Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[majorsal]

Nah, I didn't think Shanahan was important to the story but rather they added him in on AT's insistence. But well, what's done is done (to my unhappiness unfortunately). I personally loved the deliberate vagueness of Jack's answer, because I thought it more dignified than what Sam was doing at that moment.

for me, pete and the storyline was a joke, and a poorly told one at that. it wasn't *needed* to me, to bring any kind of resolve to sam's (and jack's) love life.

but the vague answer...

if you (general you) were in love with someone, but had had a moment of doubt and moved on to try your life with someone else... but you realized you'd made a mistake... but you didn't want to hurt the guy you were with... and you didn't know if the guy you were in love with still had those feelings for you... you were trapped... you were in non-action limbo... what you wanted was the man that you loved to tell you he loved you too...

maybe.

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

eeh? I like Ben Browder (esp. in Farscape) but I don't think he and AT have that kind of chemistry, nor does Sam and Cam. They are friends and colleagues only. Just my opinion.

I don't think Sam would stay alone if Jack died, but there was no one on the show who I like for her, so it would be a whole new guy who is tall (no short potatoes) and maybe not know about the Stargate but would respect her and the word "classified".

yeah I don't think Daniel or Teal'c would qualify either. I mean Daniel would probably feel a little guilty at marrying or even being in a relationship with sam.

[fems]

Nah, I didn't think Shanahan was important to the story but rather they added him in on AT's insistence. But well, what's done is done (to my unhappiness unfortunately). I personally loved the deliberate vagueness of Jack's answer, because I thought it more dignified than what Sam was doing at that moment.

I can see why AT wanted a semi-normal relationship for her character, since so far all we had for her was a crazy ex-fiance who thought he was a god, some infatuated and somewhat creepy aliens and her unresolved feelings for her CO. At least we knew Jack had been capable of a normal relationship, Daniel had been married (and gotten involved with various alien women since) too and Teal'c was 'divorced' and had a new relationship as well.

I also liked Jack's vagueness, especially since it can be interpreted in so many ways in fanfics and that gives us some great angsty stuff!

However, I still stand by my opinion that the choice to accept/reject the proposal was Sam's and hers alone: she either wanted to marry the guy or she didn't. It's not rocket science and Jack's (former or current) feelings for her shouldn't influence the fact that she either wanted to spend the rest of her life with another man or not. Asking Jack at that moment, under those circumstances, and with the intention of having him talk her out of it was simply wrong and unfair to him, her boyfriend and even Sam herself.

[Ikorni]

I can see why AT wanted a semi-normal relationship for her character, since so far all we had for her was a crazy ex-fiance who thought he was a god, some infatuated and somewhat creepy aliens and her unresolved feelings for her CO. At least we knew Jack had been capable of a normal relationship, Daniel had been married (and gotten involved with various alien women since) too and Teal'c was 'divorced' and had a new relationship as well.

I also liked Jack's vagueness, especially since it can be interpreted in so many ways in fanfics and that gives us some great angsty stuff!

However, I still stand by my opinion that the choice to accept/reject the proposal was Sam's and hers alone: she either wanted to marry the guy or she didn't. It's not rocket science and Jack's (former or current) feelings for her shouldn't influence the fact that she either wanted to spend the rest of her life with another man or not. Asking Jack at that moment, under those circumstances, and with the intention of having him talk her out of it was simply wrong and unfair to him, her boyfriend and even Sam herself.

I certainly can understand the need for Sam wanting a relationship of sorts, but it was handled so badly that it turned me off Shanahan (and that whole attempt at fixing her up with someone) completely and that I'd sooner not even have that plotline inserted. If it were done more tastefully, I'd definitely be more open to it.

[fems]

I certainly can understand the need for Sam wanting a relationship of sorts, but it was handled so badly that it turned me off Shanahan (and that whole attempt at fixing her up with someone) completely and that I'd sooner not even have that plotline inserted. If it were done more tastefully, I'd definitely be more open to it.

Oh yeah, I totally agree about how badly it was handled. I was merely pointing out that I understood AT's request about her character getting a boyfriend. It's just too bad the writers/PTB had to screw it up. Not just with dragging it out to an engagement in spite of what (almost) happened between Sam and Jack in Lost City etc, but the snooping, stalking and background checking too! I was disappointed in that they (and AT herself too!) apparently thought it was okay for him to do that because he was a cop and knew Sam wasn't telling him the truth, but in my opinion he should have known and understood the meaning of classified. Instead, he threw a temper tantrum like a spoiled child, called in a favor for a background check on Sam right after sleeping together for the first time and then he went on to follow her to a stakeout (regardless of his FBI pal's warning) and to top it all off, everyone thought that was just fine and because he got shot (and endangered everyone else on the mission plus Osiris getting away) they read him in on the Program! That was just... damn. I can't help but wonder who came up with that idea and what he/she had been on at the time!

The part about him getting clearance to know about the SGC despite only being with Sam for less than a month just astounded me. Totally ruined any credibility TPTB had in regards to how they handled the SGC and the USAF and I was surprised the AF advisers and RDA as exec producer (since he was known and awarded for how well he portrayed the AF in the show) went along with it. I can only blame it on them thinking, at the time, that it was going to be their last season and Pete would get dumped for Jack anyway by the time of the finale (and maybe even dies in Anubis' attack, so no worries about the clearance part )...

[Ikorni]

Oh yeah, I totally agree about how badly it was handled. I was merely pointing out that I understood AT's request about her character getting a boyfriend. It's just too bad the writers/PTB had to screw it up. Not just with dragging it out to an engagement in spite of what (almost) happened between Sam and Jack in Lost City etc, but the snooping, stalking and background checking too! I was disappointed in that they (and AT herself too!) apparently thought it was okay for him to do that because he was a cop and knew Sam wasn't telling him the truth, but in my opinion he should have known and understood the meaning of classified. Instead, he threw a temper tantrum like a spoiled child, called in a favor for a background check on Sam right after sleeping together for the first time and then he went on to follow her to a stakeout (regardless of his FBI pal's warning) and to top it all off, everyone thought that was just fine and because he got shot (and endangered everyone else on the mission plus Osiris getting away) they read him in on the Program! That was just... damn. I can't help but wonder who came up with that idea and what he/she had been on at the time!

The part about him getting clearance to know about the SGC despite only being with Sam for less than a month just astounded me. Totally ruined any credibility TPTB had in regards to how they handled the SGC and the USAF and I was surprised the AF advisers and RDA as exec producer (since he was known and awarded for how well he portrayed the AF in the show) went along with it. I can only blame it on them thinking, at the time, that it was going to be their last season and Pete would get dumped for Jack anyway by the time of the finale (and maybe even dies in Anubis' attack, so no worries about the clearance part )...

Yep. I personally thought it also reflected badly on Sam as well (for me at least) how she handled things with him. But AT loved the plotline so...

Even if they thought it were to be the last season, giving him clearance sounded like an easy, unbelievable cop-out (pun fully intended) which looked like a reward for his stalking and interference in their stakeout. That went straight into unrealistic for me.

[fems]

Yep. I personally thought it also reflected badly on Sam as well (for me at least) how she handled things with him. But AT loved the plotline so...

Even if they thought it were to be the last season, giving him clearance sounded like an easy, unbelievable cop-out (pun fully intended) which looked like a reward for his stalking and interference in their stakeout. That went straight into unrealistic for me.

Yeah, but I wouldn't have been surprised if they had included/hinted at Disclosure after Lost City, either somewhere in the episode or in a movie (instead of AoT or even Continuum). That way it wouldn't have been that bad and they could have said Pete was a trial run, to see how a professional detective wary of all things secret would handle it prior to letting everyone in the world know.

I also agree about Sam but hey, there's got to be something she's not good at, right? She obviously has a bad track record with men so we really shouldn't be too surprised she thought his actions weren't okay when we know Jonas Hanson was probably a bit of a controlling freak when they were together/engaged... I guess we should be grateful she even thought (like any sane person) that Narim's voice thingy in his house was creepy and asked him to turn it off.

[AmberLM]

I wonder if Sam's (clearly frustrated) blurting of "What about you?!" And the subsequent wince was her knee-jerk reaction to Jack inadvertently forcing her to tell him about the engagement? I mean, we all know Jack doesn't like to talk at the best of times and so IMO the only reason why she did what she did was a split-second "oh crap, it's now of never" so she just went for it and then instantly regretted it. The look on face to me says "I know I've just done something reprehensible but I need an answer and I can't back out now".

[XFchemist]

No offense. I don't want to get modded but I always wondered if Pete was played by another actor (not a DeLuise) he would last for so long...

[SaraBahama]

Uh...I have a LOT to catch up on:

I'll bet Jack was the kind of boy who could barely sit still and not fidget long enough in church. Probably drove his (grand)parents and other church-goers crazy!

fems: I laughed SO HARD at this! I could just see this in my head and it was totally in-character.

A lot of guys I know think she's gay because she has very short hair, lives in combat boots and is a bit of a feminist. She's a strong, confident woman who doesn't need a man to protect her - of course she's a lesbian

It's stereotyping by looks, this notion that a butch looking woman in masculine clothes and a short hair cut is lesbian.

...and just when I thought stereotyping was dead because it is not PC!!

People are people...with all their assorted behaviors, personal tics, and mannerisms. I could continue, but it turns into a bit of a rant...

That's thanks to AT who risked her job so that the character would be the soldier and the scientist she was meant to be.

I am SO glad she did -we ended up with a deeper, more believable character, and we're enriched because of it. She created something memorable; something lasting.

Joe Faxon (the one from "2001") is the only one I can see her with other than Jack.

the only guy i could see sam with, and this would have to be ONLY if jack were dead...cameron mitchell

I do think BB has a appealing appearance (nothing like RDA, mind you), but as far as how AT and BB played the characters of Sam and Cam, I can't see it. I always had a head canon of the two of them @ the AFA together, and having that founding friendship (the brother/sister type of relationship that hedwig mentioned). I'm not a Mitchell detractor, and I just don't see him as completely incompetent and dismiss him as I have seen others do, but I just don't see the characters being able to progress past their friendship into a romantic relationship (no matter how pretty BB is...lol).

hey, it's all in tastes. you think martouf is a hot dude, don't you?

He is a pretty, pretty man.

I don't blame Jack for his reaction; it's not like Sam sleeping with another guy and actually considering said guy's proposal screams how much she loves Jack. If Jack had told her not to go through with it then they probably would never get out of their subordinate/superior relationship! He had no right to tell her what to do and Sam, really, had no right to ask it of him. As a friend, informing him her guy had just proposed and she was doubting a bit because of her job etc, okay but not as the guy who probably loves you more than anything and has been standing aside for a few months now while you're getting cozy with some loser totally unworthy of you. Besides, Jack is not one to talk about his feelings easily so why would he go out on a limb here and confess his feelings when she might just nod, thank him for his honesty and still go ahead and marry the cop! It's not like Jack had something to offer her other than a 'someday', like it had been for the past few years...

I've always interpreted this scene in that light (bolded).

I do know that there will never be a unanimous verdict on the subtle messages contained in this scene, and that is ok, because as fems said:

I also liked Jack's vagueness, especially since it can be interpreted in so many ways in fanfics and that gives us some great angsty stuff!

I just never interpreted Sam's "what about you?" as an accusation ("what do I do about you...about us?"). IMO Sam by this point has given up on the possibility of them, and I don't think she has bitterness about it.

...Neither of them want to jeopardize Earth by removing themselves from the program (a bit of a egotistical idea if you take it too far), and there is no way the regulations would let them pursue a romantic relationship, because it could "undermine good order and discipline"; both of them are too honorable to flaunt the rules and carry on a secret liaison (a fact that is one of the founding reasons I love this show). There is nothing for Sam to be bitter about. She did what Jack had encouraged her to do on numerous occasions: she got a life.

I question her choice of a life partner, but I'll get into that later on.

Even after she started dating Pete, she was still friends with Jack...that was not going to change. When I started dating my now husband, I still had friends who I shared my concerns with, so it doesn't seem unrealistic to me that when she was sitting in her lab, sleep deprived, with the weight of this life-changing decision rattling around in her head, and her CO and friend, who has had a family while he was a combat soldier, and therefore could give her a realistic perspective on what it would be like...and whether it would be fair to subject a spouse and family to her life, walks in and essentially says "What's the matter with you?", that she responds in the way she did.

She desperately needs to share her heart and seek advice, and Jack waltzes in. She really doesn't have family close enough to ask these sensitive questions: Mark wouldn't understand, and Jacob is not physically present, and even if he was, there are multiple layers of complications between them that would taint the answers. Jack also wandered in when her resistance was low: she's too tired to be strong and bottle it up.

I think that the conversation took on layers of meaning that she never intended: IMO, when she said "What about you...", she realized too late that the question unintentionally opened up the raw spot of Charlie's death. "What about you...if things had been different..." -if his son hadn't died, he would never have gone on that first trip to Abydos...he would have never joined the Stargate program...and things would have been vastly different. But they are not different...and Charlie is still dead. Thank you so much for reminding him. Jack winces.

I know that not all shippers see it this way, and that's ok -the different interpretations make for fantastic fan fiction. I just don't think it is fair to assess to either of the characters a level of insensitivity and spite that seems terribly OOC for both of them.

me too, b/c this was the sam/jack love story, and pete was the stand-in and only important to the story to get sam and jack together.

Nah, I didn't think Shanahan was important to the story but rather they added him in on AT's insistence.

for me, pete and the storyline was a joke, and a poorly told one at that. it wasn't *needed* to me, to bring any kind of resolve to sam's (and jack's) love life.

I don't know that TPTB would have viewed Sam's bf as a catalyst to bring Sam and Jack together, since they never seemed to commit themselves to confirmation. I actually see them as granting AT's request because they saw the goldmine of sexual tension that could be created, and that it would boost the ratings and viewship. It's all about ratings to TPTB...it's what keeps a show on the air.

Oh yeah, I totally agree about how badly it was handled. I was merely pointing out that I understood AT's request about her character getting a boyfriend. It's just too bad the writers/PTB had to screw it up. Not just with dragging it out to an engagement in spite of what (almost) happened between Sam and Jack in Lost City etc, but the snooping, stalking and background checking too! I was disappointed in that they (and AT herself too!) apparently thought it was okay for him to do that because he was a cop and knew Sam wasn't telling him the truth, but in my opinion he should have known and understood the meaning of classified. Instead, he threw a temper tantrum like a spoiled child, called in a favor for a background check on Sam right after sleeping together for the first time and then he went on to follow her to a stakeout (regardless of his FBI pal's warning) and to top it all off, everyone thought that was just fine and because he got shot (and endangered everyone else on the mission plus Osiris getting away) they read him in on the Program! That was just... damn. I can't help but wonder who came up with that idea and what he/she had been on at the time!

I don't think I could have said this better. *applauds*

No offense. I don't want to get modded but I always wondered if Pete was played by another actor (not a DeLuise) he would last for so long...

I once heard that Ben Bowder was auditioned for this role before the character of Cam was ever created. I think that he could have made a better match to Sam visually (but they still would have had to improve the storyline and made him less of a snoopy creep).

I think if Pete had behaved a little less childishly, it would not have mattered who played him. The writing left something to be desired.

[Sparky She-Demon]

He is a pretty, pretty man.

Glad you agree! Why do you think I try to get the episodes he's in?

[AmberLM]

No offense. I don't want to get modded but I always wondered if Pete was played by another actor (not a DeLuise) he would last for so long...

I think he would have been in the show for the same amount of time, but, for me, his casting in the role was all wrong and he was also badly written.

The role of Sam's boyfriend should have been an understatedly handsome guy who was taller than her in heels and serious - basically, Joe Faxon. Joe was the kind of guy you would expect a woman like Sam to date. He's smart, financially secure, middle-American and charming. Pete was insecure, needy, manipulative and distinctly average-looking.

Even RDA laughed when someone suggested Pete might be competition for Jack - the point of Pete was to create tension of the "hey, this guy could have Jack on the ropes with Sam here " not "wth is she thinking going out with that buffoon?!"

I can imagine McKay's reaction to Pete - "Seriously?!? This is a joke, right? You can't really be dating him? But he's so... And you're so... really? [to himself] Ok, well, I think I'll just go and throw myself into the sea on Atlantis. What's the point of carrying on if guys like that are considered more attractive than me?"

The thing that makes me think that Jack was referring to Sam, not Charlie, was his emphasis. He leant on "I wouldn't be here" rather than "I wouldn't be here" - to me, it was an important emphasis. To me, he was saying "I wouldn't be standing here listening to you ask me to tell you not to marry another guy!" His face says it all. Sam's insensitivity astounded me but she's rubbish at relationships and, to be fair, Jack is equally as bad. It makes them human.

[hlndncr]

I never thought of it before, but if I were Sam I would choose McKay over in a heartbeat.

[Samantha-Carter-is-my-muse]

I never thought of it before, but if I were Sam I would choose McKay over in a heartbeat.

Yeah, same here

[majorsal]

However, I still stand by my opinion that the choice to accept/reject the proposal was Sam's and hers alone: she either wanted to marry the guy or she didn't. It's not rocket science and Jack's (former or current) feelings for her shouldn't influence the fact that she either wanted to spend the rest of her life with another man or not. Asking Jack at that moment, under those circumstances, and with the intention of having him talk her out of it was simply wrong and unfair to him, her boyfriend and even Sam herself.

for me, jack doing nothing and saying nothing comes off that he's just not interested in her in a romantic way. that's all that vagueness does for me...

i was reading a fic last night (frustrating one, b/c ol' petey boy suddenly showed up and ticked off almost every fan comment ), and someone left a really great review that grabbed my attention for this debate we're having...

"Okay while I can sympathize with Jack it seems high time he remembers that you can be a hero without being a martyr. I want to shake him and tell him to fight for her for once!"

going with that review, i want jack to fight for sam for once!!