Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[Tachyon]

Jonah and Thera were a couple, without a doubt. Even Kegan disliked them both, claming they both thought they were better than the rest of them. And if I have understood correctly, there were plans to confirm this relationship on screen, but it was dropped later on:

Thera and Jonah were supposed to kiss to confirm that they were in a relationship, but this was dropped because O'Neill had already kissed Carter earlier in the season in "Window of Opportunity". Source: DVD Commentaries

[UhSir]

Ah, well I don't do commentaries and I *blushes* kind of didn't really pay a lot of attention to the DannyKarlan/Kegan only parts.

edited to add:
Reminds me of a couple of other things but not shippy
DanielKarlan ran around in a sleeveless shirt whilst JackJonah had that stuffy quilted jacket on the whole time. *pouts*

DanielKarlan devouring that glop had me giggling so much I had to rewind the scene a couple of times to catch the dialogue.

[Petra]

I love Beneath the Surface. Really, really love, as in it's my second favourite episode in the entire series (or franchise).

General stuff:
It's a great character piece despite being set off-world and dealing with a very sci-fi element. It's probably the best example of how a shippy episode (and IMO it's the shippiest ep of the series too) can be teamy at the same time, include secondary characters (yay for gen. Hammond, Janet and Griff) and still introduce and flesh out a bit new characters (Brenna, Calder, Kegan). It's got great story (no major plotholes), wonderful music (I knew it was going to be good as soon as I heard first notes when we get this huge shot showing the whole factory at the beginning) and some of the best acting. The sets are awesome, costume department also did a good job - although I'm still wondering why Jack and Sam wore those oversized pyjamas when other workers walked around semi-naked..It's an episode made of win.

Daniel and Teal'c

I think the portrayal of both of them is spot-on. It makes sense that Teal'c would be the hardest to stamp and would try to convince the others that they are being lied to. It's very telling that he jumps in to stop Jack from fighting with Daniel. It's also very in-character for him to be sneaky, gather all the info he needs, work out the solution for himself (removing bandages upon hearing that it's forbidden) and finally save the day.

Initial antagonism between Jack and Daniel makes perfect sense. They are very different people and if it wasn't for very special circumstances in which they met I doubt they would ever become friends or even *like* each other. Respect, appreciate - yes, but genuinely like? I don't think so. And since they don't remember their shared history..

Oh yeah, and Daniel/Carlin and Kegan. If we assume Jonah/Thera are a couple then those two seem to be one as well. I find it pretty funny that Daniel fans seem to forget all about her, especially when some of them complain that "Daniel wasn't man enough" on the series.

Sam and Jack:

I guess everything was already said and there's not much to add except join the others in saying how much I love all Jonah/Thera -Jack/Sam interactions. However..

Overall, this is a great ship episode. I think it would have been great to have seen a kiss but it doesn’t need it. In many ways, if they had been shown or alluded to be intimate then it’s difficult to see how they could have continued to serve together afterwards– there would have been consequences and I think both of them would have realised that they had crossed a line they couldn’t uncross. Which of course has made for a LOT of fanfic.

Actually every time I watch BtS I get that "intimate" vibe. For me it's the only episode in the series when I can believe they crossed the line (and let's remember that this was the original plan; the whole point of the episode was to show them in an intimate relationship which they are forced to gve up when their memories return). I just can't make up my mind if they were lovers right from the beginning of the ep or they decided to do it after "feeling feelings" scene.

What always strikes me is that Jonah especially seems to be more open about sex than Jack. He seems to be more, I don't know how to put it, "physical" maybe? I don't think Jack would ever admit to having erotic (or at the very least somewhat sexual in nature) dreams in his friends' company.

Just my 2 cents..

[JenniferJF]

Well, Solitudes was my shippy wake up call. But honestly, if I take off my shipper glasses the question from DanielKarlan really doesn't make sense. There is nothing that would have given him rise to ask that. JackJonah never said anything about remembering cold. The only thing I can think of is that JackJonah and SamThera are known to be a couple? It really doesn't fit any decent way other than for it to be a barefaced pointer to Sam and Jack being trapped in Solitudes.

See, I never even considered it had anything to do with Solitudes until I read your comment, and still don't think that's it I hate to admit. But I never really thought they 'fell in love' during Solitudes, either. I think Sam is remembering, literally, the ice covered planet outside, the place 'Thera' and 'Jonah' came from in the memory that was created inside them.

Or, more simply, the memories that were stuck in them sort of fade in from cold and black. But, like I said, when I watch Solitudes I think that, while they grew closer and it started to break-down some of the barriers between them and help Sam, especially, to really *see* the man behind the Colonel, as it were, I don't think they really 'fell in love' there. Though I guess it's possible, in that case, for Sam to have been remembering when she first started to really know *Jack*.

But I still think, in context, Sam was referring to the very first points in the memories which were stuck in her: they started out of cold darkness and 'Jonah' is there from the beginning so that much be where she met him.

Also, I'm in the equally non-shippy camp that can't believe Sam and Jack ever did more in that reality than possibly kiss for the exact reason the rest of you who don't think so have said: if they had crossed that line, I can't imagine them having gone back to the way things were. First because Jack is to monogomous by nature to have simply abandoned her like that afterwards and secondly because it would be, effectively, Sam's worst fear realized - of loving and being left - and her psychological fall out from that would have been significant.

All based on my personal interpretation of the characters, of course

That doesn't, however, mean I don't think they didn't consider themselves 'a couple' as Thera and Jonah, because I do see a high degree of intimacy between them, especially as open with her fears and emotions as she is in the 'feeling feelings' scene and how quick he is to step in and protect her emotionally. And their body language echoes this emotional closeness. I just don't think that intimacy translated into sex or I don't think there would have been any going back. And in fact, it's that total emotional intimacy which makes me rather like the fact there is no kiss. Maybe it's a perverseness in my nature, but for some reason the lack of a kiss makes their emotional intimacy more profound. We've seen Jack being protective and close to women he's slept with - that's just him 'being a gentleman'. The idea he's being that way with Sam despite that lack of visible 'benefits' makes it that much more significant.

Again, IMHO of course....

[m_wendy_r]

Actually every time I watch BtS I get that "intimate" vibe. For me it's the only episode in the series when I can believe they crossed the line (and let's remember that this was the original plan; the whole point of the episode was to show them in an intimate relationship which they are forced to gve up when their memories return). I just can't make up my mind if they were lovers right from the beginning of the ep or they decided to do it after "feeling feelings" scene.

..

I've always believed that they had been intimate in some way during this episode. Most likely, though, just kissing and such. I definitely think that it came before (or at least, started) the "feeling feelings" scene.

[kusanagi]

Also, I'm in the equally non-shippy camp that can't believe Sam and Jack ever did more in that reality than possibly kiss for the exact reason the rest of you who don't think so have said: if they had crossed that line, I can't imagine them having gone back to the way things were. First because Jack is to monogomous by nature to have simply abandoned her like that afterwards and secondly because it would be, effectively, Sam's worst fear realized - of loving and being left - and her psychological fall out from that would have been significant.

I have to agree. It was hard enough to repress feelings for each other for such a long time. And like Jann said, it's difficult to believe, that they would be able to maintain status quo (repress them again) if something really happened. That, and also because of all the reasons Jann is mentioning above

[Rachel500]

I don't necessarily see Solitudes as being the place they fell in love but I do see it as being the turning point when attraction shifted into something deeper. Going through that type of experience alone together I think bonded them on a much more personal level. And I see Solitudes really as where the professional line really started blurring for them beyond the friendship, team bonds and camaraderie they had already established.

I have to admit with Beneath the Surface I don't think Sam is referring to their solitudes experience either but it's an interesting correlation that both episodes effectively take place "under the ice". And I do think there is some call back intended in that.

I also will admit that I debate with myself whether they kissed or not. In my Aftershock I did go with a kiss but only after the feeling feelings discussion - and only a single kiss. Because they've done that before and continued on afterwards (Broca Divide, WOO).

I just don't think Sam and Jack screwed the regs before Threads in any context (and I'm even of the opinion that they did wait until everything was officially OK before they took their relationship to a physical level) because the fallout of that would have just so immense that I don't think they would have been able to stay on the same team (annerb has a great fic called Tiny Little Fractures which kind of shows that fabulously).

And having said that I agree with Jenn that the fact there is so much emotional intimacy between the couple without a physical payoff/reward is actually very touching - and very revealing of just how much they love each other.

[Tachyon]

I personally see that the two were extremely smitten with each other on the beginning of the episode, hanging out together during their off hours and such, but after the "feeling the feelings" discussion they might have shared a good night kiss or something like that. Johan should have stayed on Thera's bunk during that night and give his bunk to the poor man, who slept on the floor (if I remember correctly, there was a man on the floor in the mornign scene, where Jonah finally remembers what's above the surface).

[josiane]

Great discussion everyone! I don't think I really have anything to add, except to say that I love this episode too, for all the reasons you have enumerated, and on the intimacy question, I think there was kissing but I agree they probably didn't go any much further because, as Jenn says, I'm not sure they would have been able to carry on as before quite as easily (!) if they had. But I agree that if there was any occasion when they did, then it would have been here.

[Cagranosalis]

Initial antagonism between Jack and Daniel makes perfect sense. They are very different people and if it wasn't for very special circumstances in which they met I doubt they would ever become friends or even *like* each other. Respect, appreciate - yes, but genuinely like? I don't think so. And since they don't remember their shared history..

Oh now that's a very nice point especially considering that their friendship around this time has been on the more antagonistic side.
One of the things I do love about this episode is the way their stamped personalities mirror their real ones. It is very much a case of stripping off their previous history and any inhibitions their real life relationships force on them and allowing us to see what they could be like. NOwhere is this more prominent that in Sam and Jack's inetractions.

Actually every time I watch BtS I get that "intimate" vibe. For me it's the only episode in the series when I can believe they crossed the line (and let's remember that this was the original plan; the whole point of the episode was to show them in an intimate relationship which they are forced to gve up when their memories return). I just can't make up my mind if they were lovers right from the beginning of the ep or they decided to do it after "feeling feelings" scene.

What always strikes me is that Jonah especially seems to be more open about sex than Jack. He seems to be more, I don't know how to put it, "physical" maybe? I don't think Jack would ever admit to having erotic (or at the very least somewhat sexual in nature) dreams in his friends' company.

Just my 2 cents..

I think Jack isn't necessarily less physical - he's actually a very tactile man and experience tells me they are often the ones who are more sensual in intimate situations - but it's a good point that as Jonah he's more open about it. It's just another thing that illustrates what I said above; that it's the nature of their relationship with each other that makes it difficult for him to be that open about his thoughts.

I've always believed that they had been intimate in some way during this episode. Most likely, though, just kissing and such. I definitely think that it came before (or at least, started) the "feeling feelings" scene.

Great discussion everyone! I don't think I really have anything to add, except to say that I love this episode too, for all the reasons you have enumerated, and on the intimacy question, I think there was kissing but I agree they probably didn't go any much further because, as Jenn says, I'm not sure they would have been able to carry on as before quite as easily (!) if they had. But I agree that if there was any occasion when they did, then it would have been here.

Oh the did they cross the line? debate? As much as I love the idea that they might have been physically intimate here, I am largely in the camp that even kissing would have had a fairly devastating consequence to their ability to return to a purely professional relationship so I think, while it's the one episode I could imagine it happening, I don't think it did. That's not to say I am not hugely grateful for the hundreds of fanfics it spawned that explores this.

Oh and that brings me on to my one comment to add to the discussion.

While I agree with all the loving there is of this relationship... there's a little part of me that finds it THE most frustrating episode to watch. Mostly because I feel this is such a great story - multi layered, thoughtful, intense - and there's so much missing. Not just in the way Sam/Thera and Jack/Jonah's relationship develops but also in the whole thing. I sometimes feel like I'm watching in some kind of fast forward whole chunks I am missing out on because they go past so fast. It really needed to be a two parter. Had it been so it could have and would have been as epic (almost) as Lost City. OK maybe not quite but certainly one of those episodes everyone ranks somewhere in their top ten.
The episode suffers because of it. They shy away just short of tackling anything difficult. So we're left with Brenna being shot but surviving (and not even really bleeding), Teal'c being OK depsite nearly dying, Daniel and Jack's anatgonism as Jonah and Karlin not really explored fully... and of course Jack and Sam's developing feelings and new found openess with each falls frustratingly short of actually causing any significant shift in their relationship once they return to reality. I think it's either in the commentary or in an interviews/review somewhere but someone did say it lacked an emotional heart and that is a comment that really strikes a chord with me because that's exactly how I feel.
But even on a less emotionally focussed area, I would love to have seen more peril for them; for their revelations of who they really are and subsequent escape / return to the SGC to have been a bit more of a struggle - I can't imagine just having Calder hostage allowed them all to march up to the gate and demand to go home and everyone stepping aside without there being some kind of fight?

Not that I think it was a terrible episode - far from it; I loved it! I just wish there'd been more of it.

However, as I said before, thus was spawned hundreds of fanfics, most of which are incredibly enjoyable to read so I can take heart in those instead.

[sg-1fanintn]

Just dropping by with an invitation to an upcoming forum event...in spoilers for those who may not be interested...

Spoiler:

Hope to see you there!!!

[Gatetrixer]

While I love this episode, the character of Brenna has always been somewhat of a jarring note to me. Every time I watch it seems to me like the actor is reading her lines and trying to inject emotions into them but failing. Now maybe the character of Brenna is, in a manner of speaking, reading her lines, trying to talk herself into being someone she really isn't, that is, a person who would think it was all right to do what Calder orders. But that doesn't make me like her acting.

Second, when Sam says "there are some things I like about this place" I usually think it's too soon for her to realize that there are "other places" for sure. It seems to me to go from "well, maybe, just maybe we haven't always been here" to Sam talking about "this place." Not a big quibble, I love that scene. Would have loved it even more if Jack had moved his arm a little, put it a bit around Sam, can't have everything in a shippy episode. Like a kiss.

Although the discussion of The First Ones is long gone, I've always wondered, in light of fanfics' love of camping scenes (with tents yet) if there are any other episodes that show over night camping scenes, besides this episode , that I can't remember. In PL Jack and Maybourne are forced to camp out, but that doesn't count.

[hedwig]

Although the discussion of The First Ones is long gone, I've always wondered, in light of fanfics' love of camping scenes (with tents yet) if there are any other episodes that show over night camping scenes, besides this episode , that I can't remember. In PL Jack and Maybourne are forced to camp out, but that doesn't count.

The only one that comes immediately to mind is "First Commandment" where SG1 has set up camp for the night. In "Revisions" they stayed overnight in the homes of townspeople (but that wasn't camping). Occasionally there might have been mention of camping overnight on another planet, plus in Season 1 at least they often seemed to have really big packs that they took with them on missions.

[UhSir]

Although the discussion of The First Ones is long gone, I've always wondered, in light of fanfics' love of camping scenes (with tents yet) if there are any other episodes that show over night camping scenes, besides this episode , that I can't remember. In PL Jack and Maybourne are forced to camp out, but that doesn't count.

Emancipation?

[Gatetrixer]

Emancipation?

Hey, yes, they ride horseback to rescue Sam from Turghan and seems like they camp overnight, IIRC. And as Hedwig said they set up camp in First Commandment. But no tents, ever, it seems. First Commandment is probably the only ep then with the entire SG-1, and only them, camping.