The "Serious Issues With The Ori" thread.

[Myn McGeek, Third Sentinel]

Exactly

Right well, even if they are supposed symbolize exremists and not all Catholics/Christians, can you at least see how I can make the connection? Whether or not you agree with me, do you at least see why I would get slightly offended?

[Deevil]

Yeah, that's true. But I was refering to Christianity as a whole and not neccesarily each and every Christian denomination. There are some that contradict, not just each other, but what some view as what it means to be Christian. And some groups will call themselves Christian when they really aren't. Which.. pretty much means the same thing. Sadly, it's gotten rather confusing.

It's times like that that I'm glad I'm Roman Catholic . It's the first, the original, the oldest. Man, aren't I the coolest?

kidding

But we're getting a bit OT.

Funny thing about the Roman Catholic religion is that they re-wrote and removed some books from the bible... But that's a different story all together .

But, when you say Christianity, it encompus' all Christian denominations. Even the ones the Catholic church (which is all of them) don't agree with, it's still 'Christian'.

Ahh, it's like the thousands of English dialects.

[Konman72]

Right well, even if they are supposed symbolize exremists and not all Catholics/Christians, can you at least see how I can make the connection? Whether or not you agree with me, do you at least see why I would get slightly offended?

Most definitely. I was getting a little worried for a while about what direction they were going but they seem to have firmly set the Ori in an extremist/violent metaphor rather than a religious one imo. But I can still see how others could view them differently.

[Myn McGeek, Third Sentinel]

But, when you say Christianity, it encompus' all Christian denominations. Even the ones the Catholic church (which is all of them) don't agree with, it's still 'Christian'.

There are some that claim to be Christian, but go against some of the things that make Christians Christian, go against what most Christians believe. Besides, when Cameron Mitchel said that Christianity was based off love I think he meant that it was orginally based off love and/or founded on love. These other denominations didn't come up untill fairly recently in Christianity's history.

But I was refering to Christianity as a whole and not neccesarily each and every Christian denomination.

Perhaps I should have said, "I was refering to what it means to really be Christian, not neccesarily what each and every Christian denomination believes, as some of them go against what most Christians believe, or, what it means to be Christian." Most Christians believe that love is one of the most important things, that God is a god of love. Love is supposed to be the corner stone of Christian belief. The denominations that "teach the Gosbel according to fire and brimstone...", that are " based on fear and torment, not of love", aren't going along with that.

And like I said, when it comes to all the different denominations and what they believe, it can be rather confusing...

Ahh, it's like the thousands of English dialects.

Exactly.

[Deevil]

There are some that claim to be Christian, but go against some of the things that make Christians Christian, go against what most Christians believe. Besides, when Cameron Mitchel said that Christianity was based off love I think he meant that it was orginally based off love and/or founded on love. These other denominations didn't come up untill fairly recently in Christianity's history.

Actually, in days past - not so modern, Christianity and Catholosism have actually used fear and terror to keep their people under-wraps. It isn't new really, just there are more outspoken denominations now.

Perhaps I should have said, "I was refering to what it means to really be Christian, not neccesarily what each and every Christian denomination believes, as some of them go against what most Christians believe, or, what it means to be Christian." Most Christians believe that love is one of the most important things, that God is a god of love. Love is supposed to be the corner stone of Christian belief. The denominations that "teach the Gosbel according to fire and brimstone...", that are " based on fear and torment, not of love", aren't going along with that.

Lookie here, we have Christian Extremists. Aren't they a fun punch to play with. Messing with the tennants in order to make what they are doing right. It's very disturbing actually.

And like I said, when it comes to all the different denominations and what they believe, it can be rather confusing...

Hell when it comes to people in the same denomination and what they believe it can be very confusing also. Belief systems, even when part of an organised religion, are vvery individual.

[Myn McGeek, Third Sentinel]

-EDIT-

Everyone who saw this before it was edited... erm, sorry about that.

[OriKiller]

I also would point you here.

I read the article you cite here. It is written by Mohammad Omar Farooq, a college professor and Muslim apologist who has also contributed to counterpunch.org, the rabidly anti-semitic website founded by Alexander Cockburn (I'm not implying that you have such sympathies, just letting you know since you might not be aware of this). Mr. Farooq in his article does not deny the Prophet's violent actions. He justifies them because the ultimate goal is "peace and justice". Like I said, the peace he is talking about is that which occurs when you're enemies are dead. But let me also acknowledge that the Prophet didn't kill all the people in the lands he conquered. Some of them were allowed to live as slaves and/or concubines. Others were given the choice to a) convert to Islam, b) live as a dhimmi (second class citizen) and pay the jizya (head tax), or c) be killed. At least he gave them a choice.

This is, again, something we will agree to disagree on. It is all a matter of interpretation. I still know that Islam can be violent, but the violence is usually a matter of twisting and interpreting things to suit an interest. Islam, however, is the worst in terms of violence.

Ask yourself this question: why is Islam the worst? Why are there thousands of al qaeda terrorists and thousands more in other terrorist organizations while the abortion bombers you cite represent only a handful of people? I can easily see the violence inherent in the Qur'an verses that I cited without any need to twist them. I also am aware the the violent verses came later and that they abrogate the peaceful verses. Where is this "twisting" required?

I never said they were extremists. They represent extremists. You say that they don't because they are not actually extremists, but then say they represent "Bible believing Christians", but how many of those do you know who kill people? Representing things is a non-literal thing, some things won't match up. Do you really think the producers wish to codemn the old lady who goes to church every sunday over the extremist Christian that violently murders an abortion doctor?

In method, they represent neither. In appearance, they represent anyone who is faithful to the calling of a religious leader, whether peaceful or not. That is why I have a problem with them. If the producers were not trying to make any statement about society or current events, they could left religion out altogether and just gave us a new bad guy. But if they're trying to make a statement about the dangers inherent in following doctrine too closely, they should at least make sure they narrow the focus so they do not implicate people who are innocent. The current metaphor implicates all who closely adhere to a religious doctrine under the title of "extremist" (at least that is what seems to be the consensus of many on this thread). But I see no danger from Christian or Jewish "extremists". I would happily sit in the middle of a convention of the most fundamentalist Christian sect (say the Nazarenes or maybe Southern Baptists) without having any fear for my safety. Indeed, I would feel safer there than at a science fiction convention (no offense, I attend one every year). Likewise I would not fear for my safety at a conference hall filled with Orthodox Jews. But a convention of fundamentalist Muslims would cause me grave concern.

[Konman72]

But I see no danger from Christian or Jewish "extremists". I would happily sit in the middle of a convention of the most fundamentalist Christian sect (say the Nazarenes or maybe Southern Baptists) without having any fear for my safety. Indeed, I would feel safer there than at a science fiction convention (no offense, I attend one every year). Likewise I would not fear for my safety at a conference hall filled with Orthodox Jews. But a convention of fundamentalist Muslims would cause me grave concern.

What do you call the abortion clinic bombers and Crusaders?

The main problem is that you are saying the Ori represent extremists and then defining extremists as actual followers of the religion that they adhere to when the opposite is usually true. By that definition the Ori do not represent extremists since Christianity has always been held to a high degree in Stargate. The Ori truly represent anyone who uses religion to justify violence. Whether that fits in with the religion or not doesn't matter, it is only the use of violence in the name of religion that is being condemned. Does this condemn fundamentalist Muslims? Yep. It also condemns the "Christians" that blow up abortion clinics, kill doctors, and persecute Muslims for the actions of a minority. Those are not true Christians though, the terrorist Muslims may be, that is a debate that we will have to agree to disagree on, but they are definitely a part of the Ori metaphor since they use violence in the name of their religion. How many "extremist" Christians (by your definition) do you know that use violence? How many are even remotely similar to the Ori followers? None. The "Christians" that are contained within the Ori metaphor are the ones I have mentioned over and over again, the terrorists who use the Bible and Christianity in a way it was never intended to be used, to promote violence.

[Cam_Mitchell]

Well, I.. uh.. I've got issues with the Ori.... (bet you didn't know that)

My reasons for... disliking the Ori so, you ask? It may be just me, but I see way too many parallels with the Ori to Christianity.

-Edit- I decided I didn't need to keep these examples- ...Just as I can't ignore other things, like the fact that in "Beachhead" the prior is mumbling in something that sounds just like Latin! And there are many other things that I can't think of right now.

But I keep seeing things that strike me as either anti Christian or even sometimes anti religion! I am really disappointed with all of this and I hope they either change some things or get rid of the Ori OR even keep the Ori but also have thing to counter it, something pro religion, pro Christianity.

So far, they've been pretty good with this. Every time they had anything that seemed anti religion they did counter it with something almost pro, but I'm just not seeing it with the whole Ori plot. I've always liked the fact that Stargate was never blatantly anti religion, which was kind of a relief coming from watching Star Trek, which did have blatantly anti religion eps. But I'm starting to get worried about that.

Now, even if I am wrong and even if they aren't really doing anything wrong, the fact that I'm seeing any of this means they are at least walking a fine line. If I'm seeing these things then I'm sure I'm not the only one.

So, if any of TPTB see this, please do something about it. Please clear up the confusion at least a little.

Um, I'm sorry if I've offended anyone here...-Edited out unneccesary stuff- ...Yes, I know it's just a show and what they say or do doesn't really matter, but if they continue to make me uncertain and confused about this whole thing then I may just stop watching it. Because, yes, it is just a show and I am just a fan and this fan is just going to stop being one if TPTB don't do something about it!

Erm... uh.... hmm. Sorry 'bout that.... [-EDIT- What I meant by that was if the show makes me this uncomfortable then it's not entertaining anymore [scifi = entertainment] which is why I would stop watching it. -Another EDIT: But uncomfortable is something I'd rather not feel when watching something that's supposed to be entertainment. Don't get me wrong, I definitely won't stop watching it! Don't you worry about that! ....so I lied. No, actually, I was trying to make a point and got carried away. Ahem. Yeah.]

So, am I completely insane and alone or does anyone out there actually agree with me?

-----------------------
-MORE EDITs- I've decided to add some stuff from later in the thread here so that people just reading it for the first time can kinda get cought up a little easier.

A few people have argued that Origin represents any kind of extremism.

(me answering Deevil's statement, I would never directly attribute them to Catholosism or any version of Christianity.) See, it doesn’t have to be direct... Whether TPTB were trying to or not, they definitely have reminded, not just me, but a lot of people of Christianity. And putting the Ori in a bad light could very well make people see Christianity in a bad light as well, whether consciously or subconsciously...
But when they start making allusions to an existing religion and put the thing making the allusions in a bad light, make it evil, then they really start walking a fine line, in my opinion...

Something I did forget was: (jenks) Well isn't Latin ment to be very similar to Ancient, like it probably originated from a variation of the language the surviving Ancients were speaking on earth...

(me) Still, nowadays the Catholic mass is really the only place where they still speak Latin, so you can see how that bugged me. Not to mention that the priors look kinda like monks. And with him speaking something that sounds like Latin and holding that staff (which reminds me of bishops’ staffs) and wearing a robe with a hood like a monk, you can’t deny that it looks (to some) like a stab at the Catholic church.

(Dani347) It's the words that bother me. They're too close to Biblical words... Or if they actually tried being original and came up with their own ideas (believe me, we're not stupid we'd be able to understand the concept that these beings with an unfamiliar religion were trying to force worship) that would be better. If they had some devout people of Christian.. [or] other actual religions and made up religions fighting the Ori along with people who didn't believe in a higher power that would help. Right now, the feel isn't "religious extremists" it's "religious which means extremists."

Deevil and I then discussed how she thought I was generalizing, which took up a few pages along with some OT stuff.

(me)Well, whether or not anyone feels the same way I do in this matter, at least the fact that we've had this long discussion (or argument if you're PG15) will hopefully at very least get TPTB to thinking.

(Skydiver) to me, the extremists that lept to my mind with the Ori are the Muslim Extremists. The ones that would happily blow me to bits because i'm not one of thier own and therefore not worthy of living. That's one of hte main reasons i don't care for the Ori. They're a little too timely. A little too close to home.

(me) So, you (ParadoxRealities) are saying that you think they may be trying to make Christians (and others) think about what their religion really means and not to take their religion into their own hands and deform it to their wants and needs and to lose the whole meaning of it? That makes sense, I suppose... *ponders more*

(ParadoxRealities) not only that, but to not feel compelled to stand up for the people who use their religion as a weapon. to realize that when people say "damn insurgents/terrorists/bad missionaries/Medieval Catholic Church/Crusades/etc" they're not saying "damn Islam/Christianity/etc"

OriKiller and others discussed the meaning of extremism, where you find it today and whether or not the Ori represent it.

(Konman72) we are actually having a very enjoyable discussion about whether the Ori represent Islam alone or many/all religion. If it is the former, as OriKiller says, then the allusions to the Crusades are out of line, but if it is the latter then they are a means of condemning Christian doctrines that allow for violence, or just Christians who were manipulated into committing violence.

And I just thought I'd add these: (me) If you don't agree with me then that's fine! Just voice your opinions and I'll post mine and we'll both be on our merry way!... I didn't mean to say that they meant to "attack" anyone's religion… No hard feelings, anyone! …Please, my point in making this thread was simply to point out my reasons for not liking the Ori and for other people to think about what I have to say and maybe even for TPTB to see it and think about it. As their reason for the Ori was to make people think, it's my reason for making this thread.

Im a cristian and i dont think that TPTB would step on such dangerous ground, they could loose the program alltogether if they went religious and religious groups would go mental and they havent have they?

--Gaz--

[OriKiller]

What do you call the abortion clinic bombers and Crusaders?

You're talking about two different things. The Crusaders were basically the Army of the Western world. In those days, anyone who lived in an area designated as "Christian" was referred to that way regardless of their actual beliefs. Religion and state were combined as the Pope had as much authority as the Kings (if not more). The cross was as much a national symbol as a religious one. Thus, the Crusades were not religious wars in the way we think of them today. They were attacks on Muslims who had attacked and conquered major parts of the Byzantine empire. The Byzantines in Constantinople were being threatened and so they appealed to the Pope for help. It was a lot like that scene in "The Return of the King" where they light the beacons to get help from Rohan because they are threatened by an aggressive enemy. The "Christians" in this case were a bunch of Westerners who were coming to the rescue of their allies in the East. They were nominal Christians but mostly they were just ordinary men responding to a call to arms. Their abuses were typical of warfare in those days. What happened was tragic but it was inevitable when that many men are walking through a foreign land heavily armed.

As for the abortion bombers, we're only talking about a handful of people, and I would consider them nut cases. In the case of abortion bomber Eric Rudolph, he doesn't even claim to be a Christian. He said his views are closer to atheism. Regardless, I wouldn't consider him an "extremist" among atheists. These people are mentally ill, in my opinion.

The main problem is that you are saying the Ori represent extremists and then defining extremists as actual followers of the religion that they adhere to when the opposite is usually true. By that definition the Ori do not represent extremists since Christianity has always been held to a high degree in Stargate. The Ori truly represent anyone who uses religion to justify violence. Whether that fits in with the religion or not doesn't matter, it is only the use of violence in the name of religion that is being condemned. Does this condemn fundamentalist Muslims? Yep. It also condemns the "Christians" that blow up abortion clinics, kill doctors, and persecute Muslims for the actions of a minority. Those are not true Christians though, the terrorist Muslims may be, that is a debate that we will have to agree to disagree on, but they are definitely a part of the Ori metaphor since they use violence in the name of their religion. How many "extremist" Christians (by your definition) do you know that use violence? How many are even remotely similar to the Ori followers? None. The "Christians" that are contained within the Ori metaphor are the ones I have mentioned over and over again, the terrorists who use the Bible and Christianity in a way it was never intended to be used, to promote violence.

The Ori as a metaphor is problematic for two reasons:
1. The followers are not twisting the religion, just following faithfully.
2. Christianity teaches sacrifice, not violence. Therefore, a faithful follower would never do what the Ori do.

The metaphor fits Islamic "extremists" because they are faithfully following their holy book and their Prophet. It does not fit any other religion even when talking about "extreme" followers (as I define them).

I think what you're saying is that TPTB is trying to make a statement that killing for religious reasons is bad. If so, it's a pointless statement because all killing of innocents is bad regardless of the reason. Religious motives do not make them any more or less objectionable. As the Tick would say: "evil is just plain bad." Besides, the people who kill for religion are 99% Muslims anyway, so again the metaphor would implicate a lot of innocent people.

[Myn McGeek, Third Sentinel]

Most definitely. I was getting a little worried for a while about what direction they were going but they seem to have firmly set the Ori in an extremist/violent metaphor rather than a religious one imo. But I can still see how others could view them differently.

Yeah, well...

It seems my argument is failing, anyway. And my thread is dying. *sigh* It's a lost cause.

But it was nice that it sparked some nice and (mostly) flame/bash free debates/discussions.

[ParadoxRealities]

ah well. i guess its dead. however, i did find this interesting.

The current metaphor implicates all who closely adhere to a religious doctrine under the title of "extremist" (at least that is what seems to be the consensus of many on this thread). But I see no danger from Christian or Jewish "extremists". I would happily sit in the middle of a convention of the most fundamentalist Christian sect (say the Nazarenes or maybe Southern Baptists) without having any fear for my safety. Indeed, I would feel safer there than at a science fiction convention (no offense, I attend one every year). Likewise I would not fear for my safety at a conference hall filled with Orthodox Jews. But a convention of fundamentalist Muslims would cause me grave concern.

this is interesting, because i'd go for most orthodox Jews and Muslims before Christians, and well before earlier Roman Catholics; no offense meant to any. i've been harassed much more often by orthodox Christians than by orthodox Muslims or Jews. actually, i've never been harassed by a Muslim or Jew. all the Muslims and Jews i know are incredibly tolerant, and i wouldn't mind at all sitting in the middle of a room with them. get all my orthodox Christian friends and acquaintances together and you'd have a different story entirely (this is not to say that all of them are intolerant, they're not). i know that's not extremism, but to me it does show that many orthodox Muslims are in no way violent, and that a lot of it (read: bascially all) depends on the situation.

[OriKiller]

this is interesting, because i'd go for most orthodox Jews and Muslims before Christians, and well before earlier Roman Catholics; no offense meant to any. i've been harassed much more often by orthodox Christians than by orthodox Muslims or Jews. actually, i've never been harassed by a Muslim or Jew. all the Muslims and Jews i know are incredibly tolerant, and i wouldn't mind at all sitting in the middle of a room with them. get all my orthodox Christian friends and acquaintances together and you'd have a different story entirely (this is not to say that all of them are intolerant, they're not). i know that's not extremism, but to me it does show that many orthodox Muslims are in no way violent, and that a lot of it (read: bascially all) depends on the situation.

What I meant was real danger of life and limb. The "harassment" that you speak of is of no concern to me.

[ParadoxRealities]

What I meant was real danger of life and limb. The "harassment" that you speak of is of no concern to me.

i know. what i'm saying is that i would feel in danger of life and limb at all, that the most i would fear is harassment, and that most Muslims are as a lot of people think. in fact, from my POV, they're more tolerant than Christians on the whole.

and no, i'm an atheist.

[Myn McGeek, Third Sentinel]

You reawakened my thread! Yayz