Who should lead SG1?(Spoilers)

[warmbeachbrat]

Wow, Dani, some interesting things to think about. I'm going to have to reply to that later.

[thegatebuilders]

everyones opinion has been justified. yes carter is tectically superior to Michelle but it would totally undermine the integrity of the show having a woman as the lead character. I am no sexiest, in fact i am a great admirer of Captain Jane Wier's success in Star Trek Voyager but this show has been moduled on Colnel O'Neil's personality and i doubt their will be much of a support base left for the show if you take away his few flaws and replace them with Carter's strength.

on the other hand, i am not a great admirer of Michelle and i think the best person for the Job is Teal'c. Yes i know he is an alien but he has been with the Stargate Command just has long anyone and he has saved this planet many times, earning him the right to call himself the human of Earth. even better he is in the Jaffa high council, which makes him more qualify to negotiate than any of the two (excluding daniel) in contest.

[Dani347]

everyones opinion has been justified. yes carter is tectically superior to Michelle but it would totally undermine the integrity of the show having a woman as the lead character. I am no sexiest, in fact i am a great admirer of Captain Jane Wier's success in Star Trek Voyager but this show has been moduled on Colnel O'Neil's personality and i doubt their will be much of a support base left for the show if you take away his few flaws and replace them with Carter's strength.

I'm confused. Even if the show was modeled around Jack's personality (I don't agree) and having Sam's personality would lose the support base (again I disagree) I don't see how having a woman character in general would be a problem. Are you saying any woman would be a bad idea, or are you talking about Sam in particular? I don't think this support base you see supported Jack because he was a man. And, they can easily just write a woman with flaws and strengths. BTW, both Jack and Sam have strengths and flaws.

[warmbeachbrat]

Sorry this post is so long--ten eps is a lot of material. I'm just posting what I noticed and wrote down when reading the transcripts. We were discussing various things a couple of weeks ago, so some of it may seem kind of disconnected and not pertinent.

Avalon, part one – does not disregard advice; does not get himself into trouble
Avalon, part two – Cam, with a little help from Daniel, solves the puzzle; fights the knight and completes the mission to find the Ancient artifacts; does not disregard advice; Daniel gets himself and Vala into a bit of a jam.
Origin – completes mission Landry sent him on (doesn’t get into any trouble); Mitchell with Teal’c’s help, rescues Daniel & Vala.
The Ties that Bind – Mitchell, Daniel & Teal’c work together to complete the mission (which comes about because of Vala); snarkiness from Teal’c (stemming from Mitchell’s enthusiasm—not incompetence).
The Powers that Be – Mitchell talks them into holding a trial for Vala rather than killing her (thus saving her and Daniel in the process and allowing him to defend her); Mitchell gets sick through no fault of his own.
Beachhead – SG-1 goes on a mission and partly fails, partly succeeds (due to Vala)
Ex Deus Machina – takes Teal’c’s advice; gets SG-1 back together; saves who knows how many people by having Prometheus beam the building into space.
Babylon – disregards Teal’c’s orders for silence once (not several as has been alleged)—we have no idea what has gone on in the hours before this scene; Daniel joins in with Mitchell’s teasing of Teal’c; in covering for his teammates, he is attacked by the Sodan and captured; during his captivity, he learns a great deal and eventually comes up with a way of escape.
Prototype – stupidly pushes a button leading to a problem (although, Daniel goes to do something rather similar in “It’s Good to be King” but Sam stops him)--it does seem a little weird to ring down to an unknown destination on a highly protected planet, but I guess Daniel knows what he’s doing; it looks to me like Woolsey was more to blame than Mitchell. This is generally considered one of the best eps of the season.
The Fourth Horseman, part one – Hmmm, rather interesting discussion Mitchell and Daniel were having at the beginning; it’s also interesting that what they learned in Prototype may help them with the Ori (though, to be fair, Landry wasn’t impressed); Mitchell isn’t the main focus of this episode, but he does seem to ask the right questions and has a good grasp on the situation. I’m struck by how useful co-command can be. Sam was desperately needed to work with Orlin to come up with a cure—if she’d been in command she would have been needed elsewhere. Cam freed her up to do the science aspect of things—at least in this episode. It worked well in Babylon, too. Cam was tied up (so to speak), yet Sam was available for command.

Anyway, these are just a few (I could go on ad naseum, but unlike the Ori, I am merciful ) things I ran across when going over the transcripts.

[DEM]

But, I think the team needs someone to provide a counter argument to the leader. And, Daniel has always fulfilled that role. The leader needs someone to occasionally give them a nudge in the other direction, or to mentally slap them upside the head and tell them, "are you kidding here?" Daniel being the leader wouldn't allow him to have that role.

Hmm, well I would say that Daniel's function is more generally to provide a different POV. If you relax the assumption that Daniel is 'more right' (i.e, wiser) than everyone else (which I strongly disagree with; NO regular on the show has ever had that function), then whether he's the thesis or antithesis doesn't really matter.

But, if I had to pick a leader I'd still say Teal'c.

Ya know, Teal'c is easily my second favourite character. Nevertheless, I can't get behind this one. I've never said anything in the past because I can't clearly articulate my problems with it, and I still can't (leaving aside the alien question), but at least now I've voiced my opinion on the matter. Maybe this'll force me to think on it more.

[Dani347]

Yes, and if you do find a way to articulate your thoughts on why you don't think Teal'c should be the leader, I'd like to hear them.

As far as Daniel, there could be times when someone needs to slap him upside the head as well. But, I think the leader needs to be someone inside the whole culture. I mean the 'military' (I'm using the term loosely, since I include Teal'c in that) culture. They can't regularly have a different view. The person who is outside the culture and does have a different view shouldn't be the leader. Not because of any lack of ability, but storywise, there isn't just one way to look at an issue. And, one person has to be outside to provide a different viewpoint. Daniel wouldn't be able to do that as the leader and he'd have to be assimilated too much into the military culture. Which I wouldn't want.

[scarimor]

Oh, you are so kind! I feel so, so...affirmed!

Actually, I wanted to try to point out why I felt Mitchell was capable for the job and defend the character against charges of incompetence. I guess that's a bit tangential, but there's been pages and pages of it, so I thought my natterings wouldn't be out of place.

Not tangential at all! In that case, go right ahead. I assumed you were asking because you wanted to talk about the season when you mentioned that a couple of times. You certainly don't need to ask whether it's ok to talk about Cameron re. leadership - it didn't occur to me that you were asking that! (I'm not sure why you asked now)

[warmbeachbrat]

(I'm not sure why you asked now)

To confuse you?

[ForeverSg1]

Yup. However, since I'm speaking for myself....you see where I'm going with this.

WHy does the length of time a job has been vacant matter?

How have the parameters for the job shifted? SG-1 is not doing anything now that it wasn't doing under O'Neill.
Mitchell is leading the sort of missions expected of SG-1.

Sorry, but I've only seen this charge from people who say it's the reason Carter doesn't lead.
It's very neat in that it makes them right and is impossible to disprove.
It also insults BB, saying the only reason he got his job was sexism. I fail to see how an atmosphere where gender is relevant has been created.
Perhaps, if you wish to pursue this, you could elaborate on these things.

everyones opinion has been justified. yes carter is tectically superior to Michelle but it would totally undermine the integrity of the show having a woman as the lead character. I am no sexiest, in fact i am a great admirer of Captain Jane Wier's success in Star Trek Voyager but this show has been moduled on Colnel O'Neil's personality and i doubt their will be much of a support base left for the show if you take away his few flaws and replace them with Carter's strength.

on the other hand, i am not a great admirer of Michelle and i think the best person for the Job is Teal'c. Yes i know he is an alien but he has been with the Stargate Command just has long anyone and he has saved this planet many times, earning him the right to call himself the human of Earth. even better he is in the Jaffa high council, which makes him more qualify to negotiate than any of the two (excluding daniel) in contest.

Personally I don't believe the only reason BB got his job was sexism. I'm sure he was hired because the producers felt he was the best actor to play Cameron Mitchell. I really don't think anyone is questioning that decision; however, none of us know for sure if Cameron Mitchell was originally written to be a Lt. Colonel and meant to lead SG-1. We do not know if there were outside influences that caused this decision to be made; therefore, I do not believe it is inappropriate for some of us to believe that it may have been a sexist move.

I think it's a common assumption that most Canadian shows are cast with an American lead, but this does not mean that actors like Michael Shanks and Amanda are not deserving of a lead role simply because they are Canadians. It only means that the people who are calling the shots( in this case Sci-Fi and Sony/MGM ) are requesting certain conditions from the shows producers and that includes that the lead be an American.

The show could have just as easily brought in an American female actress to replace RDA's leading role, but they didn't. Why? There is nothing about Mitchell's role that would have required him to be a male character. It's not that the show needed any more testerone in it. I think MS and CJ do quite well in that aspect. So why, if not for the old sexist way of thinking that a man must be the lead?

Honestly, I could have lived with Sam not having command of SG-1 had the writers written things better, but they've done a truly shoddy job in my opinion and it's left me with a bitter taste in my mouth.

Sam's not your favorite character. I understand that. You like Mitchell. I understand that too, nor will I ever try to change your opinion. However I seriously doubt there is anything anyone can say that will change my opinions that AT/Sam's roles on the show/SG-1 weren't directly altered due to outside influences and sexist opinions.

[DEM]

First, Sam was team leader in season 8, and why she was is irrelevant. She was. Second, I've always preferred her as 2IC. Even in season 8 (and I know there will be a lot of counter arguments, but I can't help how I see things) there always seemed to be an atmosphere of Jack still being right in the thick of things of SG1, and still being Colonel O'Neill instead of General. ... But, with Jack being as important a character as he was, and with tptb determined to keep him to that amount of importance, it made it easier to still see Jack as the leader, even though Sam was the leader. But, that does not mean I'm pretending season 8 didn't exist or anything like that. TPTB could have written season 8 to really minimize Jack's role (RDA wanted out, I don't think he would have felt slighted in the least) or to really separate his identity as General from his identity as Colonel. They didn't.

remembered what i forgot

1. I'm not sure how your preference for Carter as 2IC follows from the writing issues in S8. Were those actually meant to be separate? I do understand why one would continue to think of Carter as 2IC....
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2. The writing of O'Neill & Carter in S8 was simply a portent of things to come. IOW, it's just another example of the writing staff's inability to clearly differentiate actor roles from character functions. For example, should AT have had to goto RCC and ask him to add beats to Icon wherein we actually saw Carter leading the assault on the enemy compound? I mean, really.
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3. Finally, even though you (and other audience members) didn't really see/feel/perceive Carter as SG-1 leader in S8, as you say, she was. Now, maybe TPTB weren't 'pretending' per se, but (ISTM) that they did bank on there being a much larger percentage of fans like you who wouldn't notice. How they could think that given AT's tenure on the show and the prominence they themselves gave her/Carter is beyond me. I suspect drugs. Or maybe Beezlebub.

P.S. I wonder what TPTB would have done had AT not been away the first 5 eps....

[Dani347]

remembered what i forgot[LIST=1][*]I'm not sure how your preference for Carter as 2IC follows from the writing issues in S8. Were those actually meant to be separate? I do understand why one would continue to think of Carter as 2IC....

I didn't mean it as directly linking, except I was talking about Sam that whole time. It followed merely as that was the second thing that came to my mind. Maybe I should have said, "Sam was the leader in season 8, however, I still prefer her as being 2IC. No, you know what? It does follow from the writing issues. They didn't want to give up RDA's importance on the show, and so they shifted the importance of SG1 leader to SGC leader. And, like I said, the demeanor and even dress helped to make it seem (to me) that Jack could very well have to correct himself from saying that he was the leader of SG1. I wouldn't be surprised if part of him still saw himself that way. If they would have backed off on Jack, and if they would have had more episodes off world -the majority of the episodes, where being at the SGC and with Jack was only a small part, and they would have shown Sam leading more, it would have helped make me see Sam as being written as leading. To me, they made her the leader (we're clear on this right? I'm not and have never disputed that) but they didn't write her leading that much. They didn't show it. They spent more time showing Jack.
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deleted in light of next post.

[DEM]

darn, just when i was coming back to delete the post.

Wait a minute. When did I say I didn't notice that Sam was the leader?

bad choice of words. meant wouldn't notice she'd been replaced as in notice-notice. some re-phrase of "'didn't really see/feel/perceive Carter as SG-1 leader in S8' so wouldn't actually see/feel/perceive a difference in S9". no offence intended.

[Lightsabre]

The Fourth Horseman, part one – Hmmm, rather interesting discussion Mitchell and Daniel were having at the beginning; it’s also interesting that what they learned in Prototype may help them with the Ori (though, to be fair, Landry wasn’t impressed); Mitchell isn’t the main focus of this episode, but he does seem to ask the right questions and has a good grasp on the situation. I’m struck by how useful co-command can be. Sam was desperately needed to work with Orlin to come up with a cure—if she’d been in command she would have been needed elsewhere. Cam freed her up to do the science aspect of things—at least in this episode. It worked well in Babylon, too. Cam was tied up (so to speak), yet Sam was available for command.

THis actually highlights the point I've been trying to make all along.
Sam's science duties do not mesh well with command. In this case, had Sam been sole leader, it would have been a decision to either pull her from the lab or send SG-1 out understrength with it's 2IC in charge.
Isn't it far better to have a leader that, absent mischance or act of god, is never going to be pulled in two like that? It just seems to me that Carter's command duties and her science duties would always be a tug of war.
It's better to put in somone who can give 100% to the task and let Carter give her task 100%.

[scifi_girl]

I think that, while it won't be too late for TPTB to rectify the co-command situation, they are never going to be able to do it in a way that satisfies everybody.

The best time to return Sam to command was 'Beachhead' or shortly afterwards, or better still, never to have removed her from command. A promotion to full colonel would satisfy me, and mean that it wouldn't be demoting Mitchell but I would lay odds that there would be others who would complain.

Have Sam take the lead in missions - leave Mitchell as official leader if absolutely necessary, put Sam back in command if not - and show Mitchell following her lead and example so that when the time comes for Sam to leave the show, Mitchell will be at least somewhat believable leading whoever stays around.

good post, and i agree with what you said. i would like to see sam back in command. i just think that if they are going to sort this out then they need to do it at the start of season 10, sooner rather than later in my opinion.

[Lightsabre]

I think gender had something to do with it. I'm sorry I don't have secret videos of tptb with cigars in their "Men Only" casting room chanting "Girl's suck! Girl's suck!" And, anyone is free to disagree. In fact, when I post an opinion, if possible, I try to back it up with why I feel a certain way, but I don't want to have to feel pressured to prove why my opinion is right or why anyone else should feel that way. And, I don't think it's an insult to BB at all. Speaking for myself, BB is a fine actor, and the role that gender played doesn't change that. I think he's done a good job here. Not to the level he's done on Farscape, but I've enjoyed him here, and felt a few scenes stood out. But, even if there wasn't a gender thing, fact is, getting hired in movies and tv isn't always just about talent. People get hired for all sorts of things. I'm sure tptb wouldn't hire anyone just because he was a man.

However, for it to be sexism, the deciding vote has to be gender.
FOr all we know, TPTB had an open casting call and chose BB from that.
FOr all we know, they offered it to CB first and she knocked it back(not likely, I know)
We don't KNOW the criteria they used, so we cannot say with certainty that gender was involved.
However, they had a winning show dynamic with 1 woman and 3 men. When they had to replace one of the men, it's not suprising they put in a man.
A lot of the 'sexism' complaint seems to be coming(and I'm not talking about your post here Dani) from teh fact that a woman WAS team leader and replaced with a man.
This is NOT sexism. Sexism is when gender is the deciding factor. IE, if two applicants have the same skills and qualifications, it's sexism to pick the woman over the man because she is a woman.
This was not the case here, as Dani said above.
I agree that gender is a factor in any decision, and in the industry, I just see no proof that it was the deciding factor in this instance.