Who should lead SG1?(Spoilers)

[Madeleine]

Carter's first allegience is the the militray, science second.

I disagree. She joined the Air Force to get a chance to be part of NASA. Space travel, not a military calling is what drew her to the Air Force. She's a soldier by career, but a scientist by vocation and by nature.

Now, would anyone in this conversation who is actually me in disguise please let me know. I like to keep track of these things

[stargate barbie]

It's in your quote.
The alliance will know oyu have come, they have eyes everywhere.

he stated this, after mitchell went blatantly over the radar.

GALAN: who are you? What do you want?

MITCHELL: We're looking to buy some Casa.

GALAN: It is available at every market…

MITCHELL: we're looking for a sizable quantity…

GALAN: I can maybe spare you one or two carts full….

MITCHEL: huh…*looks round* how much for the whole field. *Carter gives him a look*

GALAN: This is not the way the Alliance does business….

JACKSON: as in the Lucien Alliance?

MITCHELL: *through his teeth* what other Alliances do we know?

TEAL'C: Many.

GALAN: The Lucien Alliance will know you have come…they have eyes everywhere…

he's already trying to pose as a big time dealer, before galan says the alliance will know they are there. we have no proof that the alliance actually did know they were there. and just to make sure, mitchell decides to set up a meeting.

That is exactly what I am saying. Carter could lead on non tech missions, but since they don't know beforehand which is tech and which isn't, she shouldn't lead, UNLESS a new tech can be found.
And if the heavy weapons expert is the best, he's the best. But if he's leading, somone else is filling the HW role.

and would they neccessarily know in advance what was a heavy weapons mission? and generally speaking they would know that its going to be a science based/tech mission. the only reason i say that it seems like you are saying that you don't want carter to lead because you just don't, is that i find a lot of your arguments are easily dealt with, and that they fall very flat with me. sorry.

Not arguing this dead end again.

does this mean that you can't dispute it? because i see it as a very valid point.

Let's review.
Carter has a phd.
Spent 2 years researching alien technology.
helped build spaceships.
Transferred to R&D
COnstantly says things like, "this is what I want to do'(research) or 'This is fun for me'.
Clearly, she's all about the military. I am not saying she is NOT a military officer, simply that she has always put science first.

in the military one goes where one is assigned. occasionally one requests a posting and it is granted.

carter also spent 8+ years fighting an interplanetary war. she logged over 100 hours in battle in the first gulf war.


and just to clarify. from the oxford english dictionary (which is considered the official one i believe)

abrogate. v.tr. repeal, annul, abolish. (a law or custom. abrogation. n. abrogator n.

[minigeek]

I *think* I've excised all the idiotic "two people share an opinion therefore they must share an identity" guff, but if I've missed any, then my apologies. Report any more of it that turns up. It's a nasty insult that no one should have to put up with.

You missed a couple Madeline. There's one or two where we "idiots" are quoted, you may want to "excise" those too, lest there's confusion. Cheers.

[stargate barbie]

I disagree. She joined the Air Force to get a chance to be part of NASA. Space travel, not a military calling is what drew her to the Air Force. She's a soldier by career, but a scientist by vocation and by nature.

Now, would anyone in this conversation who is actually me in disguise please let me know. I like to keep track of these things

well i'm not you but, i'm wearing an armadillo suit... does that count as a disguise?

and i disagree. she joined the military, and remained in the military even though she didn't get into nasa. her first allegiance is to the military. if its not, then she shouldn't be in it. most military officers have training in other areas, but their first allegiance is to the military. carter is a scientist within the military. IMO.

[Deevil]

I agree that Sam wanted to join NASA, but my point is that she would toe the military line because she see's Military as her first alligence, and science as her first love.

[Madeleine]

[she] remained in the military even though she didn't get into nasa.

Because she was assigned to the Stargate project.

[Uber]

well, i'm wearing an armadillo suit... does that count?

and i disagree. she joined the military, and remained in the military even though she didn't get into nasa. her first allegiance is to the military. if its not, then she shouldn't be in it. most military officers have training in other areas, but their first allegiance is to the military. carter is a scientist within the military. IMO.

Exactly.

Further, she wouldn't have pursued the dangerous job of being in a field unit. She wouldn't have become an expert marksman. She wouldn't have bothered with excelling in hand to hand combat.

If science were her only thing, then she could just as easily have quit the Air Force and become a civilian consultant and spent most if not all of her time in a lab.

[minigeek]

well, i'm wearing an armadillo suit... does that count?

and i disagree. she joined the military, and remained in the military even though she didn't get into nasa. her first allegiance is to the military. if its not, then she shouldn't be in it. most military officers have training in other areas, but their first allegiance is to the military. carter is a scientist within the military. IMO.

Exactly. She could have left the AF a long time ago if all she wanted was to pay her way through a PhD. She didn't and everything she's said and done in canon up to now points to the fact that the military; the AF is a big part of her life and the career she loves. She became a pilot, because she wanted to do that in addition to being an Astrophysicist. And she's an officer, because it's what she wants as well.

[Deevil]

Does anyone find it interesting that Sam doesn't seem to have her wings? When she wears her class A's not once have I seen her with her wings on.

Okay, this is just an asside that has nothing to do with the convo. at hand.

[Uber]

A few funny things about that Stronghold scene:

CARTER: *opens panel* if we all go we could be cut off with no way of getting back of the ship… you do it…we’ve got your back…

MITCHELL: you sure about that?

CARTER: am I gonna be able to stop you?

MITCHELL: I don’t think so…*steps into rings…* I’m in a bad mood today…*zatting oncoming Jaffa, Carter activates rings*


Funny Thing Number 1: How long did it take her to fix the rings? 30 seconds tops? She didn't seem to be overwhelmed with the responsibilities of leadership and tech.

Funny Thing Number 2: While fixing the rings (tech thing), she orders Mitchell to go. Hmm...looks like she balances tech and command quite nicely here. It's just kinda funny that the scene you chose to prove she can only be one thing at a time (or whatever), that she abrogates her role as a leader, actually shows just the opposite...that she multitasks her tech/leadership role seamlessly.

[DEM]

Does anyone find it interesting that Sam doesn't seem to have her wings? When she wears her class A's not once have I seen her with her wings on.

I've noticed. O'Neill never had them either: He wore a parachutist's badge (but he's got the added wrinkle of not having started out the series as a pilot, so ). I'm fairly certain that those badges are required, not optional, wear.

I've also noticed that costuming has the unfortunate habit of confounding credits-status with size of rack. Just look at Jacob Carter's uniform, for example.

This is why I say costuming props -- like Mitchell's flashback cluster -- are very unreliable.

[Madeleine]

CARTER: you do it…we’ve got your back…

MITCHELL: you sure about that?

CARTER: am I gonna be able to stop you?

MITCHELL: I don’t think so


...[Sam] orders Mitchell to go.

I don't see Sam ordering Mitchel to do anything. If the first line had been said alone it would have read like an order, but backed up by the follow-up comment it can't be an order at all. Carter acknowledges in her second line that she doesn't have a choice anyway, so how could the first line have been an order? It seems to me more like a blessing than an order.

JMO, as ever.

[Uber]

I don't see Sam ordering Mitchel to do anything. If the first line had been said alone it would have read like an order, but backed up by the follow-up comment it can't be an order at all. Carter acknowledges in her second line that she doesn't have a choice anyway, so how could the first line have been an order? It seems to me more like a blessing than an order.

JMO, as ever.

DO this or DO that is absolutely an order. She was the mission leader and this was understood by all. Had Mitchell not made any comments after what she said, it still would have stood. You do this and we'll back you up. Just because Sam concedes that she couldn't keep him from going doesn't make her order any less of an order.

I still hate that whole scene by the way for the ridiculously out of character way they all seem to act...but that's a whole other issue altogether.

[RealmOfX]

I don't see Sam ordering Mitchel to do anything. If the first line had been said alone it would have read like an order, but backed up by the follow-up comment it can't be an order at all. Carter acknowledges in her second line that she doesn't have a choice anyway, so how could the first line have been an order? It seems to me more like a blessing than an order.

JMO, as ever.

CARTER: *opens panel* if we all go we could be cut off with no way of getting back of the ship… you do it…we’ve got your back…

MITCHELL: you sure about that?

CARTER: am I gonna be able to stop you?

MITCHELL: I don’t think so…*steps into rings…* I’m in a bad mood today…*zatting oncoming Jaffa, Carter activates rings*

The way I see it is the first sentence is the mission commander is summing up the situation and tells someone what to do. I consider this an order.

The second sentence from Carter was definitely said with sarcasm and was in reference to Mitchell disobeying orders and running off by himself in battle. How does sarcasm negate an order?

[scarimor]

DO this or DO that is absolutely an order. She was the mission leader and this was understood by all. Had Mitchell not made any comments after what she said, it still would have stood. You do this and we'll back you up. Just because Sam concedes that she couldn't keep him from going doesn't make her order any less of an order.

I still hate that whole scene by the way for the ridiculously out of character way they all seem to act...but that's a whole other issue altogether.

Well I liked it! Of course it was an order - she was in charge of the mission. It was pretty obvious why Cam asked his question and she answered him - they were both making an observation on his current...er... momentum - both ironic. Of course if she'd wanted him to do something else she could have ordered him to - but that wasn't the point; she wanted him to go up - he was on a roll and best suited to mow down enemy jaffa, while she and Daniel were controlled and better suited to holding their defendable position and securing their retreat. Their comments didn't negate her decision, they underscored it.