Gateworld Virtual Fleet 4.0 - Discussion thread

[thekillman]

Why did the Robot cross the road?

i don't get it. or it's not funny.

the worst joke ever has got to be the "it's green and it's on a fence" series of jokes.

(it can be anything from frogs, to paint, to grass, moss, leaves, salamanders, etc)

EDIT:

what do YOU guys have to say on the ZPM thing?

[Princess Awinita]

I've skimmed it very slioghtly, but now that you mention this aspecty about their achievement,s I'm hooked and will read more and in further depth!

Well, in book one, Ascension War, they made a starship for the Atlantis Crew, its massive, and a mixture of Asgard/Furling technology in it, then in book two, Ascension War II, they're seen a bit more, also seen fighting one of their major enemies. also mention of the pattern is there in the later chapters.

Book three is in the works, though at the moment it is only partly started with the first two chapters. I'm focused on Project Icegate at the moment

[Gormagon]

I think Zpm's should be rechargeable, perhaps the crystalline containment vessel could taken back to were they were made in the first place. But then why not make more ZPM's?

But I need to reread all the posts on the subject.

Ok, I skimmed, Here are my thoughts.

Zpm's should be....
Rechargeable.
How?
ZPMs have always seemed like batteries to me. But they store a massive amount of energy, around 10^35 joules I think theKillman said. (Perhaps more.) In order to recharge a ZPM we would need a massive energy source of our own, I think it would be inefficient to use naquadah based sources, it would take too much or too long. Or both. So, we use big subspace tap or VEG or other similar output energy source that is capable of generating the same amount of energy as a ZPM OVER TIME, but can not release said energy as quickly/efficiently. That is the advantage of the ZPM.

But what if they are not like batteries? A "self contained region of subspace time". We would use the Subspace tap or VEG to recreate the mini subspace universe.

Am I making any sense here?

[blackluster]

Technical question, how do you encode sensor signals? Or make them undetectable to others? Particularly Goa'uld sensors.

I had a theory that involved narrow beam subspace transmissions. A narrow beam subspace communication would have to be very specifically directed to its target. The narrower and harder to detect the transmission is, the more precise the coordinates have to be yes? The narrow beam would be very hard to detect unless you were in its path right?

If you know they would detect even a narrow beam transmission, go for wide angel(broad) transmission that go's to a bunch of places, with the actual target being reached as well.

I ask because my next part of my story has stealth probes transmitting back to the Houjin ship. Another option could be that they simply store the detected information and then return to the mother ship direct link download it.

lol, welcome to the world of radar engineers vs electronic warfare engineers.

Your theory of a narrow beam is conceptually sound, except that it doesn't exist practically. Even highly directional antennas leak energy in directions that you don't want. They call these energy leaks sidelobes, and depending on the design of the energy emitter, they can put out a significant fraction of the main broadcast in other directions.

For comm or data transfer, you wouldn't really want to be too directional since that then requires extra processing steps and time to first locate the person you want to talk to, center on them, then begin broadcasting. The problem with that is also that should your enemy happen upon your highly directional signal, it allows them to quickly calculate the locations of the two communicating parties which defeats the purpose of stealth.

In that sense then, assuming that you go for a simple design wide beam transmission, you have two options:

1. Either make your comms. unreadable (encryption)
2. Or hide in plain sight.

Option 1 is pretty self explanatory. Tough encryption in comms is a tradeoff between security and overhead. Higher security means higher overhead which means lower data transfer rates.

Option 2 is all about exploiting the channel or medium, in this case subspace. The canon seems to describe subspace shenanigans similarly to the EM spectrum. So looking at it that way, one of the best strategies to employ is to hide in the channel noise, or to make your signal behave and look like noise, causing your enemy to ignore it. This is analogous to spread spectrum techniques, which show that a good way to avoid interference is to spread your data over multiple frequencies in a pseudo random manner. This makes it difficult for an enemy to piece together your data and it also makes your comms more resilient against unexpected interference that might cause data corruption.

There is a lot that can be said about stealthy comms, it depends what approach you'd like to take.





On ZPMs: personally I'd always just assumed that they were one shot devices. The ability to recharge them would certainly have been a major part of Ancient energy usage, but no mention has ever been made of a rechargeable ability, not from the Atlantean Database, not from the Wraith and not even from the Asurans. The problem seemed to forever be manufacturing them.

To me it seemed like the Ancients manufactured a artificial universe which decays by itself, releasing energy as it loses its form. Once the artificial universe is spent, the device become useless similar to how fission material becomes practically useless for energy extraction purposes once it has been reacted past a certain point.

[thekillman]

To me it seemed like the Ancients manufactured a artificial universe which decays by itself, releasing energy as it loses its form. Once the artificial universe is spent, the device become useless similar to how fission material becomes practically useless for energy extraction purposes once it has been reacted past a certain point.

yes, but it's rechargeable before the point of no return.

Ok, I skimmed, Here are my thoughts.

i don't see anything remotely useful in this.

the point is, there's no reason why they're not rechargeable. it's just that we do not have sufficient energy to recharge them

[blackluster]

yes, but it's rechargeable before the point of no return.

Did someone manage to do it in the show? I haven't followed the ZPM tech tree very closely since it always frustrated me as the writing crutch it ended up becoming.

[Gormagon]

i don't see anything remotely useful in this.

Then dont ask us lowly peasants.

the point is, there's no reason why they're not rechargeable. it's just that we do not have sufficient energy to recharge them

Nope, no reason, the problem is the energy expenditure to do so. Perhaps not "recharged", "reset" might be a better term, the old mini universe replaced with a new one derived from the energy of a in the long term just as potent power source. But the ZPM can release it much faster.

[Gormagon]

Your theory of a narrow beam is conceptually sound, except that it doesn't exist practically. Even highly directional antennas leak energy in directions that you don't want. They call these energy leaks sidelobes, and depending on the design of the energy emitter, they can put out a significant fraction of the main broadcast in other directions.

Ah ha! But the Houjin are centuries ahead of us.

For comm or data transfer, you wouldn't really want to be too directional since that then requires extra processing steps and time to first locate the person you want to talk to, center on them, then begin broadcasting. The problem with that is also that should your enemy happen upon your highly directional signal, it allows them to quickly calculate the locations of the two communicating parties which defeats the purpose of stealth.

Actually, the way I am thinking of it in my head, only the sender could be detected, I was thinking of a subspace com data "wave", the source could be traced, but if it was just aimed in the general spatial direction of the receiver, space being big, how would they find the target?

In that sense then, assuming that you go for a simple design wide beam transmission, you have two options:

1. Either make your comms. unreadable (encryption)
2. Or hide in plain sight.
Option 1 is pretty self explanatory. Tough encryption in comms is a tradeoff between security and overhead. Higher security means higher overhead which means lower data transfer rates.

Ahhhhhhh. This explains a few things.

Option 2 is all about exploiting the channel or medium, in this case subspace. The canon seems to describe subspace shenanigans similarly to the EM spectrum. So looking at it that way, one of the best strategies to employ is to hide in the channel noise, or to make your signal behave and look like noise, causing your enemy to ignore it. This is analogous to spread spectrum techniques, which show that a good way to avoid interference is to spread your data over multiple frequencies in a pseudo random manner. This makes it difficult for an enemy to piece together your data and it also makes your comms more resilient against unexpected interference that might cause data corruption.

Mhhm subspace background noise. Only sophisticated sensors like those on Atlantas or those used by the Wraith have been seen detecting similar signals in subspace. If I remember correctly.

What about the Piggybacking concept? You could use enemy subspace transmissions to carry your own signal.

There is a lot that can be said about stealthy comms, it depends what approach you'd like to take.

Undetectable to the Goa'uld currently. Or Goa'uld based scanners.

[thekillman]

Did someone manage to do it in the show? I haven't followed the ZPM tech tree very closely since it always frustrated me as the writing crutch it ended up becoming.

it's never said directly, but neither is it said it's not rechargeable. neither have i seen us possess any means of power generation to meaningfully recharge them.

however, inside is a microkosmos. it's obvious that if the entropy is sufficiently high, at some point that microkosmos can not expand no matter how much energy is added, as at that point the microwormhole inside would collapse too from lack of energy.

i am not sure where the threshold is.

Nope, no reason, the problem is the energy expenditure to do so. Perhaps not "recharged", "reset" might be a better term, the old mini universe replaced with a new one derived from the energy of a in the long term just as potent power source. But the ZPM can release it much faster.

except that there would be no difference. if you dump energy into the wormhole, it's added to the micro universe. it makes sense to me that if the threshold is passed, the ZPM's universe will, no matter how hard it might seem to accept, dissolve and thus the ZPM is empty.

Ah ha! But the Houjin are centuries ahead of us.

this is rapidly becoming an excuse rather than a reason.

it's a simple fact that it's pretty much impossible to engineer a system emitting it across subspace in a manner that does not leak it. i doubt the Houjin are advanced enough to hide it in the subspace turbulence and retrieve it. the first is possible, the latter not. given some of my observations, that turbulence would be massive.

Actually, the way I am thinking of it in my head, only the sender could be detected, I was thinking of a subspace com data "wave", the source could be traced, but if it was just aimed in the general spatial direction of the receiver, space being big, how would they find the target?

then it's not stealth.

Undetectable to the Goa'uld currently. Or Goa'uld based scanners.

that's pretty high tech

[Gormagon]

it's never said directly, but neither is it said it's not rechargeable. neither have i seen us possess any means of power generation to meaningfully recharge them.

however, inside is a microkosmos. it's obvious that if the entropy is sufficiently high, at some point that microkosmos can not expand no matter how much energy is added, as at that point the microwormhole inside would collapse too from lack of energy.

i am not sure where the threshold is.
except that there would be no difference. if you dump energy into the wormhole, it's added to the micro universe. it makes sense to me that if the threshold is passed, the ZPM's universe will, no matter how hard it might seem to accept, dissolve and thus the ZPM is empty.

Mhm. As long as they can be reset/recharged from a advanced yet "slower" power source i.r.d.c.

this is rapidly becoming an excuse rather than a reason.

Woa. Dad? Is that you?

Anyways, its a factor, one that must be considered not an "excuse".

it's a simple fact that it's pretty much impossible to engineer a system emitting it across subspace in a manner that does not leak it. i doubt the Houjin are advanced enough to hide it in the subspace turbulence and retrieve it. the first is possible, the latter not. given some of my observations, that turbulence would be massive.

Meh. But the leaks can be constricted, is there not a way to keep the signal from "leaking" too much?

then it's not stealth.

No, but the signal would be coming from a semi expendable probe to a non expendable spaceship.

that's pretty high tech

The Goa'uld are arrogant. And set in there ways that they have been following for 100s-1000s of years. Being parasites, they advance rather slowly, if at all. Thereby, there technology would not have changed very much for a long time. So the Houjin, who have been preparing for war with them for centuries, would have found a way to effectively counteract Goa'uld sensory technology, which I believe the LA use, at least for the most part. That is my theory.

[thekillman]

Mhm. As long as they can be reset/recharged from a advanced yet "slower" power source i.r.d.c.

it would likely require a certain energy threshold to be crossed, an energy mountain so to speak.


i doubt a Naquahdah generator will ever be enough in any form to recharge one. which is EXACTLY why i was talking about Icarus and Destiny.

Meh. But the leaks can be constricted, is there not a way to keep the signal from "leaking" too much?

i consider it like the error induced in any control system: you can never make it zero, nor can you add in a factor which can be made infinite to try and make it near-zero.

ultimately, it will continue to exist. any form of long-range communication is ultimately detectable. one thing you have to keep in mind is not whether Goauld tech CAN detect it but wheter they WILL detect it. remember that if they never encountered a similar thing and find some oddity, they're likely to consider it an error rather than a signal.


secondly, it would be possible to bypass Goauld "ears". move the probes to a more favorable place to ensure whatever leaks you got will be in "empty" directions or will move sufficiently far to make the goauld dismiss it as static. especially if you can encrypt it well.


third is making your message stealth. you could encode it to become a standard goauld text, but once the Houjin recieve it they decode it to the real message.


in the end, data leaks are like weak points. you can't prevent them but it's possible to properly handle them.

IE, if your weakness is a weak spot in the armor, you could ensure that that spot of armor is well-protected otherwise. or that that weakspot is only reachable by fighter and not by plasma weapon, and you install sufficient CIWS.

it's a matter of preventing the right circumstances for the flaw to be used.

[blackluster]

Ah ha! But the Houjin are centuries ahead of us.

Whatever you say guy. I'm just bringing certain realities to your attention.

Actually, the way I am thinking of it in my head, only the sender could be detected, I was thinking of a subspace com data "wave", the source could be traced, but if it was just aimed in the general spatial direction of the receiver, space being big, how would they find the target?

lol, how general is a 'general spatial direction'. Some quick trigonometry off the top of your head would tell you what area of space its covered by a beam even 0.5 degrees wide over a distance of many light years. As for finding the target, you catch the communicators during the setup phase. Basically in proper data transfer protocols, there is a back and forth between parties, since one side blasting data is pointless of the other side isn't listening. The way that communication is managed in the most simple form is through acknowledgments. ie the receiver tells the sender he is ready or to adjust the data rate etc.

Let's assume for a moment though that you are using the worst comm protocol ever and the sender just blasts data with no feedback. Assuming that the emitter is so directional, the sender has to first locate the receiver so that he is not aimlessly sending data into empty space. How does he know he found the receiver without a response? The answer in a power conserving world is that he doesn't. This gives the enemy the first opportunity.

Let's assume though that the enemy has lost this opportunity and is only picking up a one way data stream. You can still mathematically predict the probable location of the receiver with the just the energy in the signal (since rate of decay is predictable) and with some basic cartography.

Mhhm subspace background noise. Only sophisticated sensors like those on Atlantas or those used by the Wraith have been seen detecting similar signals in subspace. If I remember correctly.

What about the Piggybacking concept? You could use enemy subspace transmissions to carry your own signal.

You don't need sophisticated equipment to pick up noise. Understand when I say noise, it means any signal appearing in your receiver that you are not interested in. This doesn't only mean the noise floor of subspace (which is most likely so low that transmitting inside it is not going to give a signal that travels very far) but anything that produces spurious signals. Understand also that making a signal appear 'noise-like' is simply turning it into a signal that looks like garbage. What I mean stems from the probability density function of noise, but to put it simply, the idea is to make a signal that appears to change in a completely random and unpredictable manner.

As for piggybacking, you could do that but you seriously need to clarify your thoughts. There are times when hiding a signal in another signal has utility, and times where it is not only completely useless but can also leave you vulnerable. There is no catch-all solution. You have to determine what the system you want does exactly and go from there.

Piggybacking a signal on another is more readily applicable to your own signals. Detecting an enemy signal and putting something on that is more applicable for electronic warfare. Putting a communications signal onto an enemy signal can only work for very specific applications, though the majority of the time I'd estimate that it would be a colossally stupid thing to do.

Undetectable to the Goa'uld currently. Or Goa'uld based scanners.

This is far too vague.

Any sensor can be defeated if you have enough time to study it. It all depends on how it works.

Sorry to digress for a moment, but it was something I lamented about in one of Tom's threads where the issues of sensors in scifi are so poorly handled. There is absolutely no respect for how complex remote sensing and communication actually is. Sci fi shows often just collapse all related technicalities onto the magical sensors when there is so much that generally interferes with remote sensing that the abstraction in sci fi shows is nothing short of a joke.

Ranting aside, trying to invent elaborate countermeasures to Goauld sensors is a useless exercise since the show made no decent attempt to even describe how they work. It's like two cavemen sitting around dreaming up ways to fight fire when they haven't even invented fire yet.

If we modeled their sensors on EM sensors like radar, there is no end to the measures and countermeasures that can be taken since one depends on the other. Personally, I think you might as well go the route of the show and chalk up your stealthy comms to encryption rather than wading through modulation solutions to tackle a system that we have no definitive information on about how it works.

[Gormagon]

Ug....*Scratch's head*

secondly, it would be possible to bypass Goauld "ears". move the probes to a more favorable place to ensure whatever leaks you got will be in "empty" directions or will move sufficiently far to make the goauld dismiss it as static. especially if you can encrypt it well.

So basically, multiple forms of transmission and strategies to use depending on the situation. Adding encryption, different levels.

It's like two cavemen sitting around dreaming up ways to fight fire when they haven't even invented fire yet.

Got to remember that illustration.

[thekillman]

Ug....*Scratch's head*

Whatever you say guy. I'm just bringing certain realities to your attention.

*adds elaborate sensor technology to the list of "things you should never discuss in-depth*

So basically, multiple forms of transmission and strategies to use depending on the situation. Adding encryption, different levels.

i think i can boil Blackluster's post down to one question:

how afraid are the Houjin of the Goauld?

The Goa'uld are arrogant. And set in there ways that they have been following for 100s-1000s of years. Being parasites, they advance rather slowly, if at all. Thereby, there technology would not have changed very much for a long time. So the Houjin, who have been preparing for war with them for centuries, would have found a way to effectively counteract Goa'uld sensory technology, which I believe the LA use, at least for the most part. That is my theory.

i personally approach many things in stargate with probability. it's why i say "likely" and "probably" so much.

i consider it likely that the Goauld tech had no significant changes over time. i also consider it likely that the Goauld do not have extensive sensor grids to monitor lots of chatter, so it's unlikely that every single transmission is detected.

the LA use, well i do not know myself. it varies. i think most Ha'tak controlled by the LA have had modifications, of all types, so i doubt there's a standard.

however the LA and Tau'ri would monitor chatter much more precisely and much more commonly than the Goauld, as both are actively spying and sabotaging. the LA are leeching info and tech from Earth, Earth is sabotaging and misinforming the LA.

Got to remember that illustration.

it's applicable to us too. we, in fact, know very little about Stargate and the more intricate workings. in general, pinning it down is a bad idea. i believe that trying to rationalize the Dispersion Fields of the Reapers was one of my worst moments. it was blatantly wrong and i should've realized that. ultimately, it comes down to a combination of a gut feeling, a good sense of science and a consensus among the fleet members.


i can learn you a good sense of science, and after i read Blackluster's post i believe we just gained an expert/well informed person (never knew you knew that much about sensors) in a new field. i personally know little of that field.

my field is Mechanic Engineering and i'm learning the fine art of design. which is currently why i approach ship design and tech design the way i do. weak points are inevitable. the only failure you can make is designing something that doesn't do what it's supposed to do.

but these principles apply to everything. for our project we designed a beer-bottle mover and the initial design was purely based upon gut feeling. it turned out to be quite right.

i myself use "digital data" because it combines the usefulness of knowing something with the benefits of not knowing it. you kind of know what you want and you can play with that. i know where i want my characters to come from and go to, and that's useful when writing it as you can stay true to the characters without needing endless lists of facts.


i think that we shouldn't attempt to rationalize everything simply because we can't. my framework however was something i felt was seriously lacking as it allowed no prediction and not even a slight sense of direction.





as to my ZPM thing:

i am still not sure how i can make a "polydimensional" wormhole. the best i can think of is combining aspects of a Subspace Tap, an Arcturus device and a series of ultra-high-energy weapons firing at a single point. the thought behind it being that it would make science FUBAR. in essence, all science breaks down at that point.


and yes, it's dangerous. crazy dangerous, which is why i think i'd place it on a rogue planet a the rim of the Pegasus galaxy. far away from anything serious to blow up.

[thekillman]

i had an epiphany:

i talk too much