put me with those who aren't fans of the episode. I don't actively dislike it, I just don't care much about it.

I also think Kynthia comes off as the worst of Jack's "love interests" (I like both Laira and Kerry; heck, I even like Freya ), but she isn't bad.

Yeah, the dance scene wasn't terribly original, but the fact is, it is possible there are some cultures in which wedding looks like this.

I also don't get why people are so crossed with both Jack and Kynthia for spening the night together. Firstly, as everybody said, Jack was drugged, pretty badly it seems. Hard to blame him over something he didn't have any control over. As for him eating it, I think he took his clue from Daniel. In the movie military guys weren't keen on the idea of eating alien food and Daniel said it might seem offensive to their hosts. I think this is what Jack thinks here: we've found this little paradise, why make trouble refusing a piece of cake? I also think Daniel dropped a ball here, cos as an anthropologist he should have mentioned the possibility of marriage.

Secondly, we don't know what the original purpose of the drugs was. Maybe in their culture it was aphrodisiac, or something like Viagra, or something like this, and the memory/control loss was a side effect. maybe it didn't work this way on the Argosians themselves, their physiology was a bit different..

As for Jack giving up, it's a recurring theme. He does the same thing in 100 days and I think it's quite in character for him (the giving up part, not the old senile man routine- that as annoying) - the legacy of the Special Forces and black ops. I'll probably say more when we get to 100 days.

[VSS]

I don't know about improved... I'm happy with what we got generally, but I wish they would've had a female writer. I think that Sam would've been written quite differently, especially with Pete. Having a female writer for the later seasons (9 and 10) I think would've made more of a difference with Vala's character.

I've heard other people point that out as well, and I agree. While I agree that having Pete around allowed Sam to show her feminine side, the writers equated feminine with being weak. Kendra and Gairwyn were not weak.

They're looking for her, and if they come across her, she will try to kill them. There will be fighting. Will Daniel be able to work with his team and fight back? Or will he go to Sha're?

Oh! I never thought of it like that- but you're right. Which actually makes this scene directly analogous with Entity, in a way.

I don't think it's "canon" as much as a requirement for being an Officer

YEs, and as col aga said, Jack would have had a master's degree. Evidently there was a framed degree in engineering in his office in S8. Someone saw it on a set tour.

THOR'S HAMMER
I think it was a very wise decision command-wise. Firstly, it drills home to Daniel that the team always comes first. I do believe that if Daniel didn't do it Jack would have him transfered off the team, simply because the there would be no trust. They have to know they have each other's back in every situation. I think at first Jack was going a little easy on Daniel, but now he reached a point when he had to make sure Daniel is able to be a team player and stick for every member of his team. Given that Teal'c's responsible for Sha're's kidnapping and there wasn't much interaction between them till this point, this scene speaks volumes.

Okay, you guys have me convinced. But boy, it seems harsh. ALthough, it's a fact in a combat unit that tough choices have to be made and everyone has to be prepared for it. I'm such a wimp. I wouldn't have lasted a single day in officer's training.

There were women on the writing team up to season 6, they disappeared completely in season 7. And I think it made a difference. Female writers dealt with mythology (Asgard), social commentaries (Learning Curve) and relationships (Divide and Conquer) and i think the show was better with them onboard.

That is an excellent point. ALthough, I went back and checked- and found that Kathryn Powers also wrote Brief Candle! It could have been a mixed blessing.

I also don't get why people are so crossed with both Jack and Kynthia for spening the night together. Firstly, as everybody said, Jack was drugged, pretty badly it seems.

I don't think anyone's miffed at Jack. He was, as you pointed out, drugged.

Hard to blame him over something he didn't have any control over. As for him eating it, I think he took his clue from Daniel. In the movie military guys weren't keen on the idea of eating alien food and Daniel said it might seem offensive to their hosts. I think this is what Jack thinks here: we've found this little paradise, why make trouble refusing a piece of cake? I also think Daniel dropped a ball here, cos as an anthropologist he should have mentioned the possibility of marriage.

Yes, perhaps it wasn't Kynthia's fault so much as Daniel's. Although it was Jack who said "Have an apple. What could happen?" Either one of them should have had the sense to inquire what eating the cake meant- especially when Kynthia said it was only for Jack. Daniel actually teased him over that, when it should have set off alarm bells. I think both of them trusted these sweet, lovely people without actually having any real reason to do so.

Secondly, we don't know what the original purpose of the drugs was. Maybe in their culture it was aphrodisiac, or something like Viagra, or something like this, and the memory/control loss was a side effect. maybe it didn't work this way on the Argosians themselves, their physiology was a bit different..

Oh, good point. They might not have even felt it at all. They might not have any use for drugs at all since they're in perfect health.

As for Jack giving up, it's a recurring theme. He does the same thing in 100 days and I think it's quite in character for him (the giving up part, not the old senile man routine- that as annoying) - the legacy of the Special Forces and black ops. I'll probably say more when we get to 100 days.

That may be true. I eagerly await the 100 Days discussion! (BTW think it means anything that Kynthia specifically said that women were given 100 days of bliss?) I guess the part that really bugs me about his personality change is that he becomes so emotional. I really can't imagine Jack O'Neill saying this:

O'NEILL: Sweet Kynthia, I've learned so much from you. I'll treasure every day of my life, because of you.

Oh, please.

[Aveo_amacus]

That may be true. I eagerly await the 100 Days discussion! (BTW think it means anything that Kynthia specifically said that women were given 100 days of bliss?) I guess the part that really bugs me about his personality change is that he becomes so emotional. I really can't imagine Jack O'Neill saying this:

O'NEILL: Sweet Kynthia, I've learned so much from you. I'll treasure every day of my life, because of you.

Oh, please.

totally with you

On the women given 100 blissful days I didn't take it to mean anything, Alekos said the samething about men to Daniel


On a completely different note, in the scene where they are discussing the ages of the Chosen is it just me or does Carter seem quite happy with the baby, I mean in a not scared of him, happy to hold his food, sort of way; there are quite a few instances in fandom where Sam is protrayed very baby-shy, any thoughts??