Gateworld Virtual Fleet 4.0 - Discussion thread

[puddlejumperOZ]

Um Blacky there is one actually


Specifications (F-104G)

J79 with components labeled
Cutaway of an air start system of a General Electric J79 turbojet. The small turbine and epicyclic gearing are clearly visible.Data from Quest for Performance[79]

General characteristics

Crew: 1
Length: 54 ft 8 in (16.66 m)
Wingspan: 21 ft 9 in (6.36 m)
Height: 13 ft 6 in (4.09 m)
Wing area: 196.1 ft² (18.22 m²)
Airfoil: Biconvex 3.36% root and tip
Empty weight: 14,000 lb (6,350 kg)
Loaded weight: 20,640 lb (9,365 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 29,027 lb (13,170 kg)
Powerplant: 1× General Electric J79-GE-11A afterburning turbojet
Dry thrust: 10,000 lbf (48 kN)
Thrust with afterburner: 15,600 lbf (69 kN)
Zero-lift drag coefficient: 0.0172
Drag area: 3.37 sq ft (0.31 m²)
Aspect ratio: 2.45
Performance

Maximum speed: 1,328 mph (1,154 kn, 2,125 km/h)
Combat radius: 420 mi (365 nmi, 670 km)
Ferry range: 1,630 mi (1,420 nm, 2,623 km)
Service ceiling: 50,000 ft (15,000 m)
Rate of climb: 48,000 ft/min (244 m/s)
Wing loading: 105 lb/ft² (514 kg/m²)
Thrust/weight: 0.54 with max. takeoff weight (0.76 loaded)
Lift-to-drag ratio: 9.2
Armament


Guns: 1 × 20 mm (0.79 in) M61 Vulcan gatling gun, 725 rounds
Hardpoints: 7 with a capacity of 4,000 lb (1,814 kg) and provisions to carry combinations of:
Missiles: 4 × AIM-9 Sidewinder
Other: * Other: Bombs, rockets, or other stores

[blackluster]

Well I stand amazed and corrected. *accepts generous helping of humble pie*

There is no problem then. Not technically under 5m but as near as makes no difference.

[puddlejumperOZ]

Well I stand amazed and corrected. *accepts generous helping of humble pie*

There is no problem then.

That'a only provided Awinta gets the rest of her specs right *gives blacky Apple pie*

[blackluster]

lol, I'm reading up on it and the problems are as expected, small wing generating poor lift requires high airspeed to work. If your engine stalls, you're stuffed. Not a problem with Stargate tech I guess, but the omission of an inertialess drive is still worrying.

[Princess Awinita]

That'a only provided Awinta gets the rest of her specs right *gives blacky Apple pie*

apperently not many of us are well versed in SDO....... My fighters are my creation with the way they are created as thus, I COULD try to fdraw them on paper then do a scan, but I need a scanner like I said. However I say only this, my fighters were made with something in mind for a reason of their size. Blacky even mentioned both models are (so far) the only fighters that are gate travel capible,.

Now don't be telling me that a puddlejumper can't fly with its wings closed, even with them open they only had a meter or so to total width of the craft!

[Princess Awinita]

lol, I'm reading up on it and the problems are as expected, small wing generating poor lift requires high airspeed to work. If your engine stalls, you're stuffed. Not a problem with Stargate tech I guess, but the omission of an inertialess drive is still worrying.

Very big IF, there Blacky, you forget, both models are MAGNETIC powered, meaning they're never really off, if you can call a low humming noise as off, or powered down. magnets are constly running machines, thus enabling constant supply of power. Hopefully Yiang has a scanner when I see him on my birthday (getting ever closer!) so I can provide my two intial drawings of both models.

[blackluster]

Now don't be telling me that a puddlejumper can't fly with its wings closed, even with them open they only had a meter or so to total width of the craft!

You're missing the point I was trying to make initially. A puddle jumper with it's wings open or closed is not using any feature of is fuselage design to actually fly, it is using an Ancient inertialess drive which is the same way is achieves VTOL. Without that drive a puddle jumper would simply skid along the ground even with it's ion thrusters firing at full power.

I'll use an analogy which you can test yourself which makes the point of the role the fuselage plays in generating lift which equals flight. Simply take a pencil in one hand and a paper plane in the other. Toss them and see which flies better. The pencil which is analogous to the puddle jumper would plummet to the ground because it has no surfaces which can generate lift. That is an aeronautical engineering fact.

I have that same concern for your fighters in that the tinier you make the wings, the less useful lift they can generate, which requires your planes to be traveling at high speed constantly. In the event of an engine failure, gliding becomes virtually impossible. It just seems like an unnecessary risk to pilots for what a rather limited set of gains. Granted you know what you want from the craft, but that tradeoff is what I'm looking at.

Very big IF, there Blacky, you forget, both models are MAGNETIC powered, meaning they're never really off, if you can call a low humming noise as off, or powered down. magnets are constly running machines, thus enabling constant supply of power. Hopefully Yiang has a scanner when I see him on my birthday (getting ever closer!) so I can provide my two intial drawings of both models.

Whether the engine is on or not doesn't matter. A stall occurs when the load on an engine exceeds its output. In the case of the craft you've designed, the engine is under constant load because it gets no help from lifting surfaces. Sure you could tout it as the greatest engine ever made that will never fail over the entirety of it's service with each model being more reliable than death and taxes, but the point still stands. Like I said though, your design is your design, though given that aspect of risk and inherent instability, some thought into compensating into some eventualities would have been nice. Given other models where one understands the physics behind what might be possible given certain events, your craft which is heavily based around alien tech in a very unusual shape makes no further descriptions about the flight systems.

[Princess Awinita]

You're missing the point I was trying to make initially. A puddle jumper with it's wings open or closed is not using any feature of is fuselage design to actually fly, it is using an Ancient inertialess drive which is the same way is achieves VTOL. Without that drive a puddle jumper would simply skid along the ground even with it's ion thrusters firing at full power.

I'll use an analogy which you can test yourself which makes the point of the role the fuselage plays in generating lift which equals flight. Simply take a pencil in one hand and a paper plane in the other. Toss them and see which flies better. The pencil which is analogous to the puddle jumper would plummet to the ground because it has no surfaces which can generate lift. That is an aeronautical engineering fact.

I have that same concern for your fighters in that the tinier you make the wings, the less useful lift they can generate, which requires your planes to be travelling at high speed constantly. In the event of an engine failure, gliding becomes virtually impossible. It just seems like an unnecessary risk to pilots for what a rather limited set of gains. Granted you know what you want from the craft, but that tradeoff is what I'm looking at.

I will tell you what, let me get my hands on a scanner and free time without anyone hawking jobs my way for a day and get you guys a pair of 'screenshots' of the twomodels to atl east get an idea of what I'm talking about. That sound fair?

I know I said to feel free to pick both models apart and give pointers,but they're really just staying as is with only a few slight updates/edits (some missed words, and the like,) right now I'm using a borrowed machine, but notable in sight for any drawing to happen upon. (though I have the paper)

[colbmista]

if small wings cant help a craft fly how does the nasa space shuttle fly cuz its wings are dinky as hell

[blackluster]

if small wings cant help a craft fly how does the nasa space shuttle fly cuz its wings are dinky as hell

The space shuttle's wingspan compared to its length is still almost 1:2. The flat undercarriage also makes the entire thing act like one giant wing. It's not really comparable to the F104, and Awinita's craft have wingspans up 30% smaller than even that. The point being that any wing will do something, but the smaller you make it you reach the point where it's not doing anything useful anymore and you're putting a great deal of strain on your engines.

[Lt. Col. Mcoy]

Sorry I'm a couple hours late, guys. Submissions for Fighters are now closed, and voting is open until Wednesday.

Here are the entries (correct me if there's a newer version of one):

Davidtourniquet:
Vortex

bradly08:
Hawk

thekillman:
Aethon

immhotep:
Medusa/Hydra

Princess Awinita:
Windfire or Startail

blackluster:
Asagai

puddlejumperOZ:
F-100, Mk. I and II

fugiman:
Merlin

Good luck!

[Princess Awinita]

In answer to Blacky..... For basic appearance only Since I can't exactly draw without aid of proper 3Dmodeling software or pretty much anything large enough to encompass my idea on paper, I went with as close as possible, however this is basic appearance only for the Startail model. colors may vary and also weapons placement may be differently located. The Windfire model is pretty much a F302 minutes wings (yet with 16" wing stubs for weapon mounting where the wings are to be located. Both models are powered by magnetically generated energy)

[Princess Awinita]

@!McKoy: we get two votes per submitter correct? those who do not submit vote once?

[Princess Awinita]

Quick question! On a chatroom network I'm a room moderator on, some of the users are debating of fighter types,I'll give a transcript, known as users with a number and Vipteri as myself

User1: aren't F302's from Stargate series considered 'snub fighters?'
User2: snubfighters? what the heck are those?
User4: fighters with barely any nose?
Vipteri: I'm not sure, I'd think so, as they're small, but can alsohold two crewmen, maybe three at best.
User4: I'mnot sure of holding three, but two I know is true since I watch the show
Vipteri: Let me ask a few friends that would know the answer then?
*they allagree, and Vipteri heads for gateworld forums*

So, what do you guys think? are F302's considered a snubfighter like X-Wings and Y-Wings? which are actually huge, larger then Startail or Windfire models that is for sure

[fugiman]

I entered a fighter too McKoy