Gateworld Virtual Fleet 4.0 - Discussion thread

[puddlejumperOZ]

How about we get the mods to set up a poll, "What season would like the Gateworld Virtual Fleet 4.0 to start at" ?????

[thekillman]

nah unnessecary.


ok let me get this straight.

-we want ships to play with
-we want more races to play with


i only realised that the Prommy had been developed in only a year or three, not 7.



so how about this:

-we start in current day time.
-the gate has been known for 15 years
-we have used it to explore local planets, because we can't get any further due to stellar drift
-we have acquired old goauld artifacts, a few old goauld ships and a crashed ha'tak.
-we have reverse-engineered various technologies, including shields, rings, hyperdrives, weak energy weapons, and naquahdah generator technology.
-we have developed the 301, 302 and 303. we can determine what they are exactly as our first act. i'd say: gate-capable shuttle, fighter, and the Prometheus (modified model).
-by now, 3 Prometheus classes are up in the air, and two construction sites (one in some american desert and one in some Australian desert) produce one every two years (net production of 1 a year).
-the Gate Programme and Space Programme are governed by a g-8 or so. the top of the world. Canada, Europe(represented by the European President), and America work with one site, and russia and japan and australia supply the other site.
-the Space Force Programme trains naval, army and air force units for space combat. also units are trained for SG teams.

-Imo the SGC should be offworld. that way we can do atlantis-esque threat stories, and we can even blow the thing up if we want without instant reveal. it also is much safer in regards to quarantine and dialling dangerous gates.

-by now we would've built up a significant F-302 force. again there are multiple F-302 "airfields" located at various places in the world
-Area 51 is one of a few alien technology research sites



as to Enemies

-goauld could be done. however we can also reduce their threat and their power and put in new enemies, or put in completely new enemies

-Aschen are a nice potential. however IMO they should be "local". their ships should be about as fast as our initial Prometheus. this means that they are mostly a threat of the "quadrant". not uberly strong or advanced, but they do have greater numbers and industrial capacity.

-other aliens can be enemies, either as one-offs or as much longer enemies. however we should take in account that the galaxy is massive, and easy galactic travel means easy travel to nearby galaxies.

-i think the Tok'ra are important as allies.



one last thing in regards to technology and powerfigures: i think our ships should have a realistic power/size ratio. currently a hive has a power/size ratio dozens of times lower than a 304. our ships are WAY too strong for their size. in 3.0 that was somewhat tweaked with bigger ships, however i think that against anything over 1km in size, our ships simply shouldn't have a chance.

to compensate for old/not so advanced technology, i think it's important to meet the langarans quite fast. their naquahdriah should make our ships significantly stronger, faster and better. but still we'd be limited. i dont think we'd be able to defeat a ha'tak one-on-one with a Prometheus.

as to sizes, i think the Prometheus should be 150 meters in lenght, Deadalus 200m (like the official numbers). leaves us plenty of room for bigger, better ships. size=power

[Experiment 442]

So
prommy = frigate
Daedy = large frigate
ect.

Size to power ratio is a big one. When making the ships we should keep in mind the inside space. Say a ship has missile bays, they take up space. Hangars take up space. Engines take up a lot of space. Power generation should also take up a lot of space. corridors, access tubes, decks, weapon loadout ect.

One of our ships could beat a hat'ak, but they'd probably use a missile or two to do it. Would we have APBWs?

[thekillman]

no asgard technology.

One of our ships could beat a hat'ak, but they'd probably use a missile or two to do it.

either by shooting Gatebusters, or by using far more smaller nukes.

So
prommy = frigate
Daedy = large frigate
ect.

well i don't like strict naval naming, but yes you could call it like that.


our ships would have a power benefit from using naquahdriah (which we'd acquire in a year or so) and well it would give us a considerably higher power/size ratio than using naquahdah. still a hat'tak is scaled to be some 800 meters big. now initially goauld might waste space (just look at Klorel's ship or the big holes used for landing). however if that's filled up...


powergeneration wouldn't require as much space as you would think. actually it depends on how we draw power. if it's like normal nuclear reactors, then the reactor components would be bigger while the core piece would be quite small. if we use the naquadah reactor type, then it's relatively small.

i guess the Hyperdrive will be by far the biggest system.

When making the ships we should keep in mind the inside space.

yes we should do that. but far more than that, i think that we should keep in mind that size means power. a Hive, using the power/size ratio of an Ori Mothership (which is quite high) would beat a 304 with the GREATEST ease. still, hives are poor warships, but the thing that actually IS a warship *a cruiser* is also pathetically weak in terms of power-size ratio.


still i'd like smaller goauld ships to fill the role of ubiquitious warship. a ha'tak is just too big and resource-consuming to be used as a messenger ship. smaller ships, i'd say a ship some 300 meters in length, would be used for border patrol and to check things out. a bigger ship built for war (not a goauld's personal base) at sizes of 500-600 meters would do the battling and whenever a Ha'tak shows up, well that should bring a considerable scare.

[Lt. Col. Mcoy]

I still don't like all the canon-scrapping.

[Experiment 442]

maybe we should look into fusion technology. Very efficent, all you need is a bit of hydrogen and bang, you have the power of a sun at your finger tips. Still, it should probably be used on our ships when it gets sorted out. New technological advances into fusion and so on.

[thekillman]

except that Naquahdah has far higher energy densities. also the asteroid anubis tossed at us contained sufficient naquahdah to power the earth for 4 trillion years *literally*

[lord groovy]

still i'd like smaller goauld ships to fill the role of ubiquitious warship. a ha'tak is just too big and resource-consuming to be used as a messenger ship. smaller ships, i'd say a ship some 300 meters in length, would be used for border patrol and to check things out. a bigger ship built for war (not a goauld's personal base) at sizes of 500-600 meters would do the battling and whenever a Ha'tak shows up, well that should bring a considerable scare.

I think you mean the Al'Kesh :

Spoiler:

But you're right about the ratio ship/power and the fact that we should mind the use of inside space.

[thekillman]

nah an alkesh is more of a bomber.

it's offensively strong but... nope. it's not what i'm talking about. besides the size of an alkesh changes all the time in stargate, one moment it's 50 meters long and another moment it's much bigger.


still, i think it would be nicer if gaps are filled. also it would be nice if not all goauld use the same ships. some would prefer lots of small ships, others would do with a few big ships, or combinations

[locutes]

I think systemlords would go for big shops to show might and show off whereas a lieutenant or an independent ruler unlike a systemlord would use more small ships.

[Crazy Tom]

except that doesn't make any sense. if we had such toys then none of SG1 would work out the way it did. however if we want to start near the beginning, why not completely anew since we already have little canon.

Because all the cannon is still there, it’s still evolving even as we move along, it’d different, but the core of it is still there.

I have an idea for a small planet base for a mining operation or the like, or maybe a small military outpost or something. Its simple and modular though so easy to make/add to as needed.

Basically I sorta took from Avatar and made things a bit more modular, using some thoughts from RT (Admiral PJOZ will know where I come from there (the BCE340s dear!))

The Site otherwise known as Landsite A

It is modular in construction, each room or office group is a box like puzzle piece that is 10 meters long by 4 meters wide by 8 meters tall, and can be stacked upon itself several times, this "box rooms" can act as bedrooms for crew/staff living at the small base, or barracks for soldiers. They can also act as garages, or storerooms for items and are airtight and can go through space. they can't fight through a stargate thought because of their hight of eight meters.

Total cost per box piece minus actual funishing; 1,200-1,800 per box piece. With funishings for set tasks (for example soldiers barracks); 12,500-15,000 each. as garage or storeage container; 3,000-4,500 each.

Ground transports though I'm still thinknig magnetically powered would work better as all one would really haveto worry about is changing oil. But i'm still working on that using my own truck as a base, making a model or stats for it is kind of hard

The idea has merit, but I think it’s a lot simpler to use the prefab buildings the military already uses to make it’s basses and the like. Plus they can be shipped in pieces through the gate. Your idea would work in a hostile environment, but the SGC rarely deals with those.

There might actually be a way to get rid of the Asgard uber-tech and still start after Continuum: the Pegasus Asgard. Let's call them the Jotnar, for nostalgia's sake. What if the Jotnar found a way to get back to Ida and located an O'Neill or some distinctly Asgard vessel, learned about the tech given to Earth, and decided to steal it back? They could show up in orbit in a shiny O'Neill and (pretending to be surviving Asgard, naturally) say that they changed their minds and they want their stuff back. We have no choice but to comply, so we start dismantling our Asgard core and related technologies. Before we realize the dupe, the Jotnar are long gone with our fancy uber-tech. Realism is in sight!

One objection: Why would the Jotnar just leave? Well, because they really just don't seem to care about us pathetic Terrans. They just want to beat the Wraith to bits (for unknown reasons . . .), so they need the stuff. Second objection: Why would we give it away so easily? Well, maybe someone kept some of it secretly; that's a plot hook for later stories.

What do you think? If we do this, I'd be perfectly happy starting with every bit of SG-1 and Universe as canon, and all of Atlantis except the last episode and Brain Storm. (I hate McKay/Keller shipping with a passion . . . but that's another story entirely.)

Personally, the whole suicide thing was an asspull IMO. The writers wanted to give Earth new shiny toys and ran out of ideas. Do we even have to kill the Asgard?

Maybe the Asgard didn’t suicide at all, opting to quietly relocate somewhere else and observe how Earth goes about it’s business as a final test of whether we’re ready to be the fifth race?

On the subject of the Jotnar, calling them the Vanir would be more accurate, as the Jotnar were the giants the Aesir defeated, while the vanir were simply another faction of the Norse gods, that would eventually merge with the Aesir.

nah unnessecary.


ok let me get this straight.

-we want ships to play with
-we want more races to play with


i only realised that the Prommy had been developed in only a year or three, not 7.



so how about this:

The problem with the 2010 start is that it cleanly throws the canon out of the window, while substituting a fairly boring back story. The first seasons of SG-1 were exiting because Earth was totally new to this sort of thing, and there was a certain je ne sais quoi in that.

I still don't like all the canon-scrapping.

You and me both mate.

maybe we should look into fusion technology. Very efficent, all you need is a bit of hydrogen and bang, you have the power of a sun at your finger tips. Still, it should probably be used on our ships when it gets sorted out. New technological advances into fusion and so on.

Perhaps as a civilian source of power. It’s just that naqudah generators are more compact, and don’t need the fancy containment you need to shield against radiation from fusion reactors, reducing maintenance.

[Davidtourniquet]

I'm going to write my pitch for the direction of GWVF 4.0. I recommend everyone does this and then post it here. Please include the positives and negatives of your pitch.

[thekillman]

The problem with the 2010 start is that it cleanly throws the canon out of the window, while substituting a fairly boring back story. The first seasons of SG-1 were exiting because Earth was totally new to this sort of thing, and there was a certain je ne sais quoi in that.

1: i'm trying to keep options open.

2: yes earth would know some stuff. but the WTF factor is still there, as the stuff we found is 5000 year old goauld tech. and we won't have HALF the stuff the goauld invented. no cloaks, weather control, hand devices and what not. basically, the only thing we DID find was:
- a crashed ha'tak
-a few old dusty death gliders
-some staffweapons and zats.
-perhaps some misunderstood, unknown tablet or piece of tech we don't recognise.

in fact, we only realised what some tech did untill we saw it in action. and since nobody has naquahdah in their blood, any naquahdah-requiring technlogy will be dead as hell, and anything too fragile will not survive.

also, the idea is to START when we actually DO go through the gate and discover the wonder of the modern galaxy. that is, Replicators, Aschen, Goauld and what not.

[Princess Awinita]

I'm going to write my pitch for the direction of GWVF 4.0. I recommend everyone does this and then post it here. Please include the positives and negatives of your pitch.

I like this plan, I'm assuming that the pitch that gets the most "I like this lets do it" get the job for the fleet as the timeframe?

*is suddenly shy* Have to go to bed anyway, might have something on sunday night my time

[Lt. Col. Mcoy]

Personally, the whole suicide thing was an asspull IMO. The writers wanted to give Earth new shiny toys and ran out of ideas. Do we even have to kill the Asgard?

Maybe the Asgard didn’t suicide at all, opting to quietly relocate somewhere else and observe how Earth goes about it’s business as a final test of whether we’re ready to be the fifth race?

I agree that it was an annoying stunt, but it is canon now, whether we like it or not. The Asgard couldn't just leave; their plan was never that their removal would force us to take up the mantel of the fifth race. They committed suicide because they introduced a fatal and ubiquitous degenerative disease into their genes in their final attempt to solve the cloning problem. I.e., they were all dying anyway; they just didn't want anyone getting their stuff, so they gave it to us.

On the subject of the Jotnar, calling them the Vanir would be more accurate, as the Jotnar were the giants the Aesir defeated, while the vanir were simply another faction of the Norse gods, that would eventually merge with the Aesir.

That doesn't work, because Freyr, Heimdall, and Kvasir are used as Asgard, so the Asgard civilization has obviously already merged. (Kvasir and Freyr were Vanir, and Heimdall may have been as well.) Even if we did use that branch, Vanaheim would be a better match to "Asgard" in any event. I called the Pegasus Asgard Jotnar as a throwback to Davidtouniquet's race.

Also, the Jotunar were defeated once by the Aesir, but one Jotunn survived and repopulated his people in Niflheim, the land of frost and mist. Similarly, the Pegasus Asgard were driven out (actively or passively) by the Ida Asgard, and they went to Pegasus where we first meet them on a frozen planet. I think the parallel is interesting at least. Oh, and the Jotunar are not always described as giants either, and some of them have quite good relations with the Aesir later in the mythological time-line.