The "Serious Issues With The Ori" thread.

[OriKiller]

Because that's been Stargate's "angle" for the past 8 years.

Egyptian mythology has also been their angle for 8 years. But they have no problem leaving that behind in favor of Camelot mythology. We can go 'round and 'round on that but you didn't answer my question. If, as systemlord75 has suggested, the Ori represent America's current policy in the Middle East, how does the Ori religion fit in?

[OriKiller]

you are not alone in that.you're right. the Ori are not "extremeists" in the sense that they're different from other's of their religion. however, they can come across as extremists depending on what context you take them in. apparently we're taking them in different ones. i also don't find the need to stick to the present with my examples.... i just don't see having two different factions (extremists and regulars) in the Ori religion as necessary to depict extremism. get it? no, huh? sorry.

"Extremist" is obviously derived from the word "extreme", which is a relative term. It has no meaning at all if there is no comparison to some other person or group who is not as far along the path as the "extremist". The suggestion was made by Skydiver and others that the Ori represented "extremists" in all religions. But these religions all have "reasonable" people in comparison with whom the "extremists" are...well...extreme. Where are the "reasonable" people in the Ori religion? Maybe we'll see them in season 10? Who knows, but we haven't seen them yet, and so I don't know how anyone can make a case that the Ori represent only "extremists" in other religions. It looks for all the world that they represent religious devotion in general. And that is what I find to be a "cheap shot".

gone for a week, sorry if i don't answer, but be scared if i do.

Have a nice trip. We can talk later.

[PG15]

Egyptian mythology has also been their angle for 8 years. But they have no problem leaving that behind in favor of Camelot mythology. We can go 'round and 'round on that but you didn't answer my question. If, as systemlord75 has suggested, the Ori represent America's current policy in the Middle East, how does the Ori religion fit in?

I thought the question was why TPTB took the religious angle again?

And Egyptian mythology is just a tool to conveil the thought that extremism is bad. Besides, it's not like they stayed with Egyptian stuff.

[creed462]

As a Christian, I don't see the Ori as an attack on Christianity. Though I do take issue when those who said christianity is a blind faith. There are evidences for it.
The problem I see with the Ori is they don't live off faith at all. It is fear that they use to keep their poeple. In Christianity service is a responce to love. There are other fundamental differences between the two.

[Konman72]

"Extremist" is obviously derived from the word "extreme", which is a relative term. It has no meaning at all if there is no comparison to some other person or group who is not as far along the path as the "extremist". The suggestion was made by Skydiver and others that the Ori represented "extremists" in all religions. But these religions all have "reasonable" people in comparison with whom the "extremists" are...well...extreme. Where are the "reasonable" people in the Ori religion? Maybe we'll see them in season 10? Who knows, but we haven't seen them yet, and so I don't know how anyone can make a case that the Ori represent only "extremists" in other religions. It looks for all the world that they represent religious devotion in general. And that is what I find to be a "cheap shot".

We saw them in "Crusade". There is an entire underground going against the Ori, you may not see them as part of the religion, but I do.

Either way, they need not be extremists to represent them. You would be crazy to say that these people are not extreme in their beliefs. If you have to, contrast them with any modern religion, which group do they most represent? Extremists.

BTW, this is the reason I enjoy the Ori story. It has more relevance to modern day issues than the Goa'uld did, and it is a far darker, more mature theme.

[OriKiller]

We saw them in "Crusade". There is an entire underground going against the Ori, you may not see them as part of the religion, but I do.

The people of the underground actually reject the Ori, unless you think they still believe the Ori are gods. I got the impression that they knew better.

Either way, they need not be extremists to represent them. You would be crazy to say that these people are not extreme in their beliefs. If you have to, contrast them with any modern religion, which group do they most represent? Extremists.

There is no religious group called "extremists". The only religion that the Ori religion resembles in practice is Islam. I agree with Skydiver when she points this out. The question I have is why use the "Crusade" motif when you're really talking about Jihad?

BTW, this is the reason I enjoy the Ori story. It has more relevance to modern day issues than the Goa'uld did, and it is a far darker, more mature theme.

What modern day issues did you have in mind? Please be specific rather than dealing in generalities like "extremism".

[Konman72]

The people of the underground actually reject the Ori, unless you think they still believe the Ori are gods. I got the impression that they knew better.

As I said, they could or could not be seen as a part of the Ori religion. I don't necessarily see them as being a part but they contrast them and show how there are those, even in the Ori Galaxy where disbelief means death, that go against the main doctrines.

Realize that to portray any believer of Origin as not believing in the slaughter of innocents would be contrary to the belief system. Origin calls for the death of all non-believers, not in the way Islam or Christianity can be interpreted to say that, but outright saying it. Also, anyone in the Ori Galaxy who shows any sign of "herecy" would be immediately slaughtered, burned, or converted.

EDIT: The Ancients make a good contrast. Both groups believe in ascension, but they take different routes. The Ancients believe in technology and science, while the Ori believe in religion and belief. Furthermore, the Ori create a religion around them to gain power, while the Ancients take a layed back approach, not interfering. So ascension would be the religion, and killing, worshipping, and oppression are the reason the Ori are extremists in that "religion".

There is no religious group called "extremists". The only religion that the Ori religion resembles in practice is Islam. I agree with Skydiver when she points this out. The question I have is why use the "Crusade" motif when you're really talking about Jihad?

The Crusades are one of the best examples of religious extremism gone wrong. Millions dieing for their religion etc. Also you are being quite narrow minded if you only see Islam as a parallel to the Ori. Look into some of the extremist Christian groups, or Scientology for that matter. Every religion has their crazies who take those little passages about "converting the heathens" to mean "kill anyone who disagrees."

What modern day issues did you have in mind? Please be specific rather than dealing in generalities like "extremism".

War in Iraq, War on Terror, Israel vs. Palistine, Christianity vs. Islam, Terrorism as a whole, etc. etc. etc. (Oh and how do you not see these when the word "extremism" is used, do you not watch the news?)

Also there are parallels in every religion, so, Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Scientology etc.




Realize here guys, this is a metaphor, it is not supposed to be exactly like what it is portraying otherwise it would not be Scifi, or fiction for that matter, it would just be a historical documentary.....and no one wants that. This is all a matter of looking under the surface to see what these things represent.

[Myn McGeek, Third Sentinel]

Phew, I just tried to summarize the whole thread and edit it into my first post!

Tell me if I missed anything important.

[OriKiller]

EDIT: The Ancients make a good contrast. Both groups believe in ascension, but they take different routes. The Ancients believe in technology and science, while the Ori believe in religion and belief. Furthermore, the Ori create a religion around them to gain power, while the Ancients take a layed back approach, not interfering. So ascension would be the religion, and killing, worshipping, and oppression are the reason the Ori are extremists in that "religion".

They don't "believe" in ascension. Ascension to them is a reality, sort of like growing old. Saying the Ori "believe in religion and belief" is a redundancy. They use the ignorance of their followers to gain power and they exterminate anyone who knows the truth or rejects their claims. And the Ancients do not "believe" in technology and science. That makes it sound like technology is a religion to them. Technology and science are tools used by both the Ancients and the Ori. The difference is that one group is benevolent and the other is malevolent. The difference is not in the intensity of their "belief" but in their willingness to exploit and exterminate innocent life for their own gain. This is a sign of a moral deficit, not an intense focus on any particular morality.

The Crusades are one of the best examples of religious extremism gone wrong. Millions dieing for their religion etc.

The Crusades were initiated as a reaction to 450 years of Muslim aggression beginning roughly with the conquest of Jerusalem in 638 AD. And rather than being an example of religious "extremism", they are actually an example of what can happen when masses of armed men who call themselves Christians become completely detached from Christian teachings. Please tell me where Christ commanded his followers to burn, pillage, and slaughter innocent people. This activity would seem to run against such teachings as "love your enemies and pray for them" and "blessed are the peacemakers".

Also you are being quite narrow minded if you only see Islam as a parallel to the Ori. Look into some of the extremist Christian groups, or Scientology for that matter. Every religion has their crazies who take those little passages about "converting the heathens" to mean "kill anyone who disagrees."

"Narrow minded"? Name-calling is no substitute for a good argument. In the last ten years, how many people have been killed by fanatical scientologists? Compare that to the number lost to Islamic terrorism. I'm thinking it won't quite measure up.

War in Iraq, War on Terror, Israel vs. Palistine, Christianity vs. Islam, Terrorism as a whole, etc. etc. etc. (Oh and how do you not see these when the word "extremism" is used, do you not watch the news?)

I thought I already said that the methods of the Ori are similar to Muslim terrorists. That begs the question why TPTB chose to use the term "Crusade" rather than "Jihad". The latter would seem more appropriate since the Ori are attacking without provocation. Maybe they could have used "Intifada". That one is also appropriate but it's not as commonly used as "Jihad".

Also there are parallels in every religion, so, Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Scientology etc.

Not sure what you mean here. The Ori have parallels in every religion?

By the way, to confirm that the Ori are modeled after Muslim terrorists, here's a quote from an RCC interview:
It's different from what our agenda is. And I think that type of single-mindedness certainly exists in our world. It's something we see go on around us. I think it's important for us to try and understand why people want to go to war with us, or blow up our buildings, or our airplanes.

Realize here guys, this is a metaphor, it is not supposed to be exactly like what it is portraying otherwise it would not be Scifi, or fiction for that matter, it would just be a historical documentary.....and no one wants that. This is all a matter of looking under the surface to see what these things represent.

We understand. They're using a science fiction story to put forth some commentary on current events. But by generalizing so much that you use an inappropriate metaphor ("Crusade", monks in robes, etc.) you defeat the point entirely. It makes them look like they are attacking religion in general, rather than attacking the one religious practice that is abhorrent to all (Jihad). I think Dani347 said it best:

Right now, the feel isn't "religious extremists" it's "religious which means extremists."

Right on the money.

[Deevil]

By the way, to confirm that the Ori are modeled after Muslim terrorists, here's a quote from an RCC interview:
It's different from what our agenda is. And I think that type of single-mindedness certainly exists in our world. It's something we see go on around us. I think it's important for us to try and understand why people want to go to war with us, or blow up our buildings, or our airplanes.

Ohh wait, you mean the home growm militant extremest that have blown up buildings in the US are Islamic? I think you are reading what you want to here, because it's what you see.

Many people from many different forms of fanatisim have commited similar attrocities over the years, it doesn't mean RCC was talking solely about Islam. Just as they are not solely implying Christianity. Extremeism exists everywhere and in everything. None of it is good.

Although, interesting, the fact is the Ori as a race have nothing to do with extremism - they are playing out the part of Gods. The Extremism comes from the Priors and the followers.

[OriKiller]

Ohh wait, you mean the home growm militant extremest that have blown up buildings in the US are Islamic? I think you are reading what you want to here, because it's what you see.

Well, he didn't mention "extremism", so did you read something into the statement? If the statement is not meant to imply any group in particular, than it has no meaning. The reference to airplanes and buildings seemed like an obvious clue about the group he was targeting. But if you want to keep pretending that it's all about "extremism", go ahead. I believe in order to make a difference you must have the courage to name names when it is appropriate. There is one religion which sanctions Jihad against groups of people and defends merciless slaughter. Only one.

[Konman72]

They don't "believe" in ascension. Ascension to them is a reality, sort of like growing old. Saying the Ori "believe in religion and belief" is a redundancy. They use the ignorance of their followers to gain power and they exterminate anyone who knows the truth or rejects their claims. And the Ancients do not "believe" in technology and science. That makes it sound like technology is a religion to them. Technology and science are tools used by both the Ancients and the Ori. The difference is that one group is benevolent and the other is malevolent. The difference is not in the intensity of their "belief" but in their willingness to exploit and exterminate innocent life for their own gain. This is a sign of a moral deficit, not an intense focus on any particular morality.

Again, this is a metaphor, it does not have to fit perfectly. Guess I should have put "believe" in quotes.

The Crusades were initiated as a reaction to 450 years of Muslim aggression beginning roughly with the conquest of Jerusalem in 638 AD. And rather than being an example of religious "extremism", they are actually an example of what can happen when masses of armed men who call themselves Christians become completely detached from Christian teachings. Please tell me where Christ commanded his followers to burn, pillage, and slaughter innocent people. This activity would seem to run against such teachings as "love your enemies and pray for them" and "blessed are the peacemakers".

Please tell me where Muhammad said to slaughter innocents in the Qu'ran.

Extremism is based on twisting the teachings of the original doctrine. Origin doesn't do this, but as I have said, it is a metaphor. The reason behin Origin not having to twist is probably to give us an idea of what it is like to be an extremist. They truly feel that their beliefs are "Bible Truth", so to show us an extremist type group whose beliefs actually are true helps us to get an idea of how they think.

"Narrow minded"? Name-calling is no substitute for a good argument. In the last ten years, how many people have been killed by fanatical scientologists? Compare that to the number lost to Islamic terrorism. I'm thinking it won't quite measure up.

I was not name calling. Who cares which religion killed more, all of them have killed. Compare the number of people who died in the Crusades to the number who have died in the recent "Jihad". Also Scientology hasn't been around for very long at all, yet they have killed dozens of people and bankrupted hundreds more. All religions have/had this, and to say otherwise is narrow-minded.

I thought I already said that the methods of the Ori are similar to Muslim terrorists. That begs the question why TPTB chose to use the term "Crusade" rather than "Jihad". The latter would seem more appropriate since the Ori are attacking without provocation. Maybe they could have used "Intifada". That one is also appropriate but it's not as commonly used as "Jihad".

Because it isn't only about Muslim terrorists.

Not sure what you mean here. The Ori have parallels in every religion?

Look at the Muslim terrorists that we all hate so much and I will show you a Christian terrorist who is just as bad. The Ori followers represent any person who is taken in by religion so much that they become fanatical about it. All religions have this, thus Origin has a parallel in every religion.

By the way, to confirm that the Ori are modeled after Muslim terrorists, here's a quote from an RCC interview:
It's different from what our agenda is. And I think that type of single-mindedness certainly exists in our world. It's something we see go on around us. I think it's important for us to try and understand why people want to go to war with us, or blow up our buildings, or our airplanes.

So the Ori represent America....interesting . It is all in the interpretation my friend. If you interpret this one way, the Ori are America, the big, all-powerful entity who comes into your home to destroy your way of life. If you interpret this another way they are terrorists, the fanatical religious zealots who destroy anyone who disagrees.

This is the basis of good fiction, being relevant to today's issues while still leaving it open to viewer interpretation.

We understand. They're using a science fiction story to put forth some commentary on current events. But by generalizing so much that you use an inappropriate metaphor ("Crusade", monks in robes, etc.) you defeat the point entirely. It makes them look like they are attacking religion in general, rather than attacking the one religious practice that is abhorrent to all (Jihad). I think Dani347 said it best:

Right on the money.

They are not attacking religion in general, they are attacking religious extremism in general, which should be perfectly fine. Do you personally know any Christian who act like the Ori followers? Then they are not lumped in to the Ori metaphor. The problem here is that you think the Ori represent Muslim extremists; then you see Christian parallels in the Crusade stuff and freak out. The Ori are far more than Muslims, they are Christians who go off to war to kill the dirty Muslims, they are Scientologists who starve a teenage girl to "cure" her of schizophrenia, they are Buddhists who light themselves on fire (interesting ain't it ), and yes they are Muslims who fly planes into buildings....They are all of that because all of that is wrong. Human beings are not tools to be used, they are living things that should be allowed to believe whatever they want.

Well, he didn't mention "extremism", so did you read something into the statement? If the statement is not meant to imply any group in particular, than it has no meaning. The reference to airplanes and buildings seemed like an obvious clue about the group he was targeting. But if you want to keep pretending that it's all about "extremism", go ahead. I believe in order to make a difference you must have the courage to name names when it is appropriate.

They aren't trying to make a difference. This is a scifi show that has about 6 million viewers worldwide....no one is going to change anything because of what the Ori represent. In that quote he was definitely targetting Muslims, although as I pointed out earlier not necessarily saying that the Ori are Muslims, but that is because that is the most relevant and up to date part of the Ori metaphor. He could say, "we want to show why the Christian went on a Crusade" but no one would really care.

There is one religion which sanctions Jihad against groups of people and defends merciless slaughter. Only one.

You might want to read the Qu'ran. Islam sanctions this "Jihad" just about as much as Christianity sanctioned the Crusades. Want a Bible verse to show the violence in Christianity? Here ya go...

"If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity."
-Deuteronomy 25:11-12

And she didn't even have to be a non-believer.


Personal Note: I am a Christian so don't take any of this as a bash on Christianity, I am just not blind to the horrors supposed followers of my religion have wrought. Muslim terrorists are by far the worst ones in the current age and I see how you could see the Ori as a metaphor for them, I see it too, but I go far beyond that and see the implications for all religions.


EDIT: How about this metaphor: The Origin followers "believe" in ascension the same way all religions believe in Heaven. They see it as the final payoff for their beliefs, and the ultimate end to their life. The Ori are manipulating this belief the same way Christian priests manipulated their followers during the Crusades. They got them to do whatever they wanted so that tehy could gain personal power through the slaughter of others.

See, this is why I love the Ori so much, they are perfect fodder for metaphors. Keeping it general is a good thing, you don't want to comdemn an entire religion for something that other religions have been or are gulity of. Keeping it general says, "hey, look at your religious beliefs and see if they may be a bit overzealous and/or violent...that is wrong." Or something to that effect

[Deevil]

Well, he didn't mention "extremism", so did you read something into the statement? If the statement is not meant to imply any group in particular, than it has no meaning. The reference to airplanes and buildings seemed like an obvious clue about the group he was targeting. But if you want to keep pretending that it's all about "extremism", go ahead. I believe in order to make a difference you must have the courage to name names when it is appropriate. There is one religion which sanctions Jihad against groups of people and defends merciless slaughter. Only one.

Ohh no, there are a lot of groups, and governments, the sanction the mindles slaughter of those that don't agree with them or hold the same ideals.

Me thinks that you want it to represent extremist Islam (check that out, not an entire religion, but a very small - although vocal - subsection of it), which is fine. But I don't think that's what RCC was saying entirely. Read it that way if you like, I wont stop you... Because hey it's your opinion. But I still say he is targeting (even by that statement - and what came before and after it) extremism. Even if it was solely about those engaged in Jihad (which I doubt), it's still about extremism.

[OriKiller]

Please tell me where Muhammad said to slaughter innocents in the Qu'ran.

First of all, I never said he did. But I'm sure you are familiar with the "verses of the sword", including the infamous 9:5 which says “Slay the idolators wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush." What I said was that he sanctions Jihad. About this, more later.

Extremism is based on twisting the teachings of the original doctrine. Origin doesn't do this, but as I have said, it is a metaphor. The reason behin Origin not having to twist is probably to give us an idea of what it is like to be an extremist. They truly feel that their beliefs are "Bible Truth", so to show us an extremist type group whose beliefs actually are true helps us to get an idea of how they think.

So, if someone thinks that their beliefs are "Bible Truth", then that makes him/her an "extremist"? I think that's a little harsh.

I was not name calling. Who cares which religion killed more, all of them have killed. Compare the number of people who died in the Crusades to the number who have died in the recent "Jihad". Also Scientology hasn't been around for very long at all, yet they have killed dozens of people and bankrupted hundreds more. All religions have/had this, and to say otherwise is narrow-minded.

There is a difference between someone dying because of their own actions in following a flawed belief system and someone being killed because they do not believe. You can make a case that scientology "kills" people because it deludes them in some way, but that's different from Islamic teachings which say that the believers should slay the unbelievers.

Look at the Muslim terrorists that we all hate so much and I will show you a Christian terrorist who is just as bad.

Show me.

So the Ori represent America....interesting . It is all in the interpretation my friend. If you interpret this one way, the Ori are America, the big, all-powerful entity who comes into your home to destroy your way of life.

You would have to detach yourself from reality to come to this particular "interpretation". I'm assuming that the viewers are all sane.

If you interpret this another way they are terrorists, the fanatical religious zealots who destroy anyone who disagrees.

You are correct when you say that the Ori do not exactly match any known group, but this is the closest parallel.

This is the basis of good fiction, being relevant to today's issues while still leaving it open to viewer interpretation.

This is what they did for 8 seasons. Unfortunately, it broke down in the 9th.

They are not attacking religion in general, they are attacking religious extremism in general, which should be perfectly fine. Do you personally know any Christian who act like the Ori followers? Then they are not lumped in to the Ori metaphor. The problem here is that you think the Ori represent Muslim extremists; then you see Christian parallels in the Crusade stuff and freak out.

We can go 'round and 'round on this "extremism" stuff. If "extremism" is defined as killing those who don't believe (as it was by the earlier posters) then there is only one current religion that qualifies. There is only one religion (as far as I know) that teaches their followers to kill those who do not believe and there is only one whose followers have been consistently executing that instruction for almost 1500 years. The comments from the producer confirm the same point. Why is it "freaking out" to point out what is obvious?

The Ori are far more than Muslims, they are Christians who go off to war to kill the dirty Muslims,

Are you saying that if a Christian volunteers to serve in the U.S. Armed Forces and is deployed to the Middle East then that makes him/her an "extremist"?

they are Scientologists who starve a teenage girl to "cure" her of schizophrenia, they are Buddhists who light themselves on fire (interesting ain't it ), and yes they are Muslims who fly planes into buildings....They are all of that because all of that is wrong. Human beings are not tools to be used, they are living things that should be allowed to believe whatever they want.

I agree with that last statement. But I disagree when you say it is "wrong" for a Christian to serve in the Armed Forces. I know many who do including some who are in Afghanistan and Iraq as we speak.

They aren't trying to make a difference. This is a scifi show that has about 6 million viewers worldwide....no one is going to change anything because of what the Ori represent.

Although it is not necessarily true that a show will make a difference, there are many examples of how lives were changed because of something someone saw in a movie or on a television show. People get inspiration from what they see. Dramas can motivate, challenge, depress, and anger people all in the space of an hour. I have found many SG-1 episodes to be inspiring over the years and I hope there will be more.

In that quote he was definitely targetting Muslims, although as I pointed out earlier not necessarily saying that the Ori are Muslims, but that is because that is the most relevant and up to date part of the Ori metaphor. He could say, "we want to show why the Christian went on a Crusade" but no one would really care.

Again, the Ori have not been provoked, and they are killing people for nothing more than a refusal to worship. Because of this, the Crusades are an inappropriate metaphor. The Crusades were launched in an effort to retake lands that had been taken by the Muslim conquerors. For the most part, the Crusades were territorial battles, like most wars of that era.

You might want to read the Qu'ran. Islam sanctions this "Jihad" just about as much as Christianity sanctioned the Crusades.

The Qu'ran does sanction Jihad, which is literally "striving" in English. Muhammad used the word to describe his raids on his enemies, and later Muslim clerics used it whenever war was declared in order to conquer a people and impose Sharia law. The Qu'ran is filled with exhortations to "strive hard".

Want a Bible verse to show the violence in Christianity? Here ya go...

"If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity."
-Deuteronomy 25:11-12

And she didn't even have to be a non-believer.

No, and it wouldn't have been applicable to a non-believer unless she agreed to abide by the laws of God. Since you are a Christian, I am sure you know that this verse is part of the Law (Torah) of Israel given by God for their governance after they entered the promised land. And I'm sure you also know that the Law was literally fulfilled in the person of Christ. In other words, there will be no further punishment for sin, because the ultimate punishment has already been endured by Christ. Thus, it is inaccurate to say that this verse is part of the "violence in Christianity". The only violence commanded by Christ was the violence that was to be done to him. What a contrast with the Great Prophet of Islam!

Personal Note: I am a Christian so don't take any of this as a bash on Christianity, I am just not blind to the horrors supposed followers of my religion have wrought.

Nor am I. But you got it right when you said "supposed followers".

Muslim terrorists are by far the worst ones in the current age and I see how you could see the Ori as a metaphor for them, I see it too, but I go far beyond that and see the implications for all religions.

I guess we'll just have to disagree, because I don't see that in any other religion.

EDIT: How about this metaphor: The Origin followers "believe" in ascension the same way all religions believe in Heaven. They see it as the final payoff for their beliefs, and the ultimate end to their life. The Ori are manipulating this belief the same way Christian priests manipulated their followers during the Crusades. They got them to do whatever they wanted so that tehy could gain personal power through the slaughter of others.

An interesting idea. One problem: the Popes who sent the Crusaders on their mission didn't profit from the violence. The Crusaders themselves were the ones who profited, providing they actually survived. They took the property of the people they killed and in many cases set up new cities in the defeated territories. If you wanted the SG-1 story to be a commentary on the Crusades, you would make the Doci a good guy who sends his priors off on a noble mission of some sort. When the priors see how much property they can take and how they can live an easy life by subjecting others, they decide to forget about the mission and do their own thing, but they continue to use the powers that the Ori gave them. That way, you'd have lots of worlds ruled by renegade priors and that would cause trouble for SG-1. I think that would be a better story than what they are telling now.

See, this is why I love the Ori so much, they are perfect fodder for metaphors. Keeping it general is a good thing, you don't want to comdemn an entire religion for something that other religions have been or are gulity of. Keeping it general says, "hey, look at your religious beliefs and see if they may be a bit overzealous and/or violent...that is wrong." Or something to that effect

To be honest, I'd rather not condemn any religion at all. I would rather condemn the violent actions, that is why I think it's better to have your villains be non-religious. It doesn't hurt the story any and it avoids turning people off when they otherwise might enjoy the story.

I hope you don't think I'm trying to be a jerk here. I'm answering you point-by-point because I think better that way. I tend to be rather analytical and so I apologize if I seem to be nit-picky sometimes. It's a fault. No hard feelings here, just honest disagreement.

[Konman72]

First of all, I never said he did. But I'm sure you are familiar with the "verses of the sword", including the infamous 9:5 which says “Slay the idolators wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush." What I said was that he sanctions Jihad. About this, more later.

Here's some more Bible verses for you...

"So I will [Jer 21:4-10; 25:9] give over all Judah to the hand of the king of Babylon, and he will carry them away as [Jer 13:10; 52:27] exiles to Babylon and will slay them with the sword. "

"Against the land of [a]Merathaim, go up against it, And against the inhabitants of [b](A)Pekod. Slay and utterly destroy them," declares the LORD, "And do according to all that I have commanded you"
-Jeremiah 50:21

"I will also cut off the [Ps 2:10; 141:6; Amos 5:7, 12; 6:12] judge from her midstAnd slay all her [Job 12:21; Is 40:23] princes with him," says the LORD."

"I saw the Lord standing beside the [Amos 3:14] altar, and He said,"Smite the capitals so that the [Zeph 2:14] thresholds will shake,And [Ps 68:21; Hab 3:13] break them on the heads of them all!Then I will [Amos 7:17] slay the rest of them with the sword;They will [Jer 11:11] not have a fugitive who will flee,Or a refugee who will escape. "
-Amos 9:1

"But (M)these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and (N)slay them in my presence.""
-Luke 19:27 (said by Jesus)

"Then that lawless one [Dan 7:25; 8:25; 11:36; 2 Thess 2:3; Rev 13:5-ff] will be revealed whom the Lord will slay [Is 11:4; Rev 2:16; 19:15] with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the [1 Tim 6:14; 2 Tim 1:10; 4:1, 8; Titus 2:13] appearance of His coming;"
- 2 Thessalonians 2:8

"the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers. "
-Luke 12:46

Christianity has some violence in it too.

So, if someone thinks that their beliefs are "Bible Truth", then that makes him/her an "extremist"? I think that's a little harsh.

I was unclear, if someone holds views such as "kill unbelievers" or something to that effect, and then holds them to be completely and utterly true, such that any argument against them makes that person an unbeliever who should be slaughtered, that is what I am against.

There is a difference between someone dying because of their own actions in following a flawed belief system and someone being killed because they do not believe. You can make a case that scientology "kills" people because it deludes them in some way, but that's different from Islamic teachings which say that the believers should slay the unbelievers.

But this is where you are being too literal. Just because the Origin belivers kill because of unbelief does not mean that is the only action being condemned. I take it to mean all religious violence is wrong, as evidenced by the earlier Goa'uld story arc. Also, check out this. Scientology also holds a belief that unbelievers are "fair game."

Show me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism

Abortion clinics being blown up, homosexuals being killed etc.

You would have to detach yourself from reality to come to this particular "interpretation". I'm assuming that the viewers are all sane.

Not really, he says he wants us to see why they flew planes into our buildings. This leads me to believe he is wanting to protray them in a good light rather than teh bad light we already see them in. If the only reason he was wanting to protray was "they are religious zealots" then that would be pointless, we already know that. But if it is to show us how we have encroached on their land and forced our beliefs by the poit of the sword (not saying we have, but it is what they think we have done), then that is a powerful metaphor.

You are correct when you say that the Ori do not exactly match any known group, but this is the closest parallel.

I agree, but the closest parallel does not make it the only parallel.

This is what they did for 8 seasons. Unfortunately, it broke down in the 9th.

You are the one saying that the Ori represent Muslim terrorists so I don't see how it "broke down" except that it got more generalised, which should be a good thing. It makes it more potent and powerful since it affects more people.

We can go 'round and 'round on this "extremism" stuff. If "extremism" is defined as killing those who don't believe (as it was by the earlier posters) then there is only one current religion that qualifies. There is only one religion (as far as I know) that teaches their followers to kill those who do not believe and there is only one whose followers have been consistently executing that instruction for almost 1500 years. The comments from the producer confirm the same point. Why is it "freaking out" to point out what is obvious?

You are freaking out because it also applies to Christianity. Remember, we only see the bad Muslims, who have had their religion twisted to suit other purposes. Ask any Muslim in Sudi Arabia and he will tell you about the evil, violent Christians who are the only ones causing any trouble.

Are you saying that if a Christian volunteers to serve in the U.S. Armed Forces and is deployed to the Middle East then that makes him/her an "extremist"?


I agree with that last statement. But I disagree when you say it is "wrong" for a Christian to serve in the Armed Forces. I know many who do including some who are in Afghanistan and Iraq as we speak.

Interesting that you took it that way. I was speaking about the Crusades. I highly respect military officers.

Although it is not necessarily true that a show will make a difference, there are many examples of how lives were changed because of something someone saw in a movie or on a television show. People get inspiration from what they see. Dramas can motivate, challenge, depress, and anger people all in the space of an hour. I have found many SG-1 episodes to be inspiring over the years and I hope there will be more.

As have I, but season 9 seems to be upping the number for me.

Again, the Ori have not been provoked, and they are killing people for nothing more than a refusal to worship. Because of this, the Crusades are an inappropriate metaphor. The Crusades were launched in an effort to retake lands that had been taken by the Muslim conquerors. For the most part, the Crusades were territorial battles, like most wars of that era.

That is why the Crusades are not the only part of the metaphor. If you want to be this literal then you can't apply the Ori to Islam either since their conflict with us was brought on by our intrusion into their land, not by us being unbelievers, and their conflict with Israel is due to their beliefs about land (any land that becomes a Muslim territory must stay that way forever, so when Israel was taken away from them it needed to be taken back)

The Qu'ran does sanction Jihad, which is literally "striving" in English. Muhammad used the word to describe his raids on his enemies, and later Muslim clerics used it whenever war was declared in order to conquer a people and impose Sharia law. The Qu'ran is filled with exhortations to "strive hard".

Many Muslim scholars would disagree with you, such as the ones saying the current Osama Bin Ladin Jihad does not follow scripture.

No, and it wouldn't have been applicable to a non-believer unless she agreed to abide by the laws of God. Since you are a Christian, I am sure you know that this verse is part of the Law (Torah) of Israel given by God for their governance after they entered the promised land. And I'm sure you also know that the Law was literally fulfilled in the person of Christ. In other words, there will be no further punishment for sin, because the ultimate punishment has already been endured by Christ. Thus, it is inaccurate to say that this verse is part of the "violence in Christianity". The only violence commanded by Christ was the violence that was to be done to him. What a contrast with the Great Prophet of Islam!

I give you the verse from earlier again...

"But (M)these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and (N)slay them in my presence.""
-Luke 19:27 (said by Jesus)

Also, do you really think people would make the distinction between a believer and a non-believer when they were deciding whether or not to chop off a woman's hand?! Who cares, they are still chopping off her hand because she...touched her husbands penis?

I guess we'll just have to disagree, because I don't see that in any other religion.

I guess, but I assure you that it is there, Islam may be worse, but all religions have this side.

An interesting idea. One problem: the Popes who sent the Crusaders on their mission didn't profit from the violence. The Crusaders themselves were the ones who profited, providing they actually survived. They took the property of the people they killed and in many cases set up new cities in the defeated territories. If you wanted the SG-1 story to be a commentary on the Crusades, you would make the Doci a good guy who sends his priors off on a noble mission of some sort. When the priors see how much property they can take and how they can live an easy life by subjecting others, they decide to forget about the mission and do their own thing, but they continue to use the powers that the Ori gave them. That way, you'd have lots of worlds ruled by renegade priors and that would cause trouble for SG-1. I think that would be a better story than what they are telling now.

Far too literal again, if they did this then Islam would not be a part of teh metaphor as well. Also, the Crusaders may have gotten land, but the Popes and Kings got the power and money.

To be honest, I'd rather not condemn any religion at all. I would rather condemn the violent actions, that is why I think it's better to have your villains be non-religious. It doesn't hurt the story any and it avoids turning people off when they otherwise might enjoy the story.

In today's society religion needs to be condemned in some manner. Look around and you will see at least a dozen wars or conflicts being fought over religion and millions being slaughtered. That needs to stop, and while this show may not make a difference, at least they are imparting a message to the world.

I hope you don't think I'm trying to be a jerk here. I'm answering you point-by-point because I think better that way. I tend to be rather analytical and so I apologize if I seem to be nit-picky sometimes. It's a fault. No hard feelings here, just honest disagreement.

I'm the same way, this is a nice debate. I'm actually very glad you take it point by point, I have had too many people who reply to one thing and disregard the rest.


EDIT: Found [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad]this[/url article interesting. Jihad is not always a "holy war" as we perceive it in the west, and views on it are as differing as views on any Christian belief.