Gateworld Virtual Fleet 4.0 - Discussion thread

[Davidtourniquet]

I'm sorry but $5 million for a gunship is ridiculous, especially for a space based gunship. You need to pay for naquada mining, trinium mining, transportation through the gate etc means costs will be much higher. You can't expect a gunship to cost 80 times less than the eurofighter does.
Here's the republished standardisation tables.

[Princess Awinita]

I'm sorry but $5 million for a gunship is ridiculous, especially for a space based gunship. You need to pay for naquada mining, trinium mining, transportation through the gate etc means costs will be much higher. You can't expect a gunship to cost 80 times less than the eurofighter does.
Here's the republished standardisation tables.

Depoending on the actual ZISE of the gunship, in t his case a simple five man sized craft (for a total example a jumper) costs what? If a simple gunship like a huey is created, it is not a big craft, it can be made by a non military group for example, then put into service under a contract made on earth. making a gunship (and by gunship I am seeing something like a jumper sized craft, in this case Project 210) need not be THAT costly. each year the US spends what, 300 something billion on defense, where does that money go? If a private company makes these small craft, which are perfect for hit and fade and incertions, why make them so costly?

Everyone assumes a gunship is huge, I cxan deal with that, but they aren't all that big, i'm going ascost effective as possible.

[locutes]

still if a JSF costs 80 mil a gunship cannot be less

[Princess Awinita]

still if a JSF costs 80 mil a gunship cannot be less

everyone is thiking big, as in more then 20 meters long/wide everyone naturally no doubt thinks bigger is better, in some cases it is not so, smaller works just as well. Which is why I see Project 210 being no more then USD 5 mil per unit, because it is no larger then 15 meters long, (12.82 meters) or wide (8.82 meters) or tall (5 meters) it is not a huge craft, it is small enough to get the job done, larger only makes a bigger target, and money wasted

[locutes]

no I am not, I am thinking BSG Raptor like which MUST cost more then a Viper, SO I reason that a gunship should cost more


besides the tech is hard to make, naquadah, trinium and so are scarce advanced electronics and weapons need to be installed, that COSTS allot. Even if it is a Jumer like design, an Earth style Jumper would cost more than a fighter. If you think of an Apache for stargate travel you would have to pay quite the amount of money.

I think of a gunship as being a ship in size of an Apache/Jumper for gate travel, loaded with weapons. That COSTS

[Princess Awinita]

I think of a gunship as being a ship in size of an Apache/Jumper for gate travel, loaded with weapons. That COSTS

Yes it does, but I do not see it costing any more then USD 5 mil because of its total size, also, why do ships have to be made of naquadah and trnium? why not normal ceramics and durasteel? (which is actually cheaper)

don;t get me started on "what about using Mithril?"

[puddlejumperOZ]

most likely 1 city with suburbs. people will move in, form small towns. as more people come the holes start filling up, advanced infrastructure comes online and a city starts to form. there aren't sufficient people for hundreds of cities, although the Prime Planets will probably have 2-3




something like that, yes.




i do not believe some of the smaller countries can support their own colony. i actually think a European Colony would be better.

You're forgetting about the power and influence of the Asia Pacific region, their GDP is almost twice that of both the US and Europe. Japan, China, South Korea, Australia, Taiwan and Singapore could easily build two ships to the US's and Europe's one.

So far I like it. Just 2 questions :

- those intragalactic/extragalactic hyperdrives are the one given by the Asgards or retrofitted from the Daedalus engines? maybe you should mention the time it needs to get from MW to Pegasus even though the Atlantis arc will not be explored in this fleet.

- it's cool to have a cloak on a gunship but is it really necessary? And does Earth even know how to cloak a (big) ship by 2012?

Oh and one last thing : Janet Fraiser was a medic. Not sure she would have appreciated having a gunship or any other kind of warship named after her. it's like having a USS Gandhi. That just seems wrong.

Last question first. The class of ships were named The Herione class, mostly they would have been christened after people such as Britannia, Joan of Arc etc, but with the death of Janet Fraiser and the honour she had in the SGC, I thought it was only fitting.

The intergalatic drives would be scaled down versions of the Daedalus class yes. And I would estimate probably about the same drive time MW to Peg, depending on traffic conditions.

Cloaking, the Goa'uld have cloaking and the SGC has been futzing with their stuff for a while

[blackluster]

@Davidtourniquet: Could you give some guidance as to how the figures should be incorporated into spec please? Also, some of the component and manufacturing pricing seems inconsistent with the numbers that appeared earlier in the thread. Do the prices combined with unit numbers indicate mass production of a particular subsystem? If so then I cannot picture such a mass consumption between the number of proposed colonies, and I doubt any of this stuff is being exported.

I must admit that I had hoped this info would have been fused with Killman's generational outline, or at least been re-ordered such, since that gives more flexibility in terms of what people would like to implement I feel.

[puddlejumperOZ]

And Iv'e done a quick estimate on Awinita's gunship, using several current gen craft as a guideline. You are looking at somewhere around the $90 to $100 million a peice.

[Davidtourniquet]

@Davidtourniquet: Could you give some guidance as to how the figures should be incorporated into spec please? Also, some of the component and manufacturing pricing seems inconsistent with the numbers that appeared earlier in the thread. Do the prices combined with unit numbers indicate mass production of a particular subsystem? If so then I cannot picture such a mass consumption between the number of proposed colonies, and I doubt any of this stuff is being exported.

I must admit that I had hoped this info would have been fused with Killman's generational outline, or at least been re-ordered such, since that gives more flexibility in terms of what people would like to implement I feel.

No the unit numbers are estimates of how many exist at the time we are starting at. The cost figures have changed based on discussions in the thread. Killman has had influence in the changes to the tables. The main reasons for costing everything and budgeting for each class is to stop ships becoming too uber and the same goes with the unit numbers. No one can put a ship spec up with 20 Mark IXs because there aren't 20 Mark IXs in existence, for example. There is a lot of flexibility in the tables, so you can build the ship out of a weaker material and trade that off with better weapons for example.

[thekillman]

Same thing of what you said about the Dragon Gunship, only backwards. Do we want these things to fit through the gates or not? that's mainly what I'm going for in terms of size. I can see the Admirals idea for a gunship though being more of an escort carrier rather then a drop/gunship

i want a gunship, not a gunboat. a gunboat is not stealthy. i can't put it properly, but if you watch BSG, the Raptor, that's what i see in a gunship. the helicopter equivalent.

Depoending on the actual ZISE of the gunship, in t his case a simple five man sized craft (for a total example a jumper) costs what? If a simple gunship like a huey is created, it is not a big craft, it can be made by a non military group for example, then put into service under a contract made on earth. making a gunship (and by gunship I am seeing something like a jumper sized craft, in this case Project 210) need not be THAT costly. each year the US spends what, 300 something billion on defense, where does that money go? If a private company makes these small craft, which are perfect for hit and fade and incertions, why make them so costly?

Everyone assumes a gunship is huge, I cxan deal with that, but they aren't all that big, i'm going ascost effective as possible.

you are comparing a bow-and-arrow to a musket. it's very different. a huey is cheap and small and low-tech. we're talking about a craft frakking capable of achieving orbit. look at what we need to do that: a spaceshuttle needs 2 to 3x it's size in fuel to get to orbit. we're talking about something like 15 meters capable of doing that, without humongous fuel tanks. it's uncomparable. just the "achieving orbit" thing is sufficient to add many millions of dollars. this is space flight, not atmospheric.


also i think gate capability should be sacrificed in favour of bigger engines, greater load capacity and combat performance. my idea even has a rapid recharge shield designed to deal with fighter plasma weapons (like a death glider), can take 3 DG shots before failing and needs 30 seconds to recharge again. which sounds uber perhaps, but consider that the DG can generate far more firepower. two DG's hitting within 30 seconds is almost a guaranteed kill. it allows a Gunship to land, drop troops, and stay low and hover to protect, using it's shield to stop bullets and Shoulder-launched missiles, protect the drop team before taking off fully and beating the crap out of the enemy with a missile massacre. then surpressing fire through it's main gun, and taking out DG's via it's ATA missiles.

everyone is thiking big, as in more then 20 meters long/wide everyone naturally no doubt thinks bigger is better, in some cases it is not so, smaller works just as well. Which is why I see Project 210 being no more then USD 5 mil per unit, because it is no larger then 15 meters long, (12.82 meters) or wide (8.82 meters) or tall (5 meters) it is not a huge craft, it is small enough to get the job done, larger only makes a bigger target, and money wasted

with aircraft, size does not matter. technology and weapons do. engine alone would cost a large amount, then there's the inertial dampeners, and my gunship is Hyperspace-capable, adding several million more. i prefer something that can actually protect you than something that's more of a glorified drop pod.

besides the tech is hard to make, naquadah, trinium and so are scarce advanced electronics and weapons need to be installed, that COSTS allot. Even if it is a Jumer like design, an Earth style Jumper would cost more than a fighter. If you think of an Apache for stargate travel you would have to pay quite the amount of money.

I think of a gunship as being a ship in size of an Apache/Jumper for gate travel, loaded with weapons. That COSTS

any advanced tech requires naquahdah, and given it's properties, all conduits and major power-consuming electronics are probably made of it.

Yes it does, but I do not see it costing any more then USD 5 mil because of its total size, also, why do ships have to be made of naquadah and trnium? why not normal ceramics and durasteel? (which is actually cheaper)

certain tech simply requires it. also, we're talking about ships reaching orbit, that simply costs money.



chinook: 35 million
apache 15 million
f-16: 26 million
f-35 JSF: 80 million


the more modern the more expensive. the B-2 costs 2 billion a piece

[Princess Awinita]

And Iv'e done a quick estimate on Awinita's gunship, using several current gen craft as a guideline. You are looking at somewhere around the $90 to $100 million a peice.

Where are you getting that number from? I'm not seeing a samson or scorpion gunship from avatar costing that much at all *is confused*

[Princess Awinita]

i want a gunship, not a gunboat. a gunboat is not stealthy. i can't put it properly, but if you watch BSG, the Raptor, that's what i see in a gunship. the helicopter equivalent.

you are comparing a bow-and-arrow to a musket. it's very different. a huey is cheap and small and low-tech. we're talking about a craft frakking capable of achieving orbit. look at what we need to do that: a spaceshuttle needs 2 to 3x it's size in fuel to get to orbit. we're talking about something like 15 meters capable of doing that, without humongous fuel tanks. it's uncomparable. just the "achieving orbit" thing is sufficient to add many millions of dollars. this is space flight, not atmospheric.

also i think gate capability should be sacrificed in favour of bigger engines, greater load capacity and combat performance. my idea even has a rapid recharge shield designed to deal with fighter plasma weapons (like a death glider), can take 3 DG shots before failing and needs 30 seconds to recharge again. which sounds uber perhaps, but consider that the DG can generate far more firepower. two DG's hitting within 30 seconds is almost a guaranteed kill. it allows a Gunship to land, drop troops, and stay low and hover to protect, using it's shield to stop bullets and Shoulder-launched missiles, protect the drop team before taking off fully and beating the crap out of the enemy with a missile massacre. then surpressing fire through it's main gun, and taking out DG's via it's ATA missiles.

With aircraft, size does not matter. technology and weapons do. engine alone would cost a large amount, then there's the inertial dampeners, and my gunship is Hyperspace-capable, adding several million more. i prefer something that can actually protect you than something that's more of a glorified drop pod.

any advanced tech requires naquahdah, and given it's properties, all conduits and major power-consuming electronics are probably made of it.

certain tech simply requires it. also, we're talking about ships reaching orbit, that simply costs money.

chinook: 35 million
apache 15 million
f-16: 26 million
f-35 JSF: 80 million

the more modern the more expensive. the B-2 costs 2 billion a piece

1:Great Buddha! you guys are going way too far ahead of me here, Look, this is where I'm going off of in terms of actual ship construction MINUS major technology/naquadah stuff.
2: what? Back up a minute, you are going ten paces faster then me, I just know it. Slow down for pity's sake! I mentioned that Prject 210 would be created through a PRIVATE company under contract to a military group, in this case for pure example, the Air Force. the company makes the craft for USD 5 mill each, the MILITARY then adds the technology they need for it.
2a: You mention power, Project 210 is powered by Twin Ion Engines, to get it to the air, high enough for the TIE's to take over, it has backup smaller engines powered directly by magnets the size of a loaf of bread.

Why is everyone thinknig everything has to cost a trillion dollars when it can actually be made cheaper with better items, and last longer? my craft I suggested for gate travel, if it has to it can go into space. Or get launched from a ship into space. I'm going more for total price and size, over flashiness here.

Besides I recall us starting totally new, as if the last fleet got killed off or something, when did that change?

[blackluster]

No the unit numbers are estimates of how many exist at the time we are starting at. The cost figures have changed based on discussions in the thread. Killman has had influence in the changes to the tables. The main reasons for costing everything and budgeting for each class is to stop ships becoming too uber and the same goes with the unit numbers. No one can put a ship spec up with 20 Mark IXs because there aren't 20 Mark IXs in existence, for example. There is a lot of flexibility in the tables, so you can build the ship out of a weaker material and trade that off with better weapons for example.

Okay, so the costs in the tables fall away. In terms of integrating the information into the specs, are the errors you alluded to in the technology listing as in specific labels for specific systems that appear in the table?

Also, would it suffice simply to relate experimental technology to the understood performance of weapons and systems that have appeared in canon? I'll try and fuse some of the table info into the specs I've generated so far.

Where are you getting that number from? I'm not seeing a samson or scorpion gunship from avatar costing that much at all *is confused*

This disconnect is in the level of technology. As futuristic as Avatar is for instance, the craft you mentioned still operate based on systems and physics very close to current day Earth. Since the beginning of Stargate however, its canon has gone to the cutting edge being exotic materials in exotic systems which exploit exotic physics. To give an example of the somewhat equivalent in modern day terms, the equipment used to do certain types of imaging sensing can come close to 28 million euro in cost, and that for nothing but the sensor, never mind the equipment needed to get it where it needs to operate. The sensor in this case is no bigger than 3 meters in height.

Similarly, size in this fictional case doesn't matter, since even a little ion drive requires some exotic materials and construction to make it do what it can do, and then additionally to make it small enough to fit on a craft the size of the one you're proposing. Depending how the drive system works, a pilot isn't really 'flying stick' in it, there is some complicated maths and computers between him and the flight system. You could easily be looking at 5 million dollars for the flight ans control system alone, and thats even making use of cost saving like modern mass production. Size and material trade-off don't do enough in this case, since what the tech is actually doing is well outside what our scientific discovery has done up till now and the cost would certainly reflect that. Even if you project forward to 2025, I think you yourself admitted that the value of money would have changed drastically by then.

[Davidtourniquet]

I've labelled everything in the table now. I think we should keep to the list, but later on maybe bring in some upgrades.