Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[fems]

Well to be fair to Kynthia, she probably did think of Jack as 'hers' - this is the way they've always done things.

The two pieces (and I know I'm playing with fire) that have always bugged me about this episode:

1. Why have they not set any guidelines on food consumption? Even the most basic traveler in the US knows not to drink the water in certain countries so why would eating food on a foreign planet with organisms you know nothing about be okay?! I mean, I get it, there's going to be a natural swapping of ecological type things anyway, but this is one of the many uses of MREs - which while not gourmet by any stretch of the imagination is at the very least SAFE...

2. The double standard of 'date rape' in television culture...

Spoiler:

Look, if they had played it as Sam getting drugged and being 'seduced' by a guy, we would have, rightly, been screaming about how she was raped. The story line would have probably played out differently. Jack on the other hand, it's like "Oh look, he just got a nice looking chick to drug him and have her way with him..." Normally I don't get into issues like this because I think that there are certain groups who take this kind of thing too far - but the reality is that most women have come into contact with or been the victim of being taken against their will. I found this entire episode shameful in this regard. It's probably my least favorite. I'm not saying we should have had an episode of Jack agonizing over being raped - I can understand that they're saying this is a different culture and these are a bunch of naive people who know that it is their baking in their cakes before handing them out and everyone knows what they're eating before they start - but it irks me anyway. Maybe I'm wrong on this so that's why I put it in spoilers. Because BAH - I just would have written the story differently.

I agree on both points. But to be fair this is still early days and the SG teams are probably like "Well, these people are humans so if they can eat it without ill effects...". But then there are a lot of things I find incredible as well, even later on. Post-mission SOPs for example don't seem to have ever been established. The teams can go take a shower, sometimes have to report to the infirmary or just go home in their freaking BDUs after an off-world mission (or even working safely in the lab on alien tech/meds/plants etc).

The rape thing still bothers me and I will never be okay with that episode. For some reason men are all like "good for him" as long as the woman is hot/experienced, even when you hear RL news stories about men being date raped or had a woman force herself on them.

OT

Spoiler:

A few months ago there was an article about a man (I think it was in Germany, but I'm not sure) who called the police because there was a woman who wouldn't let him leave until he'd had sex with her. I believe he'd already given in once or twice even though he didn't really want to but she had forced herself on him (an erection can easily be manipulated even if a man doesn't want to have sex) and now he was exhausted and scared etc.

Anyway, a lot of the reader comments were about what a pathetic guy he was for calling the police and how lucky he was lucky the woman wanted to have sex with him, or that at least she was hot and he should man up and whatnot. Really disgusting.

Same thing when you hear stories about female teachers seducing and having sex with teenage male students. The comments; why weren't there any teachers like that when I was in high school?

But if you reverse the roles and it's a man trapping a woman in an apartment and forcing himself on her, or a male teacher seducing female teenage students there's outrage.

[RamonaThePest]

*pokes head in* Omg, did I kill this thread the other night...?

Ok, um, time to fix that...

I found this on tumblr:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y20...confession.jpg

...Discuss.

*runs back out*

Someone mentioned this is the wrong picture for the comment for discussion. I think the comment is just not true for their relationship at all. In fact, if we just had to say who loves who more - if we just [I]had[I] to, I would say Jack but he is emotionally afraid, drained, full of self hatred. I love this scene because if you listen really closely to what he is saying (and not saying), it gives it all away. His comment that "...the only thing I have to be concerned with is whether or not to get a dog!" He's just described why they can't be together - part of him doesn't want the worry, guilt, fear, work or responsibility that a relationship requires for him (not of him, but for him; another part can't bear the weight that he may hurt Sam (irrationally, the ways he hurt Charlie and Sarah - not completely about the deathly gunshot, but knowing due to his dark depths he will always be somewhat cut off - although, Sam could probably handle that better than anybody else which makes her all the bigger danger for him. And of course, his guilt over Charlie says he doesn't deserve happiness.

Just getting a dog requires no responsibilities other than the vet, feeding and exercise. He won't have to worry about letting a dog down. It's easy and a cop out and yet he's angry also at himself for knowing he could have bliss if he'd had the courage o reach out for it. Yeah, big bad O'Neill was too scared and missed his opportunity. He would never expect Sam to wait for him because he doesn't ever think he'll be ready and yet, he's mad at her because of his amazing (and warped) sense of loyalty. She could have never made the right choice for him under the circumstances.

The "get a dog" statement says so much about why they aren't together and the anger in his voice as he says it: I WANT YOU/DON'T WANT YOU! Is it any wonder Sam was confused?

I would say that Sam was far more demonstrative of her love for Jack than he was towards her - I think part of what happened in Grace and with Pete was that she had no indications from Jack that he felt the same about her. I think post-Entity Jack realized that he was too close and he backed off - to the point that she didn't know anymore if he felt the same way that he always had.

I think he always loved her. He loved her enough to let her go.

Yes, because he thinks he's too messed up and not the best or her.

I agree, after Entity Jack realized that as the military officer he should've been willing to shoot without hesitating but he cared about her so much that he did hesitate and then hated himself for having to pull the trigger. I think they both loved each other deeply. It began with respect for each other and their abilities, then to companionship the whole team shared, and then it became something so much more.

I think the problem was that they both were afraid of their feelings and about admitting how they really felt about each other. Not only did they know that those feelings could get in the way of their job, but I think they were also personally afraid. Jack's been in love, got married, and had/lost Charlie. And Sam's also been through a lot. She lost her mother at a young age and even though her father was alive he wasn't really there for her as a child.

They were afraid to take that next step because when they were team members and co workers they always had the "regs" to hide behind and the excuse that neither of them could retire because they had to protect the world from the Gould. I love the look on Jack's face when Carrie breaks up with him and asks him why he hasn't retired and come back as a civilian leader, then the look on his face when he realizes that he's done running from his feelings

http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/...1_818_0961.jpg
http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/...1_818_1139.jpg
http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/...1_818_1162.jpg

We should have a 2nd Shipday devoted to Threads *shippy sigh*

Yes. I think Jack thought Carrie could handle a physical relationship/friendship. (But how could she help falling for him after all? Smart girl to see where his feelings lie and get out!) I personally think once Jack saw Carrie getting invested, he would have broken it off anyway. Not to be a cad, but he would not want to hurt her more than necessary. (Besides we (and he) know who is heart belongs to.)

I think the thing with Threads is that that episode could have been movie length. I do believe there was so much else happening off screen between Jack and Sam. I'm of the belief that there was words before the observation room scene, I also think Jacob would have put his thoughts in to Jack as well at some point.

As for wether Sam loved Jack more, I don't think that's true at all, I think they both have very deep feelings for each other. I think Jack just keeps his hidden a lot more, and that's pretty normal for men really, women are defiantly more open emotionally it's kind of just our make up. You can see every time Sam is in danger the uttermost love on Jacks face and the fear he has of losing her, the same for Sam. In fact I also think Sam did a pretty good job of hiding her feeling too it wasn't really until season 7 that it all started to get a bit much for her, and then the whole thing happened. It would have been far easier if it had got a bit too much for jack at the same time then we wouldn't have had all the upset of season 7/8 but then again it proved a point and ended up with the right outcome.

I believe I heard on a commentary or somewhere that some episodes orders were switched. I believe it was Citizen Joe. If you note the casual way that Sam and Jack are talking over the phone about his secret ingredient in his scrambled eggs (breakfast food ), I believe the commentator said CJ was supposed to air after Threads.

If Jack retired, there's no way on God's green earth they would let him continue to command the base. He wouldn't come back as anything but an advisor because it's a military installation (unlike Atlantis which was foreign territory and an international unit comprised of both civilians and military), therefore a general would need to be in charge of it. If anything, I think Kerry's subtext is - "You've done enough for this country, if she means that much, retire, leave, get the heck out." Go fishing, in other words.

So no, they weren't playing willy nilly with the regs. He wouldn't have been able to stay on in his capacity.

So why were they willing to let Weir, a civilian run it, if that were not possible?

[RamonaThePest]

This is a lovely sentiment, but it's just not how the military works, and Sam and Jack know that. That's why I agree with Nyn 100%. The only sure guarantee that they can be together is if they marry. After all Sam and Jack have gone through to be together I'm certain they wouldn't take the chance on always having sympathetic commanders, who regardless would not and could not ignore mission critical needs because it may feel like the right thing to do. That's just not realistic or practical. Sam and Jack being realistic and practical people would act accordingly.

I've always wondered how this works in real life. So if to people are not in the chain of command, but one out ranks the other, isn't that still fraterinization? And if so, how could they ever get together?

In Sam & Jack's case, if they married, wouldn't the logical conclusion be that they had to fratenerized (sorry) beforehand? And isn't the marriage a violation for that reason in itself?

[fems]

Yes. I think Jack thought Carrie could handle a physical relationship/friendship. (But how could she help falling for him after all? Smart girl to see where his feelings lie and get out!) I personally think once Jack saw Carrie getting invested, he would have broken it off anyway. Not to be a cad, but he would not want to hurt her more than necessary. (Besides we (and he) know who is heart belongs to.)

I believe I heard on a commentary or somewhere that some episodes orders were switched. I believe it was Citizen Joe. If you note the casual way that Sam and Jack are talking over the phone about his secret ingredient in his scrambled eggs (breakfast food ), I believe the commentator said CJ was supposed to air after Threads.

I'm putting those two together since my answer is about the Jack/Kerry relationship and how invested she is as well as the order of the episodes.

What you are referring to is that the episode order for the European and Australian release of season 8 was mixed up; Citizen Joe was set after Threads and prior to Moebieus. However, this is the wrong order since Jack clearly states in the opening scene of Citizen Joe that on Monday morning he has "a thing with someone from CIA. A Johnson someone or other. It's about that whole Kinsey thing", which clearly implies he has no idea who this (Kerry) Johnson is. It would therefore be impossible for them to have a relationship in Threads. Of course, someone could argue that they did say wanted to keep a low profile and not have anyone at the SGC know of their relationship, but Jack first introduces Sam to Kerry at the SGC and later on they meet again at his house... so, after Threads Jack and Sam would both know who this Johnson from the CIA is.

As for the whole Jack/Kerry relationship and him breaking it off once he'd notice she was getting too invested... I think she already was. Remember her slip in Threads when she was telling him that he had issues? She said it wasn't something she could "love" with, before correcting herself and saying "live". Personally, I think the whole thing could have been handled better by TPTB, since the two of them apparently met shortly after Citizen Joe (during the meeting he mentioned to Sam over the phone) and then the next episode was Reckoning, during which Jack was kinda preoccupied to do a lot of dating and then there's Threads... Even if there's more than a week between episodes it seems a very short time for them to get really serious and with Kerry looking rather comfortable around his house and making a salad (or whatever it was) in the kitchen while he's outside - let alone for her to already love him.

Then again, he is Jack O'Neill so I guess we can't blame her for falling for him!

I've always wondered how this works in real life. So if to people are not in the chain of command, but one out ranks the other, isn't that still fraterinization? And if so, how could they ever get together?

In Sam & Jack's case, if they married, wouldn't the logical conclusion be that they had to fratenerized (sorry) beforehand? And isn't the marriage a violation for that reason in itself?

The frat regs (like many others) are available online and you can just download the PDF if you want. With Jack moving to DC and Sam eventually getting her transfer to Area 51, it is suggested they aren't in the same chain of command anymore for the months until she is forced to return ("temporarily") to the SGC. At the SGC she was back under Landry's command, whose CO is presumably Jack O'Neill at HWS. So, in between Sam's transfers they could date and get married.

[RamonaThePest]

[CENTER]

Brief Candle

Favorite Scene: When Jack collapses on the second day and Sam catches him and cradles him in her arms.

Favorite Quote: Have an apple. What could happen?

SNIPPED

Now, by this time in the series, and after having touched that crystal in “Cold Lazarus”, and after what happened to Sam on P3X-whatever when she drank that stuff that made her take off one of her undergarments, and after what happened to Sam in “Emancipation”, the group should be especially wary of people offering them cake or cookies or anything edible. But, apparently Jack has forgotten those episodes and eats the cake while eerie music plays softly in the background. I rather expected a shark to pop up from the fountain they were all sitting on.

You're absolutely correct, of course but we the viewers were delightfully naive (as was our beloved team) during the first viewing and hadn't as yet scrutinized/analyzed every moment. Wasn't it fun?

SNIPPED

When Jack is led away by Kynthia, the team tries to stop them, only to have their way blocked and themselves physically restrained by the villagers. After what happened to Sam in “Emancipation”, how could they simply allow this to happen? Plus, since when can a group of villagers actually stop a very determined - though temporarily down one member - SG1? All that needed to be done was Teal’c firing his staff weapon into the air to frighten them into backing off.

It's probably a combination of the double standard you mentioned (I think it was you) of not really thinking Kynthia meant any harm or that Jack would'nt object too strongly

SNIPPED

The rest of the episode is devoted to the team finding answers, and a continuingly aging Jack spending time with Kynthia and the villagers, and Jack informing the villagers they’ve been nothing more than a bunch of lab rats. Was this the right thing for him to do? It was like using a hammer on innocent little bunnies.

Interesting point. I never thought about whether it was right or not. I guess they were blissfully happy before the news. But I still took satisfaction with the new father's righteous indignation of being some fake "god's" lab rat. But that's our Colonel O'Neill - exposing "gods" for the scrawny l'il grey-azzed or slimy snakes they are across the galaxy and diplomacy be da*ned! lol

SNIPPED

Jack ages very quickly in this episode, and his personality changes overly quickly to correspond to the aging. His attitude changes over what ought to be based on a lifetime of experiences, but he doesn’t have those experiences to base the attitude change on. He just has Kynthia’s little pearls of wisdom to go on, and at the end says what I don’t think Jack of any age would say: “Sweet Kynthia, I've learned so much from you. I'll treasure every day of my life because of you.” Makes him sound like a gushy, sentimental old man, instead of the crotchety one he’d been up to that point. As we see in future episodes, Jack doesn’t become that man that cherishes every moment of his life.

True, doesn't sound like ONeill except, by Kynthia being so naive, perhaps he gave a childlike answer just to placate her. And perhaps this did make him value his remaining years more. Maybe this is also a part of what got rid of his thoughts of suicide, along with Daniel's friendship and his duty to save earth - all of this is how his heart was open enough for Sam to have wormed her way in.

SNIPPED

5. Jack is seen starting a letter to Sara, but doesn’t get past “Dear Sara”. I wonder what he would have said to her had he been able to put it into words. He also refers to her as his ex-wife, which suggests that they are now definitely divorced.

8. When Kynthia asks Jack if he will live the rest of his days without making love, and he replies he hopes not. But it takes another couple of years before he actually does that. And after that, another 4-5 years.

10. Kynthia is quite possessive towards the end. When walking back to the fountain, Jack has an arm looped through Kynthia's and the other through Sam's arm. Kynthia quickly inserts herself between Jack and Sam and all but pushes Sam away. Kynthia acts as though she's protecting her property.

5. I wonder too.

8. "It takes another couple of years" When? With who? (I know about Season 8, but who before Kerry Johnson?

10. I'll have to watch for that. Good thing Sam wasn't emotionally invested yet or there would have been Kynthia bits kicked and splattered all over that fountain!

Oh no, it just hit me - How old is Kyntha - 6? *Don't think about it. STOP thinking about it.*

FAVORITE MOMENT: Jack's spontaneous laughter, never to be seen again throughout the series.

And actually the cause of that laughter didn't really fit future storylines - noone would know better than Te'alc that there is no such thing as a good go'auld (although, he was aware of the "legend" of the Tokra, I suppose.)

That's what I love about this show - whenever I think I spot an early plothole, I can find something in the story arc that makes it make sense (except for a few regarding Kowalski in Children of the gods).

[fems]

Jack slept with Laira in A Hundred Days.

[Sparky She-Demon]

Jack slept with Laira in A Hundred Days.

What is it about the Stargate men and sleeping with good looking alien women?

[RamonaThePest]

Jack slept with Laira in A Hundred Days.

How the heck did I forget THAT! I must've blocked it out. I don't know why the Laira thing irks me so much more than Kyntha. Maybe because of what could have happened to jeopardize Jack ever coming home or being with Sam. I have no doubt that if Laira had been pregnant, there is no way Jack would've abandoned his child. Evenif he'd had to commute to earth to continue saving the planet. He might even have - based on his guilt of letting Charlie down - decided earth would have to make due without him as he will not let another child down by dying on a mission and leaving it without a father. ALL IMHO.

[RamonaThePest]

What is it about the Stargate men and sleeping with good looking alien women?

Hey, Sparky. Well, Laira and Kynthia were both human, technically speaking. But it's a Kirk thang. lol

[Sparky She-Demon]

It's a Kirk thang. lol

Isn't it always?

[Nynaeve506]

So why were they willing to let Weir, a civilian run it, if that were not possible?

Context m'dear. When Weir was put in charge it was political move to remove the military control. While Jack is in charge it is *in military control* - that means that if he retires, the USAF gets to determine who's there (ostensibly with the Commander in Chief's approval) - that means it's being treated as a military installation ergo, another general.

[RamonaThePest]

Ahhhhhh. Thanks.

[SaraBahama]

[CENTER]

Brief Candle

Jack ages very quickly in this episode, and his personality changes overly quickly to correspond to the aging. His attitude changes over what ought to be based on a lifetime of experiences, but he doesn’t have those experiences to base the attitude change on. He just has Kynthia’s little pearls of wisdom to go on, and at the end says what I don’t think Jack of any age would say: “Sweet Kynthia, I've learned so much from you. I'll treasure every day of my life because of you.” Makes him sound like a gushy, sentimental old man, instead of the crotchety one he’d been up to that point. As we see in future episodes, Jack doesn’t become that man that cherishes every moment of his life.


Shippy bits:

None on Jack’s part that I noticed. He was too busy being drugged and seduced by Kynthia, ordering the team to find answers, and then turning into a rapidly aging, crotchety old man.

For Sam, nothing really until Jack starts acting strangely, giggling, and being led off by Kynthia. Not long later, when they find him wrapped in a bedspread, even the tone of Sam’s voice changes when addressing him. I’m sure she’s disappointed in him; though that undoubtedly changes when she discovers he’s been drugged and infested with nanites.


Little things of interest:

1. Jack said he was a 40-year old man, when according to later episodes (and his birthdate) it would seem he’s actually several years older.

2. Daniel refers to Sam as “Carter” a few times during this episode.

3. In the scene where Sam is explaining how many days there are in a year, Jack rudely interrupts her and abruptly tells her to “let’s keep this simple”, and she glares at him. I think any feelings of intimidation about him are long gone by now, if there ever were any.

4. In the scene in the courtyard where Jack collapses and Sam is holding him in her arms, we have a scene that is later duplicated in “Divide & Conquer” when Sam is holding the now dead Martouf in her arms on the floor of the gate room. Except one lives and one dies.

5. Jack is seen starting a letter to Sara, but doesn’t get past “Dear Sara”. I wonder what he would have said to her had he been able to put it into words. He also refers to her as his ex-wife, which suggests that they are now definitely divorced.

6. When he’s through reviewing the video from the SGC explaining why the team isn’t coming back, he hits the rewind button; the whirring can be heard. Wonder how many times he did that or had already done it prior to the viewing we saw.

7. Did Jack spend the majority of his time sitting in that chair surrounded by red pillows in the room with Pelops? Reminds me of all those Gou’ald lords and ladies who seem to do nothing more than sit in big throne chairs and look bored. Though, to be fair, he did change his seating arrangement briefly to sit at the top of the steps to stare at the gate.

8. When Kynthia asks Jack if he will live the rest of his days without making love, and he replies he hopes not. But it takes another couple of years before he actually does that. And after that, another 4-5 years.

9. Nice to see that Teal’c actually got something important to do in this episode when he figured out the combination just as Daniel was explaining what a combination was. And then being able to help translate what was on the tablet.

10. Kynthia is quite possessive towards the end. When walking back to the fountain, Jack has an arm looped through Kynthia's and the other through Sam's arm. Kynthia quickly inserts herself between Jack and Sam and all but pushes Sam away. Kynthia acts as though she's protecting her property.

Thanks for the review, hedwig!

You pulled out some insights that haven't been done to death. I didn't notice the first time I watched how OOC the "Sweet Kynthia..." part is. Jack became more quiet and reserved as he aged -slower to speak, more likely to think before opening his mouth (not always, but mostly).

I thought the concept of the episode was good: humans who only live 100 days -but some of the details were a little off-kilter. Early ep with some nice photo opportunities, but not one of my faves.

[Starry Starry Night]

This is a lovely sentiment, but it's just not how the military works, and Sam and Jack know that. That's why I agree with Nyn 100%. The only sure guarantee that they can be together is if they marry. After all Sam and Jack have gone through to be together I'm certain they wouldn't take the chance on always having sympathetic commanders, who regardless would not and could not ignore mission critical needs because it may feel like the right thing to do. That's just not realistic or practical. Sam and Jack being realistic and practical people would act accordingly.

Thanks, I'm actually not so familiar with the military rules and regs, just what I read here... Ok, my personal opinion can be that they didn't get married right away, but it's also quite strongly connected to the deleted scene of SGA ep Trio. When Jennifer asks Sam about her relationship, she answers "it's complicated" and then says something quite vague not really saying it's Jack (but of course it's obvious). It just isn't an answer of a married woman IMHO.

And I understand that the military doesn't work that way, but I also think Jack was really ready to retire (not only for the sake of their relationship) since he had already retired and the last 8 years had been extra. At that point if the air force really wants for Jack to continue, they can't tell him to just forget about Carter, because then he would retire.. But, of course it can be that they still wouldn't accept it. I just don't want to think about it that way..

[selene0789]

I'm split down the middle on the issue of *when* Sam and Jack make it official.

Part of me agrees with the idea of them getting together at the end of Season 8, when they go their separate ways in their professional lives, and are no longer in each other's chain of command. At the same time, a practical part of me wonders if them doing so would be them moving too fast, and the lack of onscreen confirmation in the final two seasons of SG-1. I acknowledge Jack would likely hesitate before immediately making that jump straight to marriage as soon as they're out of each other's COC, as it would not only be a huge assumption to make (that they'd be good spouses despite never having gone on an official date) but I think he'd be wary after one failed marriage already.

So another side of me agrees that they might not have gotten together until after Sam got back from Atlantis. This is in keeping with intended canon, what with the "Trio" deleted scene, and makes more sense for me in terms of the frat regs. But I do accept that while they may not have gotten married at the end of Season 8, they definitely made a commitment to each other. They finally sat down, gave words to the emotions they felt for each other, and decided what to about it. In my mind, they each say, "Well, it can't happen yet if we both want to contribute to the military still, but I'm ready to wait." Thereby promising to remain faithful and anticipatory, but not necessarily exchanging matrimonial vows.

And then, in this scenario, once Sam got back from Atlantis, they both finally decide-- I don't give a rat's ass about the frat regs. They've been out of each other's *direct* chain of command (as in she's no longer his 2IC) long enough that there's no practical concerns for combat situations, and once they both get to a certain rank, they have the presence of mind to decide they'll accept the consequences.

And while they may not get permission to marry, even if such permission may be necessary to cover their butts later on down the line, I think enough people in the upper echelons of DC would know and ignore that if someone *does* eventually try to use their marriage as ammunition against them, that nasty individual would be laughed out of the Capital. Because there does come a point where even the military decides to overlook a regulation infraction in order to preserve an otherwise untarnished military record. And of anyone else in the SG Program, Sam and Jack have earned it the most, and no one on Earth could have disputed it.