Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[slurredspeech]

Heh, the voice thing came across the same way as the recorder did for me, a Tollan equivalent of keeping a picture of Sam or something along those lines. He clearly never meant for her to hear it and had accepted Sam's letdown in Pretense since he never again brought up his feelings for her, so I didn't get a creepy vibe from either.

I can get that (altough my reaction when I first saw that episode was along the lines of o_O. O_O! DUDE! So, 'aloof' is not really your shtick, eh?)

So, yeah. I can get the cultural differences thing. Still. Personally, I wouldn't feel all that comfortable walking into an apartment of a guy I see every - what, year or so? - to find pictures of me all over his apartement (if we're going to go with the photograph analogy, which I think is pretty good). You know?

This is just me, of course. I haven't had a chance to watch the episode recently, but I don't remember Sam being all that comfortable with it. Do correct me if I'm wrong. Like I said, it's been awhile, plus I have a memory of an elderly possum.

[Rachel500]

Heh, the voice thing came across the same way as the recorder did for me, a Tollan equivalent of keeping a picture of Sam or something along those lines. He clearly never meant for her to hear it and had accepted Sam's letdown in Pretense since he never again brought up his feelings for her, so I didn't get a creepy vibe from either. Of course, I really enjoyed Sam's interactions and friendships with Narim (and Martouf) so I'm kinda biased in their favor.

See this is why I love this forum because it does just sometimes get me to stop and go 'HUH. I never thought about it like that.'

It has never ever occured to me the house voice-over thing from a Tollan perspective could just be a 'photo' reminder. (EDIT: and I'm still not sure I'm convinced it is...but it is an interesting take.)

Even so. I think my reaction would be Sam's: how do we get the thing turned off?

It's crazy really because without that beat, I wouldn't have necessarily placed the emotional recorder thing in 'icky' land, and kept it in 'sweet if a little pushy.'

Because I do think Narim could have made Sam a great friend if they'd dropped the hints he still fancied her/loved her (and obviously not killed off the Tollan). It would have been great for them to have gone back to Tollana for instance and Narim had a girl or boyfriend.

And, oh, can I just say that Pretense is the second episode in a row where Teal'c gets to save the day. I love that.

[hedwig]

I can get that (altough my reaction when I first saw that episode was along the lines of o_O. O_O! DUDE! So, 'aloof' is not really your shtick, eh?)

So, yeah. I can get the cultural differences thing. Still. Personally, I wouldn't feel all that comfortable walking into an apartment of a guy I see every - what, year or so? - to find pictures of me all over his apartement (if we're going to go with the photograph analogy, which I think is pretty good). You know?

This is just me, of course. I haven't had a chance to watch the episode recently, but I don't remember Sam being all that comfortable with it. Do correct me if I'm wrong. Like I said, it's been awhile, plus I have a memory of an elderly possum.

Yes. Sam was uncomfortable hearing her own voice. When it asked if it could provide any refreshments (or some such thing), she got really uncomfortable, and said something like "Okay ... can you turn that thing off???" Narim just smiled, and turned it off.

I had the feeling she was thinking to herself "okay, enough of this ridiculous nonsense ... "

[JenniferJF]

Because I do think Narim could have made Sam a great friend if they'd dropped the hints he still fancied her/loved her (and not killing off the Tollan). It would have been great for them to have gone back to Tollana for instance and Narim had a girl or boyfriend.

I actually agree with this for both Narim and Martouf - that they would have made great friends if they would have stopped trying to be more. In fact, by D&C, I found Martouf's relationship with Sam nice because I think he had done that. Even with Lantash in Last Stand, I never get that he (Lantash) expects Sam to reciprocate the feelings, he's just letting her know. And, in fact, in Ripple Effect I think we see how that might have worked out once they both know - outside of Jolinar - they really don't have that kind of relationship and it really is just a friendship remaining. And it's nice. IMHO, of course.

[Nynaeve506]

I actually agree with this for both Narim and Martouf - that they would have made great friends if they would have stopped trying to be more. In fact, by D&C, I found Martouf's relationship with Sam nice because I think he had done that. Even with Lantash in Last Stand, I never get that he (Lantash) expects Sam to reciprocate the feelings, he's just letting her know. And, in fact, in Ripple Effect I think we see how that might have worked out once they both know - outside of Jolinar - they really don't have that kind of relationship and it really is just a friendship remaining. And it's nice. IMHO, of course.

Well, Marty was mourning his 100 year old relationship - so I can sort of forgive him for being so pushy with Sam. I remember reading how when a young bride loses her husband people go on and on, but when an older woman loses her husband it's seen as sad, but it's not weighed upon as heavy - and yet it's the older woman who has in a way lost more because she lost someone that she shared the last fifty years of her life with. When I put it in that perspective for Martouf, he doesn't come off as creepy or kind of desperate. (Hey you look like my dead girlfriend!)

Narim... well, I'm sorry but he just comes across as sort of that guy that lives in his mother's basement that has a fantasy in his head. Maybe he was the awkward boy growing up and had a hard time connecting to women and then along comes Sam who's smart, funny, and pretty and he just can't help himself. Just for the record, the Tollan seem sorta boring if you ask me. Oh look we built a stargate *yawn* It's so CLEAN and PRETTY and we're SO PERFECT :: falls over :: And I think our trade talks with them should include some denim...

I'm being snarky obviously but I think in the first episode Sam was sort of enamored with the novelty of it all but by the time she meets Narim a second time, she's got some experience under her belt... she's not as "innocent" as she was at the beginning - a maturity (did someone say that, I've been reading a lot today...)

[EvenstarSRV]

I can get that (altough my reaction when I first saw that episode was along the lines of o_O. O_O! DUDE! So, 'aloof' is not really your shtick, eh?)

So, yeah. I can get the cultural differences thing. Still. Personally, I wouldn't feel all that comfortable walking into an apartment of a guy I see every - what, year or so? - to find pictures of me all over his apartement (if we're going to go with the photograph analogy, which I think is pretty good). You know?

This is just me, of course. I haven't had a chance to watch the episode recently, but I don't remember Sam being all that comfortable with it. Do correct me if I'm wrong. Like I said, it's been awhile, plus I have a memory of an elderly possum.

No, Sam wasn't really comfortable with it, but then, I don't think Narim ever intended her to hear that recording, IIRC, SG-1 suddenly visited Tollana because of Omac's death. So to continue the photo analogy, it's rather like unexpectedly visiting a friend after a long while and coming across a picture of yourself on the mantle. It's a little awkward, but then the friend puts it away when you ask about it and you continue on as friends without bringing it, or any potential romantic feelings, up again.

To me, Narim was obviously enamored with Sam since Enigma, but I think he accepts her decision when she essentially turns him down in Pretense. He keeps her voice recording as a reminder of her, but he doesn't continue to pursue her romantically at all. In Between Two Fires, he's caught up in solving the mystery of Omac's death and forgets that he has that recording, which leads to the awkward moment with Sam. But then Narim apologizes, both of them kinda laugh it off and get back to work and he never brings up his feelings for her after that.

See this is why I love this forum because it does just sometimes get me to stop and go 'HUH. I never thought about it like that.'

It has never ever occured to me the house voice-over thing from a Tollan perspective could just be a 'photo' reminder. (EDIT: and I'm still not sure I'm convinced it is...but it is an interesting take.)

Even so. I think my reaction would be Sam's: how do we get the thing turned off?

It's crazy really because without that beat, I wouldn't have necessarily placed the emotional recorder thing in 'icky' land, and kept it in 'sweet if a little pushy.'

Because I do think Narim could have made Sam a great friend if they'd dropped the hints he still fancied her/loved her (and obviously not killed off the Tollan). It would have been great for them to have gone back to Tollana for instance and Narim had a girl or boyfriend.

And, oh, can I just say that Pretense is the second episode in a row where Teal'c gets to save the day. I love that.

I guess the way I see it, Narim may have still fancied Sam in Between Two Fires, but he never overtly pursued those feelings like he started to in Pretense. Except for that brief awkward moment with the recording, his behavior after Sam let him down in Pretense was that of a friend and ally, no romantic connotations at all IMO.

I actually agree with this for both Narim and Martouf - that they would have made great friends if they would have stopped trying to be more. In fact, by D&C, I found Martouf's relationship with Sam nice because I think he had done that. Even with Lantash in Last Stand, I never get that he (Lantash) expects Sam to reciprocate the feelings, he's just letting her know. And, in fact, in Ripple Effect I think we see how that might have worked out once they both know - outside of Jolinar - they really don't have that kind of relationship and it really is just a friendship remaining. And it's nice. IMHO, of course.

And to me, I think both of them did stop trying to be more after they realized Sam didn't reciprocate their feelings, Narim in Pretense and Martouf I would say started somewhere between Serpent's Song and Jolinar's Memories and definitely got there by D&C. And like you said, Lantesh just wanted to give Sam some closure re Martouf, not push any feelings on to her.

I guess in essence, the difference for me with these guys comes down to not that they had romantic feelings for Sam, but whether or not they acted on those feelings. And to me, once it was clear Sam didn't return their feelings, both of them backed off and settled for friendship. Just MHO, as a non-shipper.

[slurredspeech]

No, Sam wasn't really comfortable with it, but then, I don't think Narim ever intended her to hear that recording, IIRC, SG-1 suddenly visited Tollana because of Omac's death.

...

To me, Narim was obviously enamored with Sam since Enigma, but I think he accepts her decision when she essentially turns him down in Pretense. He keeps her voice recording as a reminder of her, but he doesn't continue to pursue her romantically at all.

Very true and I don't disagree that he never intended her to hear it. I didn't see it as him trying to push her into, well anything, there either.

Just the fact that him having the recording really wasn't meant to be interpreted by us as him having friends-and-nothing-more feelings (because we all know that no male alien can under no circumstances have merely friendly feelings for our Carter; oh TPTB *shakes head amusedly*) which paints a rather peculiar picture of Narim. I mean, I know it's Carter and she's played by AT who -- GUH, but Narim, buddy; no pretty, soft-spoken women on Tollana? The whole pining for years thing (secretly or not so much) just makes him seem a bit... I dunno, peculiar.

And I'm sure it being a recording (and not a photo) didn't help my impression much.

And to me, I think both of them did stop trying to be more after they realized Sam didn't reciprocate their feelings, Narim in Pretense and Martouf I would say started somewhere between Serpent's Song and Jolinar's Memories and definitely got there by D&C.

I guess in essence, the difference for me with these guys comes down to not that they had romantic feelings for Sam, but whether or not they acted on those feelings. And to me, once it was clear Sam didn't return their feelings, both of them backed off and settled for friendship. Just MHO, as a non-shipper.

Being a shipper myself, I never saw either of them as any kind of - threat? Competition? Nor do I think they were overtly pushing Sam into anything she didn't want. Okay, so Marty may have been a bit overwhelming in his beginnings, but then that was a pretty unique situation there. (And, as a shipper, I always like to make it clear that my occasional dislike of them and their actions has absolutely nothing to do with the fact I'd have liked seeing Jack give Sam his yoyo, for better or for worse).

The thing is - and I think it was you who said it earlier? - we didn't see as much of those two guys. So, while I agree that, say, Martouf of JM/TDYK and Martouf of D&C are two different animals with different approach to Sam, we don't get to see that transition until it's already happened, and have to fill in the holes for ourselves as to explain the change. Like, as I was watching D&C for the first time *reminiscents fondly* I remember thinking 'Ah! Okay, so he's settled for friends only now'. Basically, I was going into the episode with the impression of Marty from the episode he was previously in, much like with Narim and Pretense.

Does that make any bit of sense?

[Rachel500]

<snip>

I guess the way I see it, Narim may have still fancied Sam in Between Two Fires, but he never overtly pursued those feelings like he started to in Pretense. Except for that brief awkward moment with the recording, his behavior after Sam let him down in Pretense was that of a friend and ally, no romantic connotations at all IMO.

And to me, I think both of them did stop trying to be more after they realized Sam didn't reciprocate their feelings, Narim in Pretense and Martouf I would say started somewhere between Serpent's Song and Jolinar's Memories and definitely got there by D&C. And like you said, Lantesh just wanted to give Sam some closure re Martouf, not push any feelings on to her.

I guess in essence, the difference for me with these guys comes down to not that they had romantic feelings for Sam, but whether or not they acted on those feelings. And to me, once it was clear Sam didn't return their feelings, both of them backed off and settled for friendship. Just MHO, as a non-shipper.

<snip>I mean, I know it's Carter and she's played by AT who -- GUH, but Narim, buddy; no pretty, soft-spoken women on Tollana? The whole pining for years thing (secretly or not so much) just makes him seem a bit... I dunno, peculiar.

And I'm sure it being a recording (and not a photo) didn't help my impression much.

Being a shipper myself, I never saw either of them as any kind of - threat? Competition? Nor do I think they were overtly pushing Sam into anything she didn't want. Okay, so Marty may have been a bit overwhelming in his beginnings, but then that was a pretty unique situation there. (And, as a shipper, I always like to make it clear that my occasional dislike of them and their actions has absolutely nothing to do with the fact I'd have liked seeing Jack give Sam his yoyo, for better or for worse).

The thing is - and I think it was you who said it earlier? - we didn't see as much of those two guys. So, while I agree that, say, Martouf of JM/TDYK and Martouf of D&C are two different animals with different approach to Sam, we don't get to see that transition until it's already happened, and have to fill in the holes for ourselves as to explain the change. Like, as I was watching D&C for the first time *reminiscents fondly* I remember thinking 'Ah! Okay, so he's settled for friends only now'. Basically, I was going into the episode with the impression of Marty from the episode he was previously in, much like with Narim and Pretense.

Does that make any bit of sense?

I would agree that Narim didn't *pursue* Sam beyond her 'it's not you, it's me' speech in Pretense and he had no expectation that she would hear the recording but the recording does seem to indicate to me as slurredspeech said that he was pining for her on some level. I think even if you use the cultural reference of a photo, the fact that it was so prominently displayed and part of his life on a day to day basis, that he hadn't found someone else's voice to replace hers, does make it seem like he's still harbouring feelings for her even if he's accepted she doesn't feel the same way.

In Pretense, I can appreciate that Narim still harbours a 'what if?' about Sam; has maybe even idolised her in absentia given the part she played in saving him and is hopeful that in renewing their acquaintance, they might continue to explore the very embryonic relationship they had in Enigma. But by Between Two Fires, I would have preferred for them to have shown him moving on, having a relationship with someone else.

Mini-ficlet...

Spoiler:

Sam felt a little awkward as Narim ushered her and Teal'c over the threshold of his home. 'You live alone?'

Narim looked a little embarrassed; a red flush streaking each cheekbone. 'Actually no. My partner Callia is away on business in our Southern continent right now.'

Sam smiled genuinely pleased at the news Narim had someone in his life. 'Callia, huh?'

'Yes. Omarc introduced us.' Narim gestured for them to enter the living area and showed Sam the computer console. A warm female voice drifted out to question them.

Sam's lips curved upward again. 'Callia?' She guessed.

Narim nodded happily.

Martouf, on the other hand...I do think Martouf by D&C is aware that Sam doesn't feel the same way about him as Jolinar felt. But I do think by then he (or rather Lantash IMO given it is Lantash in Last Stand who tells her he loved her) has fallen for Sam as herself (as he says he's come to care about her for her and Lantash later wishes Sam to know he loved her). And while I don't think Martouf/Lantash in D&C had any expectation of anything happening with Sam right at that moment or any time soon, I think he still had hope of 'one day' that Sam might come to feel the same way about him.

So I don't see Martouf actively pursuing her but I do see him still being actively interested whereas I actually can concede that Narim, despite his pining/harbouring feelings vibe, actually does seem to have realised he has no hope of it being more than friendship.

[Zoser]

Heh, the voice thing came across the same way as the recorder did for me, a Tollan equivalent of keeping a picture of Sam or something along those lines. He clearly never meant for her to hear it and had accepted Sam's letdown in Pretense since he never again brought up his feelings for her, so I didn't get a creepy vibe from either. Of course, I really enjoyed Sam's interactions and friendships with Narim (and Martouf) so I'm kinda biased in their favor.

It was sweet for Narim and the Tollan culture but creepy for us Tauri.

[Zoser]

Okay, so Marty may have been a bit overwhelming in his beginnings, but then that was a pretty unique situation there. (And, as a shipper, I always like to make it clear that my occasional dislike of them and their actions has absolutely nothing to do with the fact I'd have liked seeing Jack give Sam his yoyo, for better or for worse).

Does that make any bit of sense?

Unfortunately for my filthy mind it did.

[Zoser]

I would agree that Narim didn't *pursue* Sam beyond her 'it's not you, it's me' speech in Pretense and he had no expectation that she would hear the recording but the recording does seem to indicate to me as slurredspeech said that he was pining for her on some level. I think even if you use the cultural reference of a photo, the fact that it was so prominently displayed and part of his life on a day to day basis, that he hadn't found someone else's voice to replace hers, does make it seem like he's still harbouring feelings for her even if he's accepted she doesn't feel the same way.

In Pretense, I can appreciate that Narim still harbours a 'what if?' about Sam; has maybe even idolised her in absentia given the part she played in saving him and is hopeful that in renewing their acquaintance, they might continue to explore the very embryonic relationship they had in Enigma. But by Between Two Fires, I would have preferred for them to have shown him moving on, having a relationship with someone else.

Mini-ficlet...

Spoiler:

Sam felt a little awkward as Narim ushered her and Teal'c over the threshold of his home. 'You live alone?'

Narim looked a little embarrassed; a red flush streaking each cheekbone. 'Actually no. My partner Callia is away on business in our Southern continent right now.'

Sam smiled genuinely pleased at the news Narim had someone in his life. 'Callia, huh?'

'Yes. Omarc introduced us.' Narim gestured for them to enter the living area and showed Sam the computer console. A warm female voice drifted out to question them.

Sam's lips curved upward again. 'Callia?' She guessed.

Narim nodded happily.

Martouf, on the other hand...I do think Martouf by D&C is aware that Sam doesn't feel the same way about him as Jolinar felt. But I do think by then he (or rather Lantash IMO given it is Lantash in Last Stand who tells her he loved her) has fallen for Sam as herself (as he says he's come to care about her for her and Lantash later wishes Sam to know he loved her). And while I don't think Martouf/Lantash in D&C had any expectation of anything happening with Sam right at that moment or any time soon, I think he still had hope of 'one day' that Sam might come to feel the same way about him.

So I don't see Martouf actively pursuing her but I do see him still being actively interested whereas I actually can concede that Narim, despite his pining/harbouring feelings vibe, actually does seem to have realised he has no hope of it being more than friendship.

I thought the symbiote and the host felt as one - although that doesn't explain Anise/Freya

[slurredspeech]

Unfortunately for my filthy mind it did.

Hee. Coincidentally that's exactly how I meant it.

[hedwig]

My favorite line in this episode is when Sam says to Lya: "That's a mighty fine line you didn't cross, there." And Lya agrees.

[Rachel500]

I thought the symbiote and the host felt as one - although that doesn't explain Anise/Freya

It is something that they kind of contradict in canon. Martouf tells Sam they love as one in The Tok'ra but it's clear in D&C that Anise and Freya have some disagreement who they want.

I tend to think what happens is that the host & symbiote meet someone. The two of them begin with their own impressions and attractions. This is effectively where Anise and Freya were in the equation; both had an attraction for one of the SG1 boys.

If the symbiote had no strong objections, the host in general was allowed to proceed given the physicality aspect of love. If the host had no strong objections and no interests of her/his own, they usually allowed the symbiote to explore the relationship.

As feelings developed and grew and either the host or the symbiote fell in love, then the other couldn't help but be affected/influenced by the strength of emotions. And over time, they would come to love as one as Martouf said. This is effectively where Martouf and Jolinar were in their relationship.

And just to somewhat be on topic here, , I've always believed that it was Jack's love for Sam that was why Kanan was so influenced to return for Shallan.

[josiane]

Anyway, there’s some nice closure with Narim and Sam in this episode, (well, at least there’s closure for Sam). Personally, I liked Narim. Although, I do find Sam’s explanation a little bit off. I understand she might not be able to tell what her true feelings are for Martouf, but how would this affect her feelings for Narim? And what about her feelings for Jack? Does she suspect there’s some generic “love” switch that’s been flipped inside her head? I suppose it doesn’t have to make sense if she’s just using it as an excuse to let Narim down gently.

In some ways I think there are parallels between Pete and Narim. In both cases, she seems to enjoy the attention and the idea of having a relationship, but here she has time to reflect and figures out what’s right for her. And Narim seems more attuned to what she might be thinking. It also occurred to me that all of the aliens (Narim, Martouf, Fifth and Orlin) use some kind of alien influence to try to manipulate her feelings. Does this somehow make her wonder whether what she feels for Jack is the real deal? I would think it would have the opposite effect, but perhaps it just leaves her confused about these things.

This is the main problem I have with all Sam's alien suitors - they push on her feelings, and try to make her feel what they feel. But I think the contrast with Jack in that respect is not actually that inadvertent - all these guys are so completely opposite to the way Jack is with Sam that I think it's unlikely to have caused her any confusion. If anything though I think maybe she might have the odd frustrated thought that there's all these aliens drooling at her feet and Jack shows almost nothing!

Yes. Sam was uncomfortable hearing her own voice. When it asked if it could provide any refreshments (or some such thing), she got really uncomfortable, and said something like "Okay ... can you turn that thing off???" Narim just smiled, and turned it off.

I had the feeling she was thinking to herself "okay, enough of this ridiculous nonsense ... "

That was the moment that really creeped me out too - somehow it made it seem like Sam was being put in a servile position that just has all sorts of icky connotations