Gateworld Virtual Fleet 4.0 - Discussion thread

[Crazy Tom]

Already thought of that. So little faith....

The missiles would stand down and return to the ship if the foe left. Or, relocate the target when it jumped back. Although I should specify that they would only FIRE EVERYTHING when confronted with an unknown foe. If dealing with a known element or limited supplies they are more conservative.

Besides, wouldent using a hyperdrive like that be a little...strenuous on the ship in question?

Minimal energy weapons with pretty much same amount of power generation means good shields. Wouldent it?

Really, and where pray tell would said missiles get all that deltaV from? Unless they're miniature spacecraft, then it'll be impractical to retrieve them. If you want them to be able to alter their vector that significantly, you should put them on a missile bus(autonomous bomber?).

As to the hyperdrive, it depends on the ship in question and what the engineers who built it were thinking. A military ship should be able to do it if it decided to unload it's shield capacitors into the hyper-drive. Mind you, you only really need to jump once if the missiles are being fired from far enough away. Wait for a large fraction of their total number to be in flight, then jump an AU. Even with missile buses, the only way they'll catch you now is if they also have hyper-drive.

[Gormagon]

Mhm. Houjin missiles are capable of sustained flight for quite sometime, given the energy cell storage capacity of the Stargate universe.

Would it be possible for a fusion missile to use its own T.D mix as emergency fuel? Or a naquadah missile to be micro fusion driven?

Although they have an emergency independent guidance system, its the firing Destroyer that actually guides them. If I can upload my schematic of the ship you will see the missile control arrays.

the missiles are being fired from far enough away.

Well that would give the foe time to initiate counter measures, I accept that but what if the Houjin only fired 32-48 missiles? Even just 24 would be a devastating barrage and they would have plenty of ammo left.

unload it's shield capacitors into the hyper-drive

. The foe would be expending a lot energy well all the Houjin Destroyer is doing is sitting there firing missiles. Then if the shields are down/weak, plasma lances.



However, in close up combat? No time to power up f.t.l>? Its clobbering time.
Maby I should put the gunboat support vessel back in my notebook. It has minimal missile tubes with a whole bunch of plasma lances.

[thekillman]

just a note:

this is all part of the design process. they're things you either account for, or take for granted. ultimately, it's a matter of reaction and adaption. given that the Houjin have little galactic experience, it's a very viable possibility that their entire battle system is completely ineffective against existing fleets.

[Gormagon]

just a note:

this is all part of the design process. they're things you either account for, or take for granted. ultimately, it's a matter of reaction and adaption. given that the Houjin have little galactic experience, it's a very viable possibility that their entire battle system is completely ineffective against existing fleets.

Its possible that their are races that would be almost immune to their technology yes. Who says Tka weapons would effect Goa'uld shields then?

Their tactics and weapons were developed from civil war and a war with an independent offshoot of their own race. Missiles and anti missile defenses(and through that, anti fighter.) are their primaries. however, like all Humans, they are capable of adaptation.

Oooh, missiles that break up into smaller, chaff like missiles. 96 big missiles deploy into 960 smaller warheads. To get past conventional missile defenses or make it impossible to use sublight maneuvers to escape the wall of incoming pain. Ah ha, and small...bouys I guess you could call them or maby decoy missiles that just make a buttload of electronic noise to distract enemy missiles.

Oh btw Tom, I thought killman had you involuntarily shipped to the laughing academy.

[thekillman]

Who says Tka weapons would effect Goa'uld shields then

Tom.

the Tka have been here some time, ahead of the Shrin'Yar. They're -sort of- Xenophobe, over-concerned aliens that take their time to do stuff.

they're like the Aschen in that regard, except an order of magnitude worse.

however, like all Humans, they are capable of adaptation.

It's not a human exclusive trait. please don't copy TPTB in that regard. Shadow of the Light shows an LA that -as you would expect from such an organization- has actual, working brains. it doesn't have to be perfect. it might seem a more infallible LA, but that's because i refuse to go down to the lowest of goons. even the "goon" types in my stories are the more intelligent, because they're on the more difficult missions.

the real goons do boring work. like basic guard duty, assaulting bases without a real objective (other than destroying/disrupting the operations of that base), manning the ships, etc.

Oooh, missiles that break up into smaller, chaff like missiles. 96 big missiles deploy into 960 smaller warheads.

uhm.. that's MIRV. or Swarm, like i said. MIRV= multiple independant re-entry vehicles. there's not really place for the "R" in MIRV. anyway, it's a missile that shoots smaller missiles.

To get past conventional missile defenses or make it impossible to use sublight maneuvers to escape the wall of incoming pain

the first thing that comes to mind is a micro-nuke defense system.

anyway, it comes down to how desperate you are. i think it's not a particular effective system against a Tau'ri ship (we still fit them with railguns, and a slug storm WILL defeat that). perhaps against the LA (they do fit their ships with rapid-fire plasma CIWS).


any system has it's weakness. for MIRV's, it's shooting the mother-missile.

Oh btw Tom, I thought killman had you involuntarily shipped to the laughing academy.

huh?


anyway, my point is: think two steps ahead in stead of 1. you have a main system. what if that fails? building a fleet around a single concept CAN be a good idea, if you have a good idea of what your enemy can do. but for a race venturing out into the galaxy, i think it's the worst idea conceivable.

If i were lead engineer, the first thing i'd do is design a jack-of-all-trades ship. after all, you don't know who's out there, and what they can do. i'd fit it with long-term-exploration systems (IE, advanced life support, gyms, extensive living areas), make it mildly armed (you don't want to greet a potential ally/enemy with your main warship), equipped with varied weaponry.


then, i'd make a handful of base designs. IE, a drone focus, missile focus, plasma focus, etc. preferably using largely the same mother structure. once your scouts discover what's effective and what not, finish the designs and start churning them out. since, like, 70% of the design was already known, you could already modify manufacturing stations.

[Gormagon]

uhm.. that's MIRV. or Swarm, like i said. MIRV= multiple independant re-entry vehicles. there's not really place for the "R" in MIRV. anyway, it's a missile that shoots smaller missiles.

Oh yeah forgot the acronym for them.

anyway, it comes down to how desperate you are. i think it's not a particular effective system against a Tau'ri ship (we still fit them with railguns, and a slug storm WILL defeat that). perhaps against the LA (they do fit their ships with rapid-fire plasma CIWS).

Or against a swarm of fighters or small vessels. However it was just a thought.

any system has it's weakness. for MIRV's, it's shooting the mother-missile.

Mhm.

huh?

Insane asylum.

anyway, my point is: think two steps ahead in stead of 1. you have a main system. what if that fails? building a fleet around a single concept CAN be a good idea, if you have a good idea of what your enemy can do. but for a race venturing out into the galaxy, i think it's the worst idea conceivable.

K.

If i were lead engineer, the first thing i'd do is design a jack-of-all-trades ship. after all, you don't know who's out there, and what they can do. i'd fit it with long-term-exploration systems (IE, advanced life support, gyms, extensive living areas), make it mildly armed (you don't want to greet a potential ally/enemy with your main warship), equipped with varied weaponry.

Yup. I agree. I was just describing a Houjin Destroyer.

then, i'd make a handful of base designs. IE, a drone focus, missile focus, plasma focus, etc. preferably using largely the same mother structure. once your scouts discover what's effective and what not, finish the designs and start churning them out. since, like, 70% of the design was already known, you could already modify manufacturing stations.

Houjin hull design varies very little in larger ships, they use a basic functional hull shape. The base hulls could readily be adjusted for different purposes. Scout, small hull, then the Destroyer- anti capital ship/mid sized missile launching ship, Gunboat- Fire support, energy weapons and carrier are all based on the same hull. And then the base ship. The base ship is a larger hull.

[blackluster]

reminds me of Syndicate. they have "swarm" missile launchers. a handheld rifle that shoots a small canister. canister explodes and launches missiles a the locked target.

also, it features the Gauss rifle, the most awesome rifle i've ever seen. it fires guided bullets. yes, guided bullets!


i must note : missile attacks can be very broad-ranged. you can use mixed volleys, fire a sheer overwhelming burst of micromissiles, use MIRVs, or pull off a No Mans Land missile volley.

ultimately, it comes down to mix and match.

My inspiration for the Taqir missiles actually comes from Macross, though I can see how calling them 'micro-missiles' is maybe misleading, since I don't really mean to imply that the Taqir have mastered miniaturization to that extent.

I'm actually developing it as a spiritual progression of Common Anti-Air Modular Missiles (CAMM) which is supposed to equip next gen NATO warships and aircraft. The missiles are small by today's standards with comparable yields but deployed in saturation attacks similar to Russian anti-ship philosophy. There should not really be a case where they launch a mass of them. Just enough to deal with the threat in a saturation style attack.

The weapon goes with a task group deployment that would see it used in a reactive zone defense like Sea Darts missiles are incorporated into the Aegis system on Nato destroyers.

As for anti ship, I'm currently leaning towards field emitting missiles. Nothing close to naquadah enriched yield but hopefully partially breaching shields might make up for that somewhat. It would certainly make space battles a very close affair.

[Crazy Tom]

Tom.

the Tka have been here some time, ahead of the Shrin'Yar. They're -sort of- Xenophobe, over-concerned aliens that take their time to do stuff.

they're like the Aschen in that regard, except an order of magnitude worse.

What he said, through more 'isolationist' than 'xenophobe'. I would go so far as to say 'lazy'. Living in VR has its downsides.

huh?

No idea either.

[Gormagon]

Oh yeah forgot the acronym for them.




Or against a swarm of fighters or small vessels. However it was just a thought.


Mhm.





Insane asylum.


K.

Yup. I agree. I was just describing a Houjin Destroyer.



Houjin hull design varies very little in larger ships, they use a basic functional hull shape. The base hulls could readily be adjusted for different purposes. Scout, small hull, then the Destroyer- anti capital ship/mid sized missile launching ship, Gunboat- Fire support, energy weapons and carrier are all based on the same hull. And then the base ship. The base ship is a larger hull.

In case Tom/Black missed it.

[Crazy Tom]

Well, what I really want to ask is: why micromissiles? I know your arguments about overwhelming point defense, but have a gander at this.

Read the comments too.

Now, he does go on in the next two parts in the series to point out that kinetics are economically more favorable, but that's in a hard SF setting. In SG the high deltaV and Isp values of star-ships blow that equation right back in energy weapons' favor.

[Gormagon]

Hmm. I think I see your point but I just skimmed. Was it lasers as point defense? With capabilities like that id say you would have to armor or shield your missiles.

[thekillman]

Well, what I really want to ask is: why micromissiles?

smaller means more carrying capacity, means better CIWS breach capacity. it also means less damage.


i think it kind of depends on what the enemy uses. if the enemy has excellent PD, i wouldn't use missiles.

anyway, i'd dump some electronic missiles and micromissiles in along with the warheads. and shower the enemy with DEW's.

[StargateWatcher]

Was that mostly planning or all story for it? anyhow as to my question of an Asian (Chinese/Taiwanese) SG team?

Awinita, I while ago I quoted your post, replied, and recall clicking the 'submit reply' post. I could've sworn the system told me that I'd succesffuly posted. But when I went back to look for my reponse and your reponse to my response, I couldn't find it. It may be that a lot more people posted afterwards, and so each of us simply overlooked the positioning of our posts lol. So I apologize if I'm reposting your post and one similar to an earlier one of min as well!

Anyway, I think it's a great idea, but I think realistically for that to occur two events would have to happen first.

First, I think that the Taiwan Straits Crisis would have to be resolved peacefully. Ever since 1949, despite both governments recently making friendlier overtures to each other, in both countries there still exists ill will and mistrust which arises because of this issue. When my parents attended school in Taiwan in the 1950s to 1960s, they had to sing every morning a song which included the line "We will retake the mainland!" I dunno what schoolchildren in China had to do in the same era, but I imagine they probably had to participate in simialar CCP-sponsored indoctrination.

I'm going to make a second point that I hope you won't take offense at. I realize that at the beginning I might sound very arrogant in stating my opinion, but please read all the way to the end first.

Second, I think that China needs to become a democracy. (I'm not saying this right now for the specific sake of expressing my favorite form of government!) And I think that China shouldn't just copy a Taiwan-style or a US-style democracy. I think China would do best to develop a homegrown model of democracy. In fact, some authors on the subject have even suggested China will even develop its own democratic practices that no coutnry in the world has ever thought up of before. I think so because currently, despite the Taiwanese democratic system recently (very young but very strong for a while) regressing unfortunately into a system with quasi-authoritarian aspects (like Chen Shui Bian appointing his relatives to head government ministries--NEPOTISM!, said relatives stealing government money, Ma Ying-Jeou devising the CEFA treaty w/o consulting the Legislative Yuan or answering due questions, M.Y.J.ordering of riot police to attack peaceful protestors), Taiwanese people are afraid of any more regressing happening, especially concerning human/civil rights. They're afraid, and some US senators are as well (sidenote, and it's not that the US dictates Taiwan's politics nowadays lol), that moving into a mutual economic system with China will lead to Taiwan's current human rights laws worsening to a point where they become dangerously close to China's current human/civil rights. I think the Taiwanese government doesn't have the ability to arrange for military treaties with China such as joint Stargate teams without the populace's consent using a referendum, for the same reason.

Additionally, I think both countries' members would act too secretively concerning their couty's military strategy and tactics and technology around each other without those two conflicts having been solved because a war may yet come, and it would be best to not let the other side know.

Anyway, sorry to ramble on lol. I'd be very happy to devise a joint team for the two countries which forms some time in the future. After all, both countries have experienced plenty of combat and each have on of the world's largest militaries (Taiwan's is much smaller, but relative to other coutnries' militaries, they're much bigger).

I also apologize if I've mentioned contentious politics that make you feel unpleasant. I felt I needed to in order to bring some reality into what I consider a good idea if it were realistically possible.

[Crazy Tom]

smaller means more carrying capacity, means better CIWS breach capacity. it also means less damage.


i think it kind of depends on what the enemy uses. if the enemy has excellent PD, i wouldn't use missiles.

anyway, i'd dump some electronic missiles and micromissiles in along with the warheads. and shower the enemy with DEW's.

The problem with any sort of missile is that ships in SG can jink almost indefinably and at constant high accelerations. By the time you've made a missile that can keep up with them, you have a miniature ship in it's own right.

Which means you have two options: you can either launch your warheads via some sort of mass accelerator and have their on-board fuel used for terminal maneuvers (in which case they're JDAM munitions rather than missiles). Or you make hyperspace capable gunships that jump in close and unleash a swarm of warheads before racing away, in which case they're closer to guided mines.

But I just don't see much room for long range missiles.

Hmm. I think I see your point but I just skimmed. Was it lasers as point defense? With capabilities like that id say you would have to armor or shield your missiles.

Guys? Would it be too mean for me to rag on the newbie?

[Princess Awinita]

Awinita, I while ago I quoted your post, replied, and recall clicking the 'submit reply' post. I could've sworn the system told me that I'd succesffuly posted. But when I went back to look for my reponse and your reponse to my response, I couldn't find it. It may be that a lot more people posted afterwards, and so each of us simply overlooked the positioning of our posts lol. So I apologize if I'm reposting your post and one similar to an earlier one of min as well!

Anyway, I think it's a great idea, but I think realistically for that to occur two events would have to happen first.

First, I think that the Taiwan Straits Crisis would have to be resolved peacefully. Ever since 1949, despite both governments recently making friendlier overtures to each other, in both countries there still exists ill will and mistrust which arises because of this issue. When my parents attended school in Taiwan in the 1950s to 1960s, they had to sing every morning a song which included the line "We will retake the mainland!" I dunno what schoolchildren in China had to do in the same era, but I imagine they probably had to participate in simialar CCP-sponsored indoctrination.

I'm going to make a second point that I hope you won't take offense at. I realize that at the beginning I might sound very arrogant in stating my opinion, but please read all the way to the end first.

Second, I think that China needs to become a democracy. (I'm not saying this right now for the specific sake of expressing my favorite form of government!) And I think that China shouldn't just copy a Taiwan-style or a US-style democracy. I think China would do best to develop a homegrown model of democracy. In fact, some authors on the subject have even suggested China will even develop its own democratic practices that no coutnry in the world has ever thought up of before. I think so because currently, despite the Taiwanese democratic system recently (very young but very strong for a while) regressing unfortunately into a system with quasi-authoritarian aspects (like Chen Shui Bian appointing his relatives to head government ministries--NEPOTISM!, said relatives stealing government money, Ma Ying-Jeou devising the CEFA treaty w/o consulting the Legislative Yuan or answering due questions, M.Y.J.ordering of riot police to attack peaceful protestors), Taiwanese people are afraid of any more regressing happening, especially concerning human/civil rights. They're afraid, and some US senators are as well (sidenote, and it's not that the US dictates Taiwan's politics nowadays lol), that moving into a mutual economic system with China will lead to Taiwan's current human rights laws worsening to a point where they become dangerously close to China's current human/civil rights. I think the Taiwanese government doesn't have the ability to arrange for military treaties with China such as joint Stargate teams without the populace's consent using a referendum, for the same reason.

Additionally, I think both countries' members would act too secretively concerning their couty's military strategy and tactics and technology around each other without those two conflicts having been solved because a war may yet come, and it would be best to not let the other side know.

Anyway, sorry to ramble on lol. I'd be very happy to devise a joint team for the two countries which forms some time in the future. After all, both countries have experienced plenty of combat and each have on of the world's largest militaries (Taiwan's is much smaller, but relative to other coutnries' militaries, they're much bigger).

I also apologize if I've mentioned contentious politics that make you feel unpleasant. I felt I needed to in order to bring some reality into what I consider a good idea if it were realistically possible.

Personally I like the idea of using reality as a means to anchor your stories on. This idea makes sense, it uses reality and thusly, makes it feel more real, for example, the team in question could also have issues with each other because one half is from the Mainland the other from Taiwan, they both hate their governments, etc. It makes it feel more real and to the point. A not so funny team sure, but also a team that is well grounded.